Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[SapphireSteel]

It's possible.But why was she acting sooo suspicious and so full of lies during the police interview when it came to that jacket? First she claimed she didn't wear it at all until they showed her PICTURES of herself wearing it to the party....and then she claimed it "may" have been PW'S similar jacket that she "may" have borrowed....:banghead:

The Ramseys and their lawyers demanded they see the police files before they would agree to be interviewed.

They would have known ahead of time the importance LE gave PR's clothing that evening.

LE had requested the clothing from that evening, however received it very late in dribs and drabs, one item even had the store fold marks still in it, implying that it was bought just to send to LE.

:dunno:

 

[SapphireSteel]

16

SBM

I don't see where she talks about maybe borrowing it. Unless it's in a different interview. What I quoted above is from the 08/00 interview. She says PW had one like it.

I'll try to go through the earlier interviews to see if there is a conflicting statement.

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a little button
16 there, I guess (inaudible) button (inaudible).
17 The reason I'm looking so hard at this
18 is because Priscilla had a jacket like this. I
19 mean, until I saw this picture, I had thought
20 that I had worn my Christmas sweater to their
21 house, the little bobbly one. And then I saw
22 this picture and I said oh, I must have worn
23 that sweater to their house.
24 But then I thought, well, maybe I had
25 her jacket. I mean, you know, I don't know. I
0545
1 was just trying to figure out, this was
2 certainly the one I sent, I sent mine out there,
3 but I just want to make sure that...
4 TRIP DeMUTH: That you were wearing yours
5 on Christmas and not hers?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I could have
7 been in her house in the living room, you know,
8 what I mean, and been cold and she said here put
9 this on. I just can't remember. My point is
10 that we both had jackets similar to that.


From the June 98 interview.

 

[dodie20]

PR can only be placed at the crime scene in the sense that the entire house, and it's yard is a crime scene. In a previous reply I'd said wearing the same clothes was suspicious. Upon further reflection and reading dogG's blog, I have to change my opinion. If PR was involved why would she risk being seen in the same clothes - that naturally makes everyone assume she was up all night doing the criminal acts (either murder and staging, or at least staging)
There was no deadline for making the 911 call. She could easily have showered and changed, then made the call at say 6:30.

JR was the one who showered in the morning.

As an aside, and as proof of nothing at all, I always shower before going to bed. Why go to bed dirty then clean yourself in the morning? But perhaps my habits are atypical?

Turning to the fiber "evidence". The paint tote was normally kept upstairs. LHP said that she took it downstairs on the 22nd, the day before the Ramsey's party.

"Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

So there is no mystery as to why there are fibers in the paint tote. It's PR's and was often kept on the first floor of the house. PR sometimes wore her red jacket in the house. PR says she never wore the jacket when painting, which would make sense, but she didn't say she never handled the tote when wearing the red jacket.

I wonder if she may have carried it back and forth to her painting class? And if so, might she have worn the jacket on the way to class - taking it off when she began to paint? As far as I can tell the police had never asked her about this.

So, PR's tote has PRs fibers which can be explained as innocent transfer. The tote is taken to the basement on the 22nd, by the housekeeper. On the 25 the killer uses the paintbrush, from the tote, to fashion a "garrotte". Pawing through the tote he gets the red fibers on him, and transfers them to the garrotte, blanket, and tape.

So her statement that she didn't visit the WC that night or the next morning is perfectly consistent with the evidence.

Considering how late they were up, and how early they had to get up, I thought it was strange that JR showered that morning. IMO,what would have made the most sense, was either showering the night before, or waiting until he got to Michigan. Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but didn't PR say that it was normal for her to wear the same clothes, and for the kids to wear their pjs? just get up and go, and after they were good and awake, get cleaned up later? Honestly, considering the hours they were keeping, this is what makes sense. But, JR was the odd man out. He stayed up late, read I believe, took a sleep aid, but still was alert enough, to get up really early and shower? IDK, but PR being in the same clothes has never really seemed suspicious to me. MOO

 

[SapphireSteel]

Considering how late they were up, and how early they had to get up, I thought it was strange that JR showered that morning. IMO,what would have made the most sense, was either showering the night before, or waiting until he got to Michigan. Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but didn't PR say that it was normal for her to wear the same clothes, and for the kids to wear their pjs? just get up and go, and after they were good and awake, get cleaned up later? Honestly, considering the hours they were keeping, this is what makes sense. But, JR was the odd man out. He stayed up late, read I believe, took a sleep aid, but still was alert enough, to get up really early and shower? IDK, but PR being in the same clothes has never really seemed suspicious to me. MOO

Good point.

What makes zero sense to me is that PR claims not to have any idea what time she woke that morning.

