Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[DeeDee249]

None of these are exact. Rigour would tend to indicate a lot, but doesn't that depend on temperature?

Was JBR moved?

:dunno:

While not exact, forensic science is extremely accurate. There are always variables, such as temperature of the body at death-was a fever present or had there been exercise that may have raised body temperature. Ambient air temperature of course, figures in. But in THIS case, even though it was a basement, it is considered indoor, or room temperature, on which the standards are based. JR also stated in a interview that one of the reasons he never rushed to repair the broken basement window which he admitted breaking was that the basement was warm, even in winter, because of the furnace.
In indoor (room) temperatures, the body loses heat at the rate of 1 degree per hour to 90 minutes. This is algor mortis. That is why the liver stab is important. And I am very suspicious as to why it was not done. Sloppy forensics were a part of this case from the first encounter with the body. It seemed all the coroner felt he needed to do when he examined her body was to pronounce her dead, not try to help solve her murder. He spent about 10 minutes examining her.
There are VERY few limited situations where the body does not lose heat predictably after death, and in some cases, the body temp even rises-one is a pontine hemorrhage (where a burst aneurism or cerebral hemorrhage occurs in the section of the brain known as the pons, which regulates body temperature, and another is the use of certain street drugs which cause a marked and fatal rise in temperature - even up to 108.
I do not personally believe JB was moved after being placed in the wineceller, as her livor pattern tells us that she was placed on her back, legs straight out, arms were NOT behind her or raised high over her head, and head cocked to the right (exactly the way her body was when she was brought up)- within 15 minutes or so of her death. The blanching phase of livor proceeds to the non-blanching phase at some point, and she was in the non-blanching (or fixed) phase when she was found.
Rigor tells us her body had not been in any other position first, at least not after 20 minutes or so of her death. See, it is the combination of the livor pattern and the stage of rigor that tells me this. While she likely died on her stomach (anterior urine stains on the longjohns and panties as well as the knot of the ligature being at the back of her neck, and the bruise on her right posterior shoulder (a perfect indication of someone kneeling or pressing against her as the ligature was made and tightened), I believe that SOON after death, she was placed on that white blanket in the wineceller.
IF she was moved at all, she may have been brought closer to the doorway of the wineceller. There was an opportunity for JR to have done this during his "missing" 2 hours (approx. 10 am - noon) when Det Arndt said she could not account for his whereabouts. He could have pulled her along the floor, or (if livor was fixed) picked her up and moved her.

 

[SapphireSteel]

This little phrase has always made me wonder - taken from PR's interview July 98.

1 I don't know. I can't imagine, you know, that
2 anybody that has children -- you know, when you
3 have children you know what a precious life that
4 is, and you know what a -- you know, I can't
5 imagine that you can do that to another child.

The phrase "another child" implies one of two things -

1. there was another child involved in JBR's molestation/murder OR
2. there was another child who was a victim of the same treatment as JBR.

No doubt the BDI's will love it, personally I wonder if JB's deceased daughter had some things to say about her dad...

Either way, in PR's speech, a second child was involved, somehow.

:dunno:

 

[Lera213]

What I think happened? BR killed her, not knowing his anger killed her and thought she was just hurt really bad, he went and got JR...JR came down stairs, settled BR down. PR came down, , sent BR upstairs, JR told PR, she flipped out, running to find her, she sees her, falls on the floor, (fiber transfer) JR trying to control the situation, telling PR they have to protect BR, must get rid of the body, PR places items that she wants JR to bury her with, tells her to leave the room. JR as he finished dressing JB start to think clear, comes out and tells PR to write the note because now they cannot get rid of the body because of DNA, fibers, and BR DNA. PR starts to write the note but cannot complete it, JR has to finish the note. He calms her down enough to go over the plan. PR calls the police.

Both of their adrenalin had to have been pumping, and shock, not thinking clear, then thinking clear, then not....PR freaking out, JR trying to hold family together or hide past abuse either from himself or BR.

This is just off the top of my head without much thought. LOL

 

[Chrishope]

I hear her say in the background "What did you do, what did you do" am I correct? at the 1:19 to 1:22 mark I hear her say this. using high quality head phones

I'll listen tomorrow when I can turn up the volume. thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Chrishope]

Now I'm wondering why PR (in a BDI scenario) would be wearing her jacket at all? This is some work being done. Does she really want the jacket on during all this? Just a stray thought.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Now I'm wondering why PR (in a BDI scenario) would be wearing her jacket at all? This is some work being done. Does she really want the jacket on during all this? Just a stray thought.

It was cold :dunno:

 

[Chrishope]

It was cold :dunno:

Always a good reason, but how cold really did they keep their basement? These weren't poor people who couldn't afford to throw another coal on the fire.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Always a good reason, but how cold really did they keep their basement? These weren't poor people who couldn't afford to throw another coal on the fire.

I have no clue how they heated their house, or even if the heating extended to the basement.

I would imagine there was a fire somewhere, only because there were fire tools in photos.

Whether or not they would keep the fires burning while they were away on holiday is also another question...they were leaving early the next day.

:dunno:

I know she was waiting out front for LE, in the cold. It would stand to reason she put it back on then.
I don't know if it matters much either way. PR could well have taken off her coat to do the deed, and put it on again after, thereby accounting for the fibres.

 

[Whaleshark]

No one knows when the pineapple was eaten.

According to PR, there WAS no pineapple.

:banghead:

Because Patsy said there was no pineapple you believe it?

Even though it was found in her stomach?

 

[Lera213]

Always a good reason, but how cold really did they keep their basement? These weren't poor people who couldn't afford to throw another coal on the fire.

wine cellars are typical cold rooms

 

[Lera213]

I haven't followed this case clearly like most here. I followed it in the news when it first happened like the first two weeks then nadda, so anything I say is probably way off the mark. Hopefully I'm somewhat close.

I do think it was either JR or the son who killed her. If I'm correct in hearing PR on the tape saying "What did you do" then it is clearly one of them and not PR.

I do remember watching one interview of them both, and PR came across nervous in her responses. Almost like she was hoping she gave the story she was suppose to. She had to have been a basket case, and like so many woman believe and stand by their man 100 percent.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Because Patsy said there was no pineapple you believe it?

Even though it was found in her stomach?

That is not what I said.

Please read my comments in context.

 

[Whaleshark]

Ok, if you don't change what you said or meant in your previous posts about Burke..

I watched you say that Burke absolutely didn't do this and how could we be allowed to accuse him and why wasn't it considered bashing...

Then proceed to say you were just checking with the mods because on any other forum one would be banned for accusing family or parents (which is not true), but then you yourself go and say what you think about Patsy and what she may have or be capable of...

So it's kind of hard to keep what you say and mean into context...

 

[SapphireSteel]

Ok, if you don't change what you said or meant in your previous posts about Burke..

I watched you say that Burke absolutely didn't do this and how could we be allowed to accuse him and why wasn't it considered bashing...

Then proceed to say you were just checking with the mods because on any other forum one would be banned for accusing family or parents (which is not true), but then you yourself go and say what you think about Patsy and what she may have or be capable of...

So it's kind of hard to keep what you say and mean into context...

Perhaps just ignore my posts altogether if you find them hard to follow.

Thanks

 

[Whaleshark]

Well I definitely agree that there is something wrong with the theory that both knew what happened.

I also think that you're right that PR probably would have showered and changed clothes. So what I used to regard as suspicious now seems to suggest she wasn't involved.

I'm less troubled than you are by JR showering. I mean, I suspect it's a JDI case, but people do shower in the morning.

I don't think PR could have dressed in yesterdays clothes if that was an unusual thing for her to do - not if she worked alone. That would be a tip off to JR.

If we believe it was RDI, and know they contradicted their own stories and lied about the version of events from that night and the next morning, how do we believe anything they say about who did what that morning?

We can't be sure who, if anyone, even went to bed at all that night, much less really took a shower. Don't know if John even took a shower, just because he said it. Don't know if there was any alarm set for either of them to get up before the other at all, if they didn't even go to bed...

Need to keep in mind that maybe none of what they said -- their versions
(and there are multiple) should be considered truthful.... And at the most, partially truthful, and at the least, completely false with the true version of events.

Any Ramsey version is fabricated to cover up true events.

The truth doesn't change. Their versions did change.

This is what also concerns me about a JDI only version as well: if Patsy is no part of anything, her version, her truth, should never change- but her stories changed just as much as his did...

 

[dodie20]

I hear her say in the background "What did you do, what did you do" am I correct? at the 1:19 to 1:22 mark I hear her say this. using high quality head phones

yes, I hear a voice say, 'what did you do, (and then maybe, 'to her'), and then I hear, 'I'm talking to you'. And then I hear a different voice answer with, 'nothing'. I don't hear the whole, supposed ' what did you find', exchange, but I'm listening with cheap, dollar store headphones. And right before the 'what did you do', I think I hear, 'you're freaking me out'.

