John & the Basement

[tipper]

That is right. People, and specifically Patsy, use the phrase "fix the window" as if it was something that could be done by just waving one's hands at the broken pane and willing it to be fixed. But reality intrudes. A broken window is not like a broken cup; you cannot just get a tube of glue and stick the pieces together, or find a screwdriver and screws or a hammer and nails and bang it all back into one piece. To fix the pane, the window would have to have been removed from the frame, which would mean taking it off its hinges. How were the hinges attached? Nails? Screws? If screws, then were they flathead screws or phillips head? If you only have a phillips-head screwdriver, you are not necessarily going to get anywhere trying to remove a flathead screw, and if nails were used, a screwdriver is useless when you really need a hammer. Was the hinge painted over? If so, this would mean scraping away the paint around the nails or screws and the hinge plate itself. Was there an appropriate scraper in the Ramsey toolbox, or would the person doing the fixing have to bring their own?

So, let us suppose the window is now off and ready to have the glass removed. Oh, wait. One cannot just break the remaining glass, remove it, and put in a new pane. Oh, and wait some more. Panes do not come in just one universal size. So what has to be done now? The remaining glass in the pane has to be removed carefully so that a replacement can be laid in place. This requires scraping out the old glazing compound and removing the old glazing points, the small metal pieces that are embedded in the wood and hold the glass. Is there a putty tool or a glazier's tool around to use? How about some needle-nosed pliers to remove the glazier's points? These items are not normally part of the cleaning maid's kit.

Let us say that somehow, magically, the glazing compound has been scraped away, the glazier's points removed. Time to get out the bottle of linseed oil or paint primer (to keep the cleaned wood from soaking up the oil in the new glazing compound) from the old purse. Hmm? What is that? Housemaids never normally carry paint primer or linseed oil around like it was hand sanitizer? For shame.

Has anybody produced a glass cutter to make that cut-to-size pane of glass yet? The window is not going to cut its own glass, you know.

Somehow, magically, a properly-sized pane appears. It is laid into the wooden frame. New glazing points, which, by the way, nobody yet has obtained, are laid around the edge and pushed into the wooden frame to hold the glass in place. Then the fresh glazing compound, which, by the way, nobody has also yet obtained, is rolled into a thin string and pushed into the frame. Clean everything up and collect a check from the Ramseys.

I think this is not such a viable scenario.

Fixing that window would have taken about an hour, maybe an hour and a half if he ran into some problem.

When we restored our Victorian house in NH I redid 35+ large double hung sash windows. Some needed new glass, some I was able to salvage the wonderful old glass. It's not rocket science.

 

[why_nutt]

Fixing that window would have taken about an hour, maybe an hour and a half if he ran into some problem.

When we restored our Victorian house in NH I redid 35+ large double hung sash windows. Some needed new glass, some I was able to salvage the wonderful old glass. It's not rocket science.

And my point stands, because your own words prove my point. You redid your own windows. You knew what the project was going to entail before you ever did it. I wager that you did not just finish your breakfast, look around, and say as if it was the first time you had ever had the thought, "I think I'll replace the windows now," and then head to the windows immediately and start. You planned to do the job first. You had the education to research ahead of time how to do it, or you had direct experience to draw on. You had the materials prepared ahead of time. You bought those materials with your own money. You had the tape measure ready to take the measurements you needed well before you bought even a single sheet of glass. In other words, you knew exactly what needed doing before you lifted one finger towards achieving the goal.

How does this equal what Linda and Mervin were asked to do? They did not own the house. They had no reason to spend money out of their own pockets in order to buy the necessary materials. When Patsy wanted Mervin to fix the window, it was her job to make sure he had the materials he needed, by providing them. He was not a professional glazier who could be expected to have such materials on hand and bill Patsy for the use of them later. There is no evidence he repaired a broken glass pane before in his life. He was, by profession, a truck driver. Patsy was not a shy woman. When she wanted glass repaired, her job was to call a professional, unless she wanted to be a cheapskate and pay far less than professional fees.