They are on a schedule, they have to be somewhere at a certain time to meet up with their friends, yet she didn't set an alarm, or even look at the clock when she woke that morning.

If I'm on a schedule which means I'm responsible for waking and assembling two kids, plus complete some packing, I'm setting that alarm.

:moo:

 

[Chrishope]

Considering how late they were up, and how early they had to get up, I thought it was strange that JR showered that morning. IMO,what would have made the most sense, was either showering the night before, or waiting until he got to Michigan. Correct me if I'm not remembering correctly, but didn't PR say that it was normal for her to wear the same clothes, and for the kids to wear their pjs? just get up and go, and after they were good and awake, get cleaned up later? Honestly, considering the hours they were keeping, this is what makes sense. But, JR was the odd man out. He stayed up late, read I believe, took a sleep aid, but still was alert enough, to get up really early and shower? IDK, but PR being in the same clothes has never really seemed suspicious to me. MOO

It seemed suspicious to me, but as docG points out, if she is in on the cover up, why is she going to appear in the same clothes and let everyone think she's been up all night?

 

[UKGuy]

Good point.

What makes zero sense to me is that PR claims not to have any idea what time she woke that morning.

They are on a schedule, they have to be somewhere at a certain time to meet up with their friends, yet she didn't set an alarm, or even look at the clock when she woke that morning.

If I'm on a schedule which means I'm responsible for waking and assembling two kids, plus complete some packing, I'm setting that alarm.

:moo:

SapphireSteel,
Interesting observation. Patsy was always answering questions with memory loss, or ignorance, maybe her answer is an unconcious reference to the truth?


.

 

[Chrishope]

15 PATSY RAMSEY: Looks like a little button
16 there, I guess (inaudible) button (inaudible).
17 The reason I'm looking so hard at this
18 is because Priscilla had a jacket like this. I
19 mean, until I saw this picture, I had thought
20 that I had worn my Christmas sweater to their
21 house, the little bobbly one. And then I saw
22 this picture and I said oh, I must have worn
23 that sweater to their house.
24 But then I thought, well, maybe I had
25 her jacket. I mean, you know, I don't know. I
0545
1 was just trying to figure out, this was
2 certainly the one I sent, I sent mine out there,
3 but I just want to make sure that...
4 TRIP DeMUTH: That you were wearing yours
5 on Christmas and not hers?
6 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I mean, I could have
7 been in her house in the living room, you know,
8 what I mean, and been cold and she said here put
9 this on. I just can't remember. My point is
10 that we both had jackets similar to that.


From the June 98 interview.

Hard to say if she'd being cagey or not. As you point out, she'd have been tipped off of the importance of fibers.

At least she'd have been tipped off as to the importance the police put on the fibers. I'm not sure fibers of the residents of the house mean much at all. Those red jacket fibers are probably everywhere through secondary transfer.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Hard to say if she'd being cagey or not. As you point out, she'd have been tipped off of the importance of fibers.

At least she'd have been tipped off as to the importance the police put on the fibers. I'm not sure fibers of the residents of the house mean much at all. Those red jacket fibers are probably everywhere through secondary transfer.

IIRC the fibres were found on the INSIDE of the duct tape across JBR's mouth, which is not so easy to explain.

 

[UKGuy]

Sorry just correcting a fallacy re Burke hitting his sister.

I absolutely believe RDI, no doubt in my mind. Just not Burke...although I do think he needs to speak out now, to get justice for JBR.

I think the dynamics of that family were very, very scary.

:moo:

SapphireSteel,
You bet! I used to think BDI was nonsense, I could not see past JDI, and PDI was a populist theory.

Once I read up on some of the facts, and learned a little about the R's character, I swung more to PDI, but some inconsistencies have me reconsidering BDI these days.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Good point.

What makes zero sense to me is that PR claims not to have any idea what time she woke that morning.

They are on a schedule, they have to be somewhere at a certain time to meet up with their friends, yet she didn't set an alarm, or even look at the clock when she woke that morning.

If I'm on a schedule which means I'm responsible for waking and assembling two kids, plus complete some packing, I'm setting that alarm.

:moo:

I would set the alarm too. But she says JR had the alarm on his side, and that he'd set it. She also says she got up between 5:30 and 6.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
You bet! I used to think BDI was nonsense, I could not see past JDI, and PDI was a populist theory.

Once I read up on some of the facts, and learned a little about the R's character, I swung more to PDI, but some inconsistencies have me reconsidering BDI these days.


.

I just can't get my head around BDI.

Those kids barely had an unscheduled hour in their lives. I simply cannot see that they had the time to get up to everything the BDI theory implies, repeated sexual assaults, plus murder...

