Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[SapphireSteel]

JBR had (allegedly) repeated bladder issues.

I'm no expert but I would imagine the quickest and easiest way to inflict damage on a childs bladder would be manually, by damaging/introducting bacteria through the urethra.

This could explain the old vaginal injury and lack of hymen.

 

[Solace]

I haven't been here in sooooooooooo long and I am sitting here watching danny de vito and then reading the polls and the language in the polls. This is a sad case, but some of you are just hilarious. With that said, and from what I can glean from Kolar's book, it would appear that Burke is the flavor of the month. And the poll agrees with that.

Case is interesting.

Also, the information about the feces all over the place is extremely interesting. I grew up with six brothers and sisters and we did NOT have that going on. So that is interesting. The feces all over the place - that is shocking to me. And I would be extremmmmmmmmmmmely concerned if my child were doing that. Extremely.

 

[BOESP]

I haven't been here in sooooooooooo long and I am sitting here watching danny de vito and then reading the polls and the language in the polls. This is a sad case, but some of you are just hilarious. With that said, and from what I can glean from Kolar's book, it would appear that Burke is the flavor of the month. And the poll agrees with that.

Case is interesting.

Also, the information about the feces all over the place is extremely interesting. I grew up with six brothers and sisters and we did NOT have that going on. So that is interesting. The feces all over the place - that is shocking to me. And I would be extremmmmmmmmmmmely concerned if my child were doing that. Extremely.

Nice to see you posting again Solace. I certainly agree with the (bolded by me) statement above. It bothers me a lot that three detectives came to three different conclusions (if I've correctly concluded the gist of Kolar's book):

Arndt = John Ramsey
Thomas = Patsy Ramsey
Kolar = perhaps Burke Ramsey

I assume they all saw the same evidence. The DNA testing, to me, is of little value in this case so I don't see how it could effect Arndt or Thomas's conclusions.

I haven't read Kolar's book yet. I haven't decided whether to order it or not but maybe KK will comment. I haven't seen any bad reviews of the book other than one whiny person who hadn't yet read it but was ticked anyway because it wasn't available in ebook format yet.

 

[sandover]

Nice to see you posting again Solace. I certainly agree with the (bolded by me) statement above. It bothers me a lot that three detectives came to three different conclusions (if I've correctly concluded the gist of Kolar's book):

Arndt = John Ramsey
Thomas = Patsy Ramsey
Kolar = perhaps Burke Ramsey

I assume they all saw the same evidence. The DNA testing, to me, is of little value in this case so I don't see how it could effect Arndt or Thomas's conclusions.

I haven't read Kolar's book yet. I haven't decided whether to order it or not but maybe KK will comment. I haven't seen any bad reviews of the book other than one whiny person who hadn't yet read it but was ticked anyway because it wasn't available in ebook format yet.

Being a crazy lady doesn't mean you killed your kid.

Being an odd, withdrawn boy doesn't mean you killed your sister.

Yes, all the Ramseys are odd in their own ways, but when you purely look at the evidence, it all -- ALL -- points to JR.

 

[JenniferTx]

Now Patsy and Burke are tied at 30 votes each.

 

[Bonnette]

It bothers me a lot that three detectives came to three different conclusions (if I've correctly concluded the gist of Kolar's book):

Arndt = John Ramsey
Thomas = Patsy Ramsey
Kolar = perhaps Burke Ramsey

I assume they all saw the same evidence.

I know, it's like Rashoman. Kolar's book was a breath of fresh air for me, since it seems to support what I've thought all along; but thinking does not make it so, and there are unanswered questions in any scenario put forward.

Three detectives arriving at three different conclusions does not surprise me in this case, since JR, PR and BR are all implicated in one way or another (if only through their physical presence in the house, and thus their capacity to have participated in whatever happened). The major point of divergence seems to be the degree of emphasis each detective puts upon the available evidence: three angles, three provisional conclusions. Absent a confession or the release of concretely compelling evidence, we are likely to remain locked in this tangle.

 

[DeeDee249]

No one knows when the pineapple was eaten.

According to PR, there WAS no pineapple.