Ultimately, it does not reflect poorly on either Linda or Mervin that the window went unrepaired. Repairing things is not merely a matter of physical labor, but also of knowledge of how to apply that labor effectively. If fault for the window's brokeness is to be dealt out, it clearly belongs to Patsy, who had household money and time a-plenty to spend in calling around to find and pay for the best repairer in Colorado. The fact that she did not reflects on a defect in her character, or, perhaps, a measure of how poor her household checking account was funded. (By the way, I idly wonder whether it was ever determined that Patsy actually had enough money in her household account to cover the check to Linda, or whether it was a bounced check waiting to happen. As the incident with the Mount McSauba donation last year showed, it is not beyond Patsy to claim that she will give someone money, and then not actually give it until she is shamed into it.)

 

[tipper]

My understanding is Merv occasionally did odd jobs around the house. I'm sure BPD asked him whether he fixed the window or not. I've never seen an answer to that. Patsy's recollection (I think) is he had been asked to fix it. She didn't need to find the best glazier in Boulder to do that job. It wasn't visible from the street. The Ramseys haven't indicated that they were very aware of energy conservation so it's possible that getting the window repaired was something they meant to get done but wasn't front and center on their list.

 

[Brefie]

Funny how Patsy can remember that, but not very important details pertaining to her daughter's brutal murder.

 

[BOESP]

I noticed something new while reading files at ACandyRose. John tells Lou Smit he wrapped presents on Christmas Day. Notice that John hints he may have gone to the wine cellar to get Christmas paper (December 25).

What follows is an excerpt but visit http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-butler-kitchen.htm for the entire story.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Butler Kitchen)

0089
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090
1 those were there.
2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the
3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the
4 wrapping paper and all the things?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either
6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.
7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping
8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there
9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have
10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I
11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would
12 have been.
13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
15 time in order to get any of these items?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
17 have been out of the question or impossible.

 

[UKGuy]

I noticed something new while reading files at ACandyRose. John tells Lou Smit he wrapped presents on Christmas Day. Notice that John hints he may have gone to the wine cellar to get Christmas paper (December 25).

What follows is an excerpt but visit http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-butler-kitchen.htm for the entire story.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Butler Kitchen)

0089
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090
1 those were there.
2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the
3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the
4 wrapping paper and all the things?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either
6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.
7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping
8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there
9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have
10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I
11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would
12 have been.
13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
15 time in order to get any of these items?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
17 have been out of the question or impossible.

BOESP,

Interesting find, so why would John want to link himself to the wine-cellar, and what were the presents?

Note his statements or recollections are qualified by a genuine ramnesic absence of memory e.g. 11 don't remember. 16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

.

 

[BOESP]

BOESP,

Interesting find, so why would John want to link himself to the wine-cellar, and what were the presents?

Note his statements or recollections are qualified by a genuine ramnesic absence of memory e.g. 11 don't remember. 16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember.

.

I was surprised when I read the interview UKGuy and my first thought was the same as yours -- why link yourself to the wine cellar? He clearly remembered wrapping presents to take to Charlevoix so why can't he remember if he walked to the basement wine cellar to get paper? His answer sounds like someone who's afraid there's trace evidence linking him to the wine cellar so he was playing offense with Smit.

I asked a few weeks ago on another thread if anyone knew anything about the pieces of colored paper listed on the warrants. If I remember correctly, the paper was found in the wine cellar either on or near JonBenet's body. I've speculated it was gift wrap paper, maybe from the package of size 12 panties???

 

[UKGuy]

I was surprised when I read the interview UKGuy and my first thought was the same as yours -- why link yourself to the wine cellar? He clearly remembered wrapping presents to take to Charlevoix so why can't he remember if he walked to the basement wine cellar to get paper? His answer sounds like someone who's afraid there's trace evidence linking him to the wine cellar so he was playing offense with Smit.

I asked a few weeks ago on another thread if anyone knew anything about the pieces of colored paper listed on the warrants. If I remember correctly, the paper was found in the wine cellar either on or near JonBenet's body. I've speculated it was gift wrap paper, maybe from the package of size 12 panties???

