Judge's Order re: OP's Mental Health Eval

[Whole Truth]

Hi and welcome!!!

Well , there are 2 groups ( from what i've seen so far , one more numerous than the other!) and it more or less goes as follows:

- The DT argued so badly against the evaluation as it could , potentially , open very dangerous avenues to OP's actual state of mind. This goes along with a theory that his DT would have had him assessed way before the trial started and could , potentially, know what it means to have OP assessed and what the following report for the court would contain.

- The DT introduced DR.V as witness late into the trial due to realizing that their case wasn't strong enough for acquittal . Hoping Dr.V testimony would be used for mitigation/sentencing . In short , they were foreseeing a conviction and hoped the GAD diagnosis would be used to make the stay in jail a bit shorter. In fighting the State's request , they were probably trying to disguise the fact that they introduced this witness so late into the trial which could be seen by the court as a desperate measure.

I'm not saying any of this is correct , or that any of it is what i personally think...i think only the evaluation report will give answers to your questions...and mine for that matter.

:seeya:

Thank you for the welcome. The 30th June seems a long way off...can't wait to find out what has been/not been discovered!

 

[seattlechiquita]

Gee, color me un-surprised and :sick: What does surprise me is that m'lady didn't offer to driver him herself. Sorry but so much TLC for a man accused of premeditated murder makes me quite ill.

 

[CriLondon]

And there is a third opinion Roux was genuinely surprised that Nel brought capacity into the equation as Roux stated that he was not arguing whether or not Oscar knew the rightness or wrongness of his actions, Roux was not arguing whether Oscar had a break with reality ie Roux’s example was if a door had not been shut, a window had not been opened or closed and Oscar had only imagined those scenarios, then a referral would certainly be appropriate. IMO Roux was genuinely perplexed as he put Vorster on the stand to bolster Oscar’s defense of putative self-defense which in Oscar’s case incorporates his hyper response to a perceived home intruder.

The judge decided to grant the request of the referral on her terms which is an outpatient evaluation, in other words, she has covered all her bases. IMO the referral opens the door to a mental illness defect defense as to diminishing Oscar’s awareness of right and wrong if he thought there was an intruder in his toilet. If the state can prove Oscar knew Reeva was in the toilet and willfully shot her point blank then a mental health evaluation is pointless.


BTW I am interested in your analysis of Oscar's smile. When he has run a race or is relaxed he smiles with his whole face, red carpet events, still shots for interviews, his right eye squints slightly and his left side of his mouth turns slightly downward.

Thank you!

Hi Carmelita !

Thanks for adding that !!

You know , it's actually quite curious you mention his smile and i'll tell you a short story.
When i started studying all this , a few months into my studies, i came across on internet one of OP's pictures and he was smiling the way you described it.
That made me go ( typically when you go through that phase , you look at faces to find something , even if it's not really there) "whoaaaa look at this guy's smile, it's contempt , it's contempt !!!.

Well , i was so convinced of what i had seen .

I then went further into my studies and learnt much more (which is the most difficult part, learning to see what's NOT there) . Let's say so much more that it made me revisit most things i had already labelled as certain.

I then came across a picture of OP (which i have recently seen again) when he's probably 2yrs old , sitting on somebody's lap , laughing the EXACT same way. (if you're looking at him, left corner of his mouth up, only left eye involved and semi-closed as in a genuine smile and same un-involvement on right side of the face).

I linked my studies with that kid's picture and i can almost definitely call that a physical trait , for i don't think that a 2yrs old kid , can understand/feel/process contempt.

Also , he always smiles like that, it's not occasionally.

However , there's still something that completely has me thinking (which is where i am with my studies atm , although big parts are very difficult for me as i have no neurological background).
There's way too much un-involvement on the right side of his face , which doesn't mean that it's not a genuine feeling , quite the contrary .
But potentially , it can mean one devastating thing: only one side of his brain is able to generate/process/push that emotion.

And if OP is right handed (i believe that he is) it would potentially lead down one path:Memory lane , the part of his brain used more memory "storage".


In short , his smile is true (in general) but there's only one side of his face that can generate/manage that emotion.....It's as if there's nothing in his true subconscious memory that can handle such a joyous and positive emotion: happiness

Take any pic of him with Reeva when he faces forward and cover the left side of his face , you'll see what i mean.....It's like another person.

 

[minor4th]

Something new to watch:

Developments in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. - YouTube

That was good and pretty helpful. She laid out how this could help or hurt both the prosecution and defense.

 

[Hoosen_Fenger]

It has been a brilliant read this evening and there are many views which I have enjoyed taking in.

I wanted to offer something from a personal perspective. Pistorius is going to be an Out Patient and a deal has been made of it. I think my experience might shed light for some people.