:banghead:

I have explained many times over the years...we DO know when it was eaten. Not to the MINUTE, but we do know it was eaten after they returned home from the White's. It was eaten within approx. 2 hours of her death. They claimed to have returned home around 9-9:30 pm., so it was eaten between then and approx 11 pm- and frankly, that fits in perfectly with the time of death of midnight to 1 am. suggested by rigor mortis as well. It she ate it right after getting home, death came around midnight. If she ate it a little later, death was probably 1 am.
The pineapple exists- it is not a fantasy or a figment of RDI imagination. It was found in her small intestine at the autopsy, and later matched exactly to the pineapple found in the bowl and seen in photos. Food takes about 2 hours to reach the small intestine from the stomach.
There was soft green fecal material found in her large intestine. This would represent anything she ate at the White's. which would have moved further along in her digestive tract, and by the time it reaches the large intestine, it is not identifiable any more- it has been processed into feces.

 

[DeeDee249]

I know, it's like Rashoman. Kolar's book was a breath of fresh air for me, since it seems to support what I've thought all along; but thinking does not make it so, and there are unanswered questions in any scenario put forward.

Three detectives arriving at three different conclusions does not surprise me in this case, since JR, PR and BR are all implicated in one way or another (if only through their physical presence in the house, and thus their capacity to have participated in whatever happened). The major point of divergence seems to be the degree of emphasis each detective puts upon the available evidence: three angles, three provisional conclusions. Absent a confession or the release of concretely compelling evidence, we are likely to remain locked in this tangle.

I feel the same way. Arndt, Thomas and Kolar each arriving at a different R (but an R all the same) because they are ALL involved in it some way. I do not know whether Arndt has studied the case as much as the others- she very quickly was made a scapegoat for the blunders of the BPD (she WAS at fault, though not for all of them) and she developed "ramnesesia" right around the time she filed a lawsuit against the BPD. She was not involved in the case for long.
One thing to remember about Arndt. She was a rape victim specialist, not a homicide detective. She was trained to view women as victims. I am by no means belittling the horrible crime of rape or the suffering or rape victims, but Patsy appealed to her innate sense of viewing woman as vulnerable and men as aggressors. JR's mannerisms, and his behavior that day all raised red flags to her. Keep in mind that he was probably the only one she was watching closely. BR had been "hidden away" by removing from him ASAP to the White's before Arndt even got there that day, so she never saw his behavior. Patsy was surrounded by her pastor and "victims' advocates and the various friends they called over. I doubt Arndt really studied her either. She started out as sympathetic to Patsy.

 

[txsvicki]

I wonder about john. His story that night places jonbenet asleep yet burke said different. Lhp said he was cold and criticized patsy's lack of cooking and cleaning. I can't see any man wanting to run around at night befor an early trip delivering gifts that patsy should have already done. Then she stayed talking 15 minutes leaving him sitting in the car with kids. If he caught the kids up eating and getting into stuff he could have lost it the same as patsy over bedwetting. Finding israeli wool in jonbenet's panty crotch is pretty telling and both kids had poop issues. Burke's interview with the doctor could also be taken other ways than pointing to his own guilt.

 

[Bonnette]

I do not know whether Arndt has studied the case as much as the others- she very quickly was made a scapegoat for the blunders of the BPD (she WAS at fault, though not for all of them) and she developed "ramnesesia" right around the time she filed a lawsuit against the BPD. She was not involved in the case for long.
One thing to remember about Arndt. She was a rape victim specialist, not a homicide detective. She was trained to view women as victims. I am by no means belittling the horrible crime of rape or the suffering or rape victims, but Patsy appealed to her innate sense of viewing woman as vulnerable and men as aggressors. JR's mannerisms, and his behavior that day all raised red flags to her. Keep in mind that he was probably the only one she was watching closely. BR had been "hidden away" by removing from him ASAP to the White's before Arndt even got there that day, so she never saw his behavior. Patsy was surrounded by her pastor and "victims' advocates and the various friends they called over. I doubt Arndt really studied her either. She started out as sympathetic to Patsy.

Excellent points about Arndt. I do not put her in the same investigative category as Thomas or Kolar, by any means...it's just tragically emblematic of this case that she, who felt hinky about JR from the get-go and yet let him (well, all the R's) off the hook, should represent one aspect of the triad (Arndt-Thomas-Kolar) standing in counterpoint to JR-PR-BR. To me, this case is almost cosmically, mythically creepy.

 

[LinasK]

If we believe it was RDI, and know they contradicted their own stories and lied about the version of events from that night and the next morning, how do we believe anything they say about who did what that morning?

We can't be sure who, if anyone, even went to bed at all that night, much less really took a shower. Don't know if John even took a shower, just because he said it. Don't know if there was any alarm set for either of them to get up before the other at all, if they didn't even go to bed...