BOESP,
Yes could be him trying to account for trace evidence, but what in particular?

I asked a few weeks ago on another thread if anyone knew anything about the pieces of colored paper listed on the warrants. If I remember correctly, the paper was found in the wine cellar either on or near JonBenet's body. I've speculated it was gift wrap paper, maybe from the package of size 12 panties???

Sounds feasible, so why did Patsy state she placed the size-12's into JonBenet's bathroom panty drawer, and if they were gift wrapping, were they tagged with the recipient's name?

 

[Toltec]

As far as the window goes, John claimed he broke that particular window because it would be the cheapest to repair.

I know Patsy claimed going into the wine cellar Christmas Eve to retrieve some presents. She also wrapped Xmas day and night....in the basement.

Patsy also kept Burke's Birthday presents in there, wrapped in FAO Schwartz paper. One of the presents was open, kicked aside from the others.

What if Burke caught JonBenet opening one of his gifts and gave her a good whack on the head??

 

[DeeDee249]

I was surprised when I read the interview UKGuy and my first thought was the same as yours -- why link yourself to the wine cellar? He clearly remembered wrapping presents to take to Charlevoix so why can't he remember if he walked to the basement wine cellar to get paper? His answer sounds like someone who's afraid there's trace evidence linking him to the wine cellar so he was playing offense with Smit.

I asked a few weeks ago on another thread if anyone knew anything about the pieces of colored paper listed on the warrants. If I remember correctly, the paper was found in the wine cellar either on or near JonBenet's body. I've speculated it was gift wrap paper, maybe from the package of size 12 panties???

I've said that too. There is clearly shown in crime scene photos of the wineceller some wrapping paper in the corner. Not rolls of paper, but what looks like a partlally unwrapped gift. I feel that was from looking for the size 12 panties, which PR herself admitted buying for a niece as a gift.
PR lied when she said they were in JBR's drawer. If they were there, they'd have been found. One thing LE did go through in the search was JBR's underwear and drawers. They never found them because they were never there. They were in the basement, and after the crime they remaining panties were snuck out of the house. WHY? Because no intruder would have known that panties were inside the wrapped gifts in the wineceller.

 

[JMO8778]

I've said that too. There is clearly shown in crime scene photos of the wineceller some wrapping paper in the corner. Not rolls of paper, but what looks like a partlally unwrapped gift. I feel that was from looking for the size 12 panties, which PR herself admitted buying for a niece as a gift.
PR lied when she said they were in JBR's drawer. If they were there, they'd have been found. One thing LE did go through in the search was JBR's underwear and drawers. They never found them because they were never there. They were in the basement, and after the crime they remaining panties were snuck out of the house. WHY? Because no intruder would have known that panties were inside the wrapped gifts in the wineceller.

exactly ! I was just talking about that on the 'actual' thread.

 

[daffodil]

Why not just remove the panties altogether? Patsy could have said she took them off with JBs black jeans,it would have been simpler.

 

[UKGuy]

Why not just remove the panties altogether? Patsy could have said she took them off with JBs black jeans,it would have been simpler.

daffodil,
I agree with you, but imo the purpose of the size-12's was to hide any signs of a prior sexual assault.

Some say it was signs of a toileting incident, but why was she left in urine-soaked longjohns which again the Ramsey's state they dressed her in, on returning from the White's?

So a crime-scene was staged to deflect suspicion just for long enough for the Ramsey's to fly out of Colorado ASAP!

 

[UKGuy]

I've said that too. There is clearly shown in crime scene photos of the wineceller some wrapping paper in the corner. Not rolls of paper, but what looks like a partlally unwrapped gift. I feel that was from looking for the size 12 panties, which PR herself admitted buying for a niece as a gift.
PR lied when she said they were in JBR's drawer. If they were there, they'd have been found. One thing LE did go through in the search was JBR's underwear and drawers. They never found them because they were never there. They were in the basement, and after the crime they remaining panties were snuck out of the house. WHY? Because no intruder would have known that panties were inside the wrapped gifts in the wineceller.