6 years ago, I underwent Psychotherapy for one hour a week (On a Saturday to fit in with work!) for 8 weeks. It was exhausting. I left every session in tears and an hour later, was so exhausted, I was asleep for a couple of hours before waking with a headache like I have never experienced before or since.

The explanation i was given for this Physical impact, was that I was exercising my Sub- Conscious which the Brain normally only uses for automatic reactions.

If Pistorius is going to be there for 8 hours a day, all I can say is that it will not be possible for him to control the situation and he is in for an incredibly tough time. In case anyone thinks I am being sympathetic to him, please read my previous (few) posts. I just wish to point out that he is about to go through something which the majority of the 'Free World' will never undertake.

This evaluation process is only going to be good for Justice.

 

[MissJ]

My husband's a mental health nurse in the UK and said the very same. He said even if the main issue is anxiety it's triggered, often, at different times of day for different people and the only way to really assess the situation fully is constant observation.



JMO too.

Exactly. I'm a retired nurse. Thanks.

 

[Gryffindor]

Gee, color me un-surprised and :sick: What does surprise me is that m'lady didn't offer to driver him herself. Sorry but so much TLC for a man accused of premeditated murder makes me quite ill.

Whatever judge Masipa ruled is obviously fair and just, in accordance with the law.

 

[Gryffindor]

Not in the least! They say Oscar Pistorius is the most evil man to walk the planet since Vlad the Impaler and then they all laugh at him. Just kidding Gryffindor - it is quite balanced and both those who think OP is a cold blooded killer and those with an opposing view should be fine with it.

She doesn't really say much anyone here doesn't already know but I guess the fact that she is a regular reporter from the courtroom gives her a bit of an inside angle. You'll like that she doesn't think he is getting special treatment.

Haha! I love your humour ;-) x

 

[soozieqtips]

Gee, color me un-surprised and :sick: What does surprise me is that m'lady didn't offer to driver him herself. Sorry but so much TLC for a man accused of premeditated murder makes me quite ill.

I agree. I was under the assumption that as it wasn't a voluntary admission for treatment, that he would be taken into custody with his bail conditions revoked. Is this some kind of first?

Also, he only has to keep his temper during certain hours of the day, then he can let rip with the 'injustice' of it all when he gets back home. I'm sure Roux will have stressed the importance of not arguing with anyone (didn't go so well on the stand!) but I think OP is getting increasingly desperate and might well keep everything reined in till after 4pm each day!

So it seems to me that this can't possibly be a full and thorough evaluation as he won't be there at nights when his sleeplessness and restlessness might come into play. They can't even tell if he really does have nightmares (like he claimed) because he'll be snoozing at home!

 

[Gryffindor]

Not in the least! They say Oscar Pistorius is the most evil man to walk the planet since Vlad the Impaler and then they all laugh at him. Just kidding Gryffindor - it is quite balanced and both those who think OP is a cold blooded killer and those with an opposing view should be fine with it.

She doesn't really say much anyone here doesn't already know but I guess the fact that she is a regular reporter from the courtroom gives her a bit of an inside angle. You'll like that she doesn't think he is getting special treatment.

Thank you Lithgow. Just watched it. Great, insightful, balanced perspective on the variable outcomes from the evaluation. Thanks for posting :-D

 

[jilly]

Something new to watch:

Developments in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. - YouTube

Thank you for this lithgow !

It reduced by blood pressure level a little. The guest's opinion reminded me that I should continue to have faith in Nel. As she said, if Oscar is found to have some narcissistic personality order, then the state will argue that it drove Oscar's conduct. Like someone else mentioned awhile back, there are many narcissistic men currently serving time for murder. It's not an excuse.

I still don't like the idea of 2 professors being on the panel. It's my opinion that this should be done by experienced specialists who deal with these evaluations on a daily basis.

 

[minor4th]

I agree. I was under the assumption that as it wasn't a voluntary admission for treatment, that he would be taken into custody with his bail conditions revoked. Is this some kind of first?

Also, he only has to keep his temper during certain hours of the day, then he can let rip with the 'injustice' of it all when he gets back home. I'm sure Roux will have stressed the importance of not arguing with anyone (didn't go so well on the stand!) and I think OP is getting desperate and might well keep everything reined in till after 4pm each day! So it seems to me that this can't possibly be a full and thorough evaluation as he won't be there at nights when his sleeplessness and restlessness might come into play. They can't even tell if he really does have nightmares (like he claimed) because he'll be at home!

Apparently there has been at least one other case where the accused was evaluated on an outpatient basis. They mentioned it in court last week when Masipa announced her judgment

 

[soozieqtips]

Apparently there has been at least one other case where the accused was evaluated on an outpatient basis. They mentioned it in court last week when Masipa announced her judgment

So it's not a first, it's a second :smile:

 

[soozieqtips]

Something new to watch:

Developments in the Oscar Pistorius murder trial. - YouTube

Thanks lith! Really interesting and worth watching if anyone missed it.

 

[MsMarple]

And there is a third opinion Roux was genuinely surprised that Nel brought capacity into the equation as Roux stated that he was not arguing whether or not Oscar knew the rightness or wrongness of his actions, Roux was not arguing whether Oscar had a break with reality ie Roux’s example was if a door had not been shut, a window had not been opened or closed and Oscar had only imagined those scenarios, then a referral would certainly be appropriate. IMO Roux was genuinely perplexed as he put Vorster on the stand to bolster Oscar’s defense of putative self-defense which in Oscar’s case incorporates his hyper response to a perceived home intruder.

The judge decided to grant the request of the referral on her terms which is an outpatient evaluation, in other words, she has covered all her bases. IMO the referral opens the door to a mental illness defect defense as to diminishing Oscar’s awareness of right and wrong if he thought there was an intruder in his toilet. If the state can prove Oscar knew Reeva was in the toilet and willfully shot her point blank then a mental health evaluation is pointless.

RSBM RBBM

If that opinion refers to the dt objecting to the psych evaluation then IMO it is illogical because Roux's argument came well after the fact. OP himself testified on the stand that on the night he shot Reeva he lost all control over his actions - including his trigger finger - due to overwhelming terror. And IMO, some of his odd comments, like he “shot (at) the door” also brings the question of his mental health into focus. As an experienced advocate why would it surprise Roux that the prosecution took notice of OP's statements, especially when Dr. V tried to correlate them to a mental disorder? Seems to me that door was already wide open.

Putative self defense necessitates a sequence of thoughts leading up to the action. Pulling a trigger because one is scared witless or startled is a different defense. OP stated several times that he acted without thinking and Dr. V's testimony bolstered that notion.

ETA: OTOH, you may be correct about Roux being surprised:

Last week, Judge Masipa said prosecutor Gerrie Nel had argued that Vorster's diagnosis and evidence was calculated attempt to make up for Pistorius' own weak testimony.

Masipa added in this case she disagreed with defence advocate Barry Roux's argument that there were no allegations of mental issues.

“The allegations have been properly substantiated by the evidence of Dr Vorster,” said Masipa.

She said Vorster's comprehensive report on Pistorius' developmental history dealt with his past mental history and had provided a diagnosis of generalised anxiety disorder (GAD).

Masipa said It was necessary to focus on extra information in her ruling, such as Pistorius' hypervigilance and inability to relax.

Masipa said Vorster believed that the anxiety disorder went hand in hand with his behaviour.

The judge said that a diagnosis needed to be determined by experts, rather than a lay-court.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/four-experts-to-examine-oscar-1.1690895#.U3vc_PldWSo

So maybe Roux just made a tactical blunder.


My comments are only my own opinion and not personal to anyone in any way.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Apparently there has been at least one other case where the accused was evaluated on an outpatient basis. They mentioned it in court last week when Masipa announced her judgment

Was that by the industrial psychologist?

 

[minor4th]

Was that by the industrial psychologist?

I don't think so. They just referenced another case in which the accused was treated on outpatient basis rather than involuntary commital

 

[vansleuths]

Ooh. The trial record will be made available to the psychiatrists. Wonder what they'll make of Oscar implying everyone that testified for the State is inept, corrupt, lying, or has a vendetta against him? Especially considering one psychiatrist has testified against paranoia.

BIB For the psychiatrists, the OP case will be just one more case thrown on their busy case load.

While no psychiatrist would never mention this, I wonder if they really would go through the 4000+ pages of the trial, it is a lot to ask. Consider that they will have 30 days to evaluate OP and submit a report and the judge in this case is expected to take at least 30 days just to give her verdict.

 

[Fuskier]

Can't argue about the power of money....in general, anyway. Personally I have all the confidence in the world that this judge will get it right. Are you aware of her history? She's walked the walk for seeking justice. She has demonstrated over a lifetime that she is a person of utmost integrity and tremendous inner strength and courage, and that she is quite able and willing to stand up to money and power.

Her story of overcoming the disability she was born into...being an intelligent strong black women forced to live in an apartheid nightmare....is the real thing.

If she finds OP guilty of murder I will accept her verdict as just and fair.

Thank you and well said IMO. :cheers:

 

[vansleuths]

and the even nicer bit, is their report is made available to the court. which is you and me ,babe!!

What would be really interesting would be to put a camera in the hospital and televise how he does during his interviews!