Need to keep in mind that maybe none of what they said -- their versions
(and there are multiple) should be considered truthful.... And at the most, partially truthful, and at the least, completely false with the true version of events.

Any Ramsey version is fabricated to cover up true events.

The truth doesn't change. Their versions did change.

This is what also concerns me about a JDI only version as well: if Patsy is no part of anything, her version, her truth, should never change- but her stories changed just as much as his did...

I think it was JDI with Patsy standing by her man and covering for him.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I look at the people in the house that night, and there's only one person whose behaviour afterwards is entirely natural to me.

That is Burkes.

I cannot fathom how you can have two such psychopathic individuals, adults, yet still point the finger at a child.

:moo:

 

[SapphireSteel]

I have explained many times over the years...we DO know when it was eaten. Not to the MINUTE, but we do know it was eaten after they returned home from the White's. It was eaten within approx. 2 hours of her death. They claimed to have returned home around 9-9:30 pm., so it was eaten between then and approx 11 pm- and frankly, that fits in perfectly with the time of death of midnight to 1 am. suggested by rigor mortis as well. It she ate it right after getting home, death came around midnight. If she ate it a little later, death was probably 1 am.
The pineapple exists- it is not a fantasy or a figment of RDI imagination. It was found in her small intestine at the autopsy, and later matched exactly to the pineapple found in the bowl and seen in photos. Food takes about 2 hours to reach the small intestine from the stomach.
There was soft green fecal material found in her large intestine. This would represent anything she ate at the White's. which would have moved further along in her digestive tract, and by the time it reaches the large intestine, it is not identifiable any more- it has been processed into feces.

Apparently you have more faith in the autopsy than I do. I think that guy was drunk judging by the amount of basic testing he DIDN'T perform.

:banghead:

And my comment on "no pineapple" is meant to be ironic...meaning PR lied about everything else, why not that as well?

:moo:

 

[dodie20]

I wonder about john. His story that night places jonbenet asleep yet burke said different. Lhp said he was cold and criticized patsy's lack of cooking and cleaning. I can't see any man wanting to run around at night befor an early trip delivering gifts that patsy should have already done. Then she stayed talking 15 minutes leaving him sitting in the car with kids. If he caught the kids up eating and getting into stuff he could have lost it the same as patsy over bedwetting. Finding israeli wool in jonbenet's panty crotch is pretty telling and both kids had poop issues. Burke's interview with the doctor could also be taken other ways than pointing to his own guilt.

A lot of the lies could possibly be traced back to the parents covering for BR, so I can understand why people think this. For example...JR saying JBR was asleep, would keep her contact with any of them, inluding their son, to almost zilch. The pineapple...PR denied it, so JBR couldn't have been sharing a snack with BR. PR, minimized the golf club incident, saying BR was a wee little guy, and it was an insignificent event, involving a wiffle ball...but it required her to seek medical treatment? About JR's timeline, regarding after the party. IMO, he's trying to make it seem like they got home later than they did. You're right. 15 minutes of waiting in the car, is rude... and he couldn't remember who went in and who stayed in the car? In the psychological interview, the dr. seemed sure that BR was lying about his bedwetting. She said lying about this, was unusual, so IMO, this was a big enough issue, for his parents to tell him to lie. So, maybe instead of JBR's toilet habits being the problem, it was actually BR's habits? Somebody smeared feces on chocolate, and I don't believe it was a parent, so which kid did it, is my question. After listening to the 911 yesterday, I'm rethinking a few things again. I don't know anything about tape emhancement, but I just assumed the experts, transcribed it to a tee, but what they said was PR, wailing for Jesus, and JR and BR in the background, doesn't jibe with what I heard. The syllables and inflections don't fit. For instance, unless PR pronounced the 2nd Jesus, in a weird way, that's not what she said. Also, where they said she said 'please', at the end, is said in an obvious child's voice, and I heard the word, 'nothing'... as an answer to,'what did you do'. I heard that same child's voice, a little earlier, say, 'freaking me out'. I never heard anything that sounded like an adut male, and what the experts said was JR saying, 'we're not talking to you', IMO was, ' talking to you'. Anyway, I think this tape needs to be reexamined, because surely, the equipment has been upgraded since then. There are a lot of beeps, etc. that interfer with the dialogue, but I think something different was going on during that 911. MOO.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

My post on considering it last year:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7012620&postcount=307

...about the same type of response or non-responsiveness, I guess... I mean, since most RDI people are 100% convinced that it could only possibly have been Patsy that wrote it, not much consideration or research is even given to the other Ramsey.