 

[sandover]

The more I think about doc and chrishope, the more I think there's a 95% chance JDI.

This jibes with:

-- Linda Arndt's intuition

-- Fleet White's turning on and distancing from John

-- the logic of the RN

-- the weirdness of the first CNN interview with a drugged PR but a very alert JR who nevertheless cannot bring himself to want to find out "who" did this but "why" it happened

-- JR's bizarre, frantic behavior with the police present on the 26th, the strangeness of contacting his pilot to go to Atlanta etc

I could go on but those are just a few things that fit SO much better with JDI than any other scenario.

JR does not seem like he was ever deeply in love with PR. If she had done it, I don't think he would have lied or covered up for her.

PR must have been terrified of believing that JDI, especially after her horrific cancer experience. She was highly motivated to be in denial. Otherwise she'd have to admit that her husband was a pedophile who abused their daughter and then killed her.

JR has classic signs of psychopathy, which he has continued to demonstrate, up to and including this nonsense book he released this year.

He may not have planned consciously to kill JB, but the fact that on Christmas he took no photos or video of JB suggests that on some level he knew what he had to do. JB was starting to act out more and more and getting dangerously close to telling someone what her father was up to.

He was a conservative Republican who came up with a ridiculous "anti-American" villain in what he called "The People's Republic of Boulder" to explain JB's disappearance/murder -- the only conceivable villain he could come up with in that sleepy town, under those circumstances.

This was a man who did not even travel to be with his wife during her horrific cancer treatments. He was cold, callous, and calculating. No doubt he wasn't a pure monster but the pain and stress of life following his daughter's death exacerbated his psychopathic tendencies and led him to abuse his daughter and then kill her.

That he felt "sympathy" for John Mark Karr indicated that he knew Karr was innocent, but also felt sympathy for his freakish pedophilia, since JR had been one himself.

This sad tale has been exploded by doc g. We finally have the answer we have been waiting for. John Ramsey molested his daughter and when she was nearing exposing this horror, he killed her.

The end.

 

[JimmyWells]

I'm gonna go BDI and there are several reasons.

 

[SapphireSteel]

PR fits the Munchausen by Proxy model to a T.

 

[Whaleshark]

Should also consider this as an illness for Patsy as well:

Achievement-by-Proxy Disorder:

Narcissistic, needy parents - a syndrome where the parents need for fame, wealth, and recognition (as gained through a child's accomplishments) takes priority over the child's needs and goals.

".....It is called achievement by proxy. As a result, such stage mothers or fathers—little league parents—push everyone hard, especially themselves and their children, and they brook no excuses for failing to make practice or the snack bar. Nothing is more important than the sport and they assume everyone else should have the same values. They become blind to the needs of others, especially the needs of their children..."

http://jerrykirkpatrick.blogspot.com/2011/02/tiger-mom-or-stage-mom.html

"...The American version emphasizes child beauty pageants, various sports competitions, and after-school SAT courses to game the test and insure acceptance to the “right” colleges. In a previous post, I touched on the achievement-by-proxy motivation of the stage-mother syndrome. Both kinds of parental behavior go by the old-fashioned name of authoritarianism.

The “stage mother” concept illustrates the possible consequences of such an overbearing parent and the Broadway musical Gypsy eloquently dramatizes what can happen. In the musical Rose, the mom, drags her two daughters, June and Louise, from city to city to perform in vaudeville shows. Disliking the pressures of the business, June elopes. Later, as vaudeville begins to wane, Louise stumbles onto a talent for striptease, taking the name and becoming the famous Gypsy Rose Lee. The mom is devastated and in real life—the musical is based on the memoirs of Gypsy Rose Lee—becomes estranged from her two daughters for many years.

The psychological consequence of authoritarianism is either rebellion or submission. Rarely is there anything in between. In Gypsy, June and Louise reflect the former reaction to the coercion of their mother. Submission means going along, losing one’s independence and individuality, seldom being able to pursue one’s own interests because of the demands of the activity and parent. Burnout in sports is well known, usually occurring in high school after years of pressured practices, perhaps year round, that began at the age of six. Parents of these pressured kids assume that nothing is wrong, because the child seemingly goes along with all of the practices and tournaments. The parent may even claim that his or her child is having “so much fun.” An outside observer, however, may be compelled to raise an eyebrow and ask, “Is she?” Objectivity may be lost even on well-meaning parents in today’s pressure-cooker life..."

___

Any of this sound familiar?