He was only 9 and from all accounts loved his sister, and she loved him.

:dunno:

 

[Chrishope]

IIRC the fibres were found on the INSIDE of the duct tape across JBR's mouth, which is not so easy to explain.

Very easy. Secondary transfer. The killer touched the inside of the tape - or the fibers were already on JB.

 

[dodie20]

It seemed suspicious to me, but as docG points out, if she is in on the cover up, why is she going to appear in the same clothes and let everyone think she's been up all night?

Well, the cynic in me thinks she may have worn the same clothes, so she'd have a chance to transfer fibers, if the body was found...but, this would require some calculative, thinking ahead. All of this, IMO, is 1 of the things, that doesn't point to a joint cover-up. Wouldn't they have united and done the same thing? either both showered or not? And really...if they were in on this together, and JR knew PR or BR was guilty, and had left JBR in the basement, would he have bothered showering? Showering at a time like this, doesn't make sense. IMO, besides being completely innocent, there's only 1 logical reason for him showering. And if PR, alone, was guilty, how could she have known JR would find the body? If she was guilty, and needed the chance to transfer fibers, why didn't she find the body? The more I think about this case, the more confusing it gets. MOO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Hard to say if she'd being cagey or not. As you point out, she'd have been tipped off of the importance of fibers.

At least she'd have been tipped off as to the importance the police put on the fibers. I'm not sure fibers of the residents of the house mean much at all. Those red jacket fibers are probably everywhere through secondary transfer.

I've read the entire transcript and cagey doesn't even begin to describe it.

She either had alzheimers or genuine memory loss.

I'm going to go through and count the times she says "I don't remember"...

:banghead:

 

[SapphireSteel]

Well, the cynic in me thinks she may have worn the same clothes, so she'd have a chance to transfer fibers, if the body was found...but, this would require some calculative, thinking ahead. All of this, IMO, is 1 of the things, that doesn't point to a joint cover-up. Wouldn't they have united and done the same thing? either both showered or not? And really...if they were in on this together, and JR knew PR or BR was guilty, and had left JBR in the basement, would he have bothered showering? Showering at a time like this, doesn't make sense. IMO, besides being completely innocent, there's only 1 logical reason for him showering. And if PR, alone, was guilty, how could she have known JR would find the body? If she was guilty, and needed the chance to transfer fibers, why didn't she find the body? The more I think about this case, the more confusing it gets. MOO.

One scenario that explains everything, is that they were BOTH abusing JBR, perhaps in different ways.

This would mean they were forced to team together to cover up the murder and the earlier abuse.

:moo:

 

[Chrishope]

I've read the entire transcript and cagey doesn't even begin to describe it.

She either had alzheimers or genuine memory loss.

I'm going to go through and count the times she says "I don't remember"...

:banghead:

No offense but can you count that high?

They have memory loss all the time, but sometimes it's probably going to be real. Whether or not it's real in this instance is hard to say. I read it too, and if I were PDI I'd take it as being cagey.

The thing is, if her attorney has advised her, then she knows the significance. The thing to do, if she was involved, would be to say "yeah, I wear the red jacket all the time when I"m painting, and when I'm in the basement." This doesn't hurt PR. It explains why her fibers would be there. Yet, she says just the opposite - she doesn't wear the jacket when painting (which I find believable) and she hadn't been down the basement the night of the murder or the next morning. It seems to me she must be telling the truth.

 

[UKGuy]

PR can only be placed at the crime scene in the sense that the entire house, and it's yard is a crime scene. In a previous reply I'd said wearing the same clothes was suspicious. Upon further reflection and reading dogG's blog, I have to change my opinion. If PR was involved why would she risk being seen in the same clothes - that naturally makes everyone assume she was up all night doing the criminal acts (either murder and staging, or at least staging)
There was no deadline for making the 911 call. She could easily have showered and changed, then made the call at say 6:30.

JR was the one who showered in the morning.

As an aside, and as proof of nothing at all, I always shower before going to bed. Why go to bed dirty then clean yourself in the morning? But perhaps my habits are atypical?

Turning to the fiber "evidence". The paint tote was normally kept upstairs. LHP said that she took it downstairs on the 22nd, the day before the Ramsey's party.

"Patsy started taking a painting class, and JonBenet drew a lot with crayons and MARKERS. People and flowers. They had a big easel, but most of the time JonBenet painted on a card table in the butler's kitchen. Patsy had her paints and brushes in a white paint tote. Sometimes she asked me to take her paints down to the basement. "I don't want to see it." On the day of the Ramseys' Christmas party, I took the paint tote downstairs."