But if you don't consider all possibilities, you could lose out on important pieces of the puzzle...you'll never see it any other way...

So, you know people discount it and that's that... I don't discount it though.

Aside from the obvious possible Patsy elements in the note,
these are possible John elements I see / reasons for his RN involvement (or only author):
- handwriting characteristics
- spelling issue characteristic
- propensity for percentages
- harsh reference to kidnapping / drama movies - he liked drama/action/adventure and Dirty Harry, plus bestseller drama fiction
- reference to respecting John's business
- exact amount of John's bonus
- SBTC for signature - his association to Subic Bay, and his offering when asked what he conjectured, was of course, to a movie reference...
- his knowledge of fat cats and 'southern common sense' inside joke
- his first comment to Linda Arndt -- 'it's an inside job' -- he's pretty sure he knows who the perpetrator and what their motive is, the moment he brings her up....

- plus, even if it's obvious the similarities from the newsletters and writings that PATSY often wrote and sent out, she herself stated that SHE AND JOHN wrote things TOGETHER... so just because she 'wrote' the words on the holiday newsletters and some of the things that went out publicly, doesn't mean they were necessarily all HER OWN words....

so even if the RN reads like many of her writings... doesn't mean she was always the sole author of those writings -- and she wasn't...

Richard Gere, in An Officer and a Gentleman lived with his dad (Navy) in Subic Bay (his mother had committed suicide and I can't remember how.) and that was where he got the tattoo that he covered up at the first of the movie. Pasty said that they had a home theater and they had a drop down screen in their bedroom, so she could of watched it with John. It was a romantic movie, not one about a war. David Keith play the man who hung himself in the bathroom from a shower curtain rod. That movie came out in 1982.

Pasty had to call 911 at that time. They had a early morning flight and couldn't leave without JonBenet. They were to meet up with JAR and MR in a few hours. So they had to have a reason to help explain why she was gone. Why not put the ransom letter on the other stairs? It would of been "found" when they went looking for JonBenet when she wasn't in her bedroom.

Pasty said she was the one that tore open the packages in the basement because she forgot what was in them, but I think two kids went looking to see if there was more for them and I look forward to seeing whose DNA and fingerprints were on them. The pineapple to me was overlooked and wasn't important until JonBenet's autopsy. Would Burke of thought to redress her and change her panties after shoving something in her? That to me means an older person that had some time to think, then change and re stage what they wanted the police to think.

Some one I can't remember who, said something that stuck with me, and that was that the head bash was not an accident, but was a unintentional act. So Burke is still in the mix for me.

 

[SapphireSteel]

People often overlook the fact that PR was already abusing JBR.

I'm referring to the beauty pageants. That little girl was teased, poked, prodded, paraded, plucked, bleached, drilled, she'd had painful dental work so she didn't have gaps in her teeth for the photos. She was not allowed to be a child, she was a vessel for her mother's failed ambitions.

That is child abuse in my book. How people say she appeared to be a loving mother is beyond me.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

It happened, but many years earlier when both children were babies. People seem to believe Burke was jealous of his sister, using the fact that he hit her with a golf club as an example, however this was an every day accident by a toddler with (obviously) inattentive parents, not a vengeful swipe as is being portrayed. Burke loved his sister.

That is what I mean by fallacious.

:moo:

JonBenet walked in the way of Burke playing. That's all it's ever been to me. If you want to place any blame then blame Pasty for not watching JonBenet close enough.

 

[dodie20]

People often overlook the fact that PR was already abusing JBR.

I'm referring to the beauty pageants. That little girl was teased, poked, prodded, paraded, plucked, bleached, drilled, she'd had painful dental work so she didn't have gaps in her teeth for the photos. She was not allowed to be a child, she was a vessel for her mother's failed ambitions.

That is child abuse in my book. How people say she appeared to be a loving mother is beyond me.

If this was abuse, PR wasn't the only one committing it., JonBenet had another parent, and to hear him talk, the pageants were just a fun little hobby. He tried to minimize his involvement, but he did admit to going to the pageants, and surely he notced the bleached hair, and lessons, and dental work, etc...which he paid for, IMO. JR gets no pass here. The same thing with the dr visits. There's no way the husband/father, didn't know about them. MOO.

 

[UKGuy]

Richard Gere, in An Officer and a Gentleman lived with his dad (Navy) in Subic Bay (his mother had committed suicide and I can't remember how.) and that was where he got the tattoo that he covered up at the first of the movie. Pasty said that they had a home theater and they had a drop down screen in their bedroom, so she could of watched it with John. It was a romantic movie, not one about a war. David Keith play the man who hung himself in the bathroom from a shower curtain rod. That movie came out in 1982.

Pasty had to call 911 at that time. They had a early morning flight and couldn't leave without JonBenet. They were to meet up with JAR and MR in a few hours. So they had to have a reason to help explain why she was gone. Why not put the ransom letter on the other stairs? It would of been "found" when they went looking for JonBenet when she wasn't in her bedroom.

Pasty said she was the one that tore open the packages in the basement because she forgot what was in them, but I think two kids went looking to see if there was more for them and I look forward to seeing whose DNA and fingerprints were on them. The pineapple to me was overlooked and wasn't important until JonBenet's autopsy. Would Burke of thought to redress her and change her panties after shoving something in her? That to me means an older person that had some time to think, then change and re stage what they wanted the police to think.

Some one I can't remember who, said something that stuck with me, and that was that the head bash was not an accident, but was a unintentional act. So Burke is still in the mix for me.

ILikeToBendPage,
You make some good points.

Pasty said she was the one that tore open the packages in the basement because she forgot what was in them, but I think two kids went looking to see if there was more for them and I look forward to seeing whose DNA and fingerprints were on them.

Of course Patsy never forgot what was in them. Even if she did, what are they doing in the wine-cellar? Tamper-proof for JonBenet, but certainly not for Burke.

On the wine-cellar I reckon Patsy showns distinct signs of improvisation, she offers reasons why objects should be there, but on closer analysis, her answers are suspect.

So who is she covering for? This is the 64K Q, because we cannot eliminate any R, but we can implicate Patsy. So its either PDI straight off, or she is covering for another R?

Then there is Patsy's explanation for the size-12's, which we all know is nonsense, yet she offered it willingly, so again a point of improvisation, a point where one is not required if she had redressed JonBenet.

Then there is the pineapple, as a parent she should have been aware JonBenet was snacking pineapple that evening, not removing the evidence from the breakfast bar, suggests she either forgot or was ignorant regarding the significance of the bowl containing the remaining chunks of pineapple. Her response: denial of ownership, suggesting total ignorance. Otherwise she could have improvised suggesting JonBenet must have risen and snacked?

So could Burke and JonBenet have been snacking late into the evening with the parents clueless and ignorant to their behaviour? Could Burke have enticed JonBenet down to the basement to look for gifts, dont forget an album of pageant photographs with JonBenet as the subject was also found in the basement, so they open the gifts, and possibly return back upstairs to Burke's bedroom, not JonBenet's since her bed was never made up. So with the combination of illicit gifts and abuse taking place, this might be the trigger which causes either the head trauma, or asphyxiation that is alleged to lead to the final death of JonBenet? e.g. BR does not want to be found with the gifts partially opened or allegedly abusing JonBenet.

So if we assume JonBenet was wearing her pink pajamas, Burke decides to change these for the Pink Barbie Nightgown, and relocates JonBenet, who is still alive, to her own bed, thereby causing blood seepage to stain the pillowcase on her bed.


At some point the parents discover JonBenet, then the staging proper begins, either upstairs or in the basement JonBenet is quickly wiped down with John's Israeli manufactured shirt, redressed in the size-12's, along with the white longjohns, and gap-top, all to hide the acute abuse.

Along comes Patsy and the staging takes another turn, she decides to asphyxiate JonBenet, possibly assaulting her internally, as she fabricates the garrote? then she is wrapped in the white blanket. But Patsy never saw the size-12's going on!

So what to do with all the stuff that had been part of the primary crime-scene? Do you leave it in the house, so it can be found, then this will require explanations as to why the intruder interacted with these items, same questions arise if you dump it outdoors along with JonBenet. So it was placed into the wine-cellar along with JonBenet, e.g. the bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown, the Barbie Doll, and all the Partially Opened Christmas Gifts.


So was the Barbie Doll offered as a reward for the alleged acute abuse? Did Burke know JonBenet was to be given this on her vacation? Was it this the scenario that span out of control leading to JonBenet lying comatose in BRs bedroom?