DeeDee249,
I agree, so assuming the initiating factor was a toileting incident, cleaning or bedwetting, do you think the Ramsey's would have applied similar reasoning to the related evidence?

And was John worried he may have left trace evidence, even fingerprints, upon the gift wrapping?

 

[JMO8778]

daffodil,
I agree with you, but imo the purpose of the size-12's was to hide any signs of a prior sexual assault.

Some say it was signs of a toileting incident, but why was she left in urine-sokaed longjohns which again the Ramsey's state they dressed her in, on returning from the White's?

So a crime-scene was staged to deflect suspicion just for long enough for the Ramsey's to fly out of Colorado ASAP!

tell that to Hold over there...
I agree that the NEW underwear is suspect and did possibly/likely serve to limit any Ramsey DNA on her.
But her room was a mess all over,it appears they were only concerned about her body and where it was found,as far as cleanup goes.I think the urine release was after death and wasn't noticed.

 

[UKGuy]

exactly ! I was just talking about that on the 'actual' thread.

JMO8778,
So why not just place the remainder in JonBenet's panty drawer, or in her dresser?

Why did LHP state she saw the size-12's in JonBenet's dresser?

.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
So why not just place the remainder in JonBenet's panty drawer, or in her dresser?

Dee dee went over that UK,that underwear *had to disappear,same way it later had to show up..they didn't the too large underwear would be such an issue,so they had to hand it over.

Why did LHP state she saw the size-12's in JonBenet's dresser?

.

I don't know,is that a positive that she said it? I don't see anything suspect about buying underwear for a niece.It seems it was likely in the gift box,as Dee dee said.

 

[UKGuy]

Dee dee went over that UK,that underwear *had to disappear,same way it later had to show up..they didn't the too large underwear would be such an issue,so they had to hand it over.

I don't know,is that a positive that she said it? I don't see anything suspect about buying underwear for a niece.It seems it was likely in the gift box,as Dee dee said.

JMO8778,

Dee dee went over that UK,that underwear *had to disappear,same way it later had to show up..they didn't the too large underwear would be such an issue,so they had to hand it over.

So the size-12's have to be removed for some reason, then they are handed back, mmm?

I don't know,is that a positive that she said it? I don't see anything suspect about buying underwear for a niece.It seems it was likely in the gift box,as Dee dee said.

Sure, from memory, she said they were in the dresser drawer, for long enough I confused the dresser drawer with the bathroom panty drawer.

 

[UKGuy]

tell that to Hold over there...
I agree that the NEW underwear is suspect and did possibly/likely serve to limit any Ramsey DNA on her.
But her room was a mess all over,it appears they were only concerned about her body and where it was found,as far as cleanup goes.I think the urine release was after death and wasn't noticed.

JMO8778,

I agree that the NEW underwear is suspect and did possibly/likely serve to limit any Ramsey DNA on her.

Maybe, but why not dress her in a pair of size-6's, any pair would do for the dna avoidance issue?

But her room was a mess all over,it appears they were only concerned about her body and where it was found,as far as cleanup goes.I think the urine release was after death and wasn't noticed.

I disagree, imo, they went to great lengths to cleanup JonBenet's body. If the urine-release was post-mortem how come the blankets are not wet, why is the staining mainly on the front and not the rear?

 

[Ames]

JMO8778,

Maybe, but why not dress her in a pair of size-6's, any pair would do for the dna avoidance issue?


I disagree, imo, they went to great lengths to cleanup JonBenet's body. If the urine-release was post-mortem how come the blankets are not wet, why is the staining mainly on the front and not the rear?

From what I read, every single pair of undies that she owned had a poop stain in them. Clean undies (the ones in the pack) would be free of stains that points to toileting issues). I am torn between these two scenarios.....the size 12 panties were unopened and in the drawer...Patsy sent John to fetch some more panties, and he just decided to open the pack (because the were clean, and since he is a man, and pays no attention to size...like my husband, he would have NO clue what size panties my daughters wore)...and the panties were wrapped and in the basement. I can't make up my mind about that one.