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-linda-hoffmann-pugh.htm

So there is no mystery as to why there are fibers in the paint tote. It's PR's and was often kept on the first floor of the house. PR sometimes wore her red jacket in the house. PR says she never wore the jacket when painting, which would make sense, but she didn't say she never handled the tote when wearing the red jacket.

I wonder if she may have carried it back and forth to her painting class? And if so, might she have worn the jacket on the way to class - taking it off when she began to paint? As far as I can tell the police had never asked her about this.

So, PR's tote has PRs fibers which can be explained as innocent transfer. The tote is taken to the basement on the 22nd, by the housekeeper. On the 25 the killer uses the paintbrush, from the tote, to fashion a "garrotte". Pawing through the tote he gets the red fibers on him, and transfers them to the garrotte, blanket, and tape.

So her statement that she didn't visit the WC that night or the next morning is perfectly consistent with the evidence.

Chrishope,

So her statement that she didn't visit the WC that night or the next morning is perfectly consistent with the evidence.

Only if you can demonstrate that she wore the jacket while painting. Why, because as you outline, it was the housekeeper who relocated the paint-tote, not Patsy!

And of course Columbo would enquire "Maam, one last question, did you ever wear that jacket when you painted?"

PR says she never wore the jacket when painting, which would make sense, but she didn't say she never handled the tote when wearing the red jacket.

Wow, you make my case for me, eloquently. Because I am asserting on the very occassion that she did handle the paint tote, was when she was wearing her red jacket, precisely when she manufactured the ligature and paintbrush handle *advertiser censored* garrote!

Patricia Ramsey can be placed at the crime-scene, plain and simple.


.

 

[Chrishope]

One scenario that explains everything, is that they were BOTH abusing JBR, perhaps in different ways.

This would mean they were forced to team together to cover up the murder and the earlier abuse.

:moo:

But then we are back to the most basic question - Why is there both a dead body and a RN ? They'd either dump the body - the note gave them plenty of time to do that, or they'd stage the body consistent with a home invasion/killing.

 

[Chrishope]

Well, the cynic in me thinks she may have worn the same clothes, so she'd have a chance to transfer fibers, if the body was found...but, this would require some calculative, thinking ahead. All of this, IMO, is 1 of the things, that doesn't point to a joint cover-up. Wouldn't they have united and done the same thing? either both showered or not? And really...if they were in on this together, and JR knew PR or BR was guilty, and had left JBR in the basement, would he have bothered showering? Showering at a time like this, doesn't make sense. IMO, besides being completely innocent, there's only 1 logical reason for him showering. And if PR, alone, was guilty, how could she have known JR would find the body? If she was guilty, and needed the chance to transfer fibers, why didn't she find the body? The more I think about this case, the more confusing it gets. MOO.

My guess is they knew little to nothing about fiber transfer and did not plan for it at all. You have to remember that out there, away from crime web sites - you know where there are people with real lives - most people don't talk about primary/secondary transfer of fibers. Most people would never think about it.

As for showering, I don't know how much we can make of it, except to say that JR showered and PR didn't (apparently). Usually we'd figure taking a show is to get clean - both in the everyday sense, and in the criminal/forensic sense.

As far as ever day type showering, some people like to do it in the morning I guess. JR didn't really get dirty in a blue collar sense. He just sat in an air conditioned office and wheeled and dealed, so I suppose he wasn't really going to bed "dirty".

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Only if you can demonstrate that she wore the jacket while painting. Why, because as you outline, it was the housekeeper who relocated the paint-tote, not Patsy!

And of course Columbo would enquire "Maam, one last question, did you ever wear that jacket when you painted?"


Wow, you make my case for me, eloquently. Because I am asserting on the very occassion that she did handle the paint tote, was when she was wearing her red jacket, precisely when she manufactured the ligature and paintbrush handle *advertiser censored* garrote!

Patricia Ramsey can be placed at the crime-scene, plain and simple.


.

LOL. The paint tote was upstairs most of the time. She may have handled it numerous times when wearing the jacket - just moving it out of the way, or repositioning it so JB would have room for drawing. It's not like LHP was the only person who actually ever carried it around. LE wasn't bright enough to ask about this. They asked if she wore it painting. Of course, she didn't. She'd take it off and put on a smock, or an old shirt/top that she didn't care about.

PR may also have transfered the fibers to LHP who may have transfered them to the tote.

I wouldn't be inclined to believe her if she said she wore the jacket while painting - who would? But she could have manufactured an explanation that would satisfy even you, had she lied. Yet, she did not manufacture that lie. She told the truth.

Of course the fibers need not have transferred from the tote to the garrotte and from tote to tape, etc. The fibers could have come from JB's clothing, or body, and were transferred by the killer to the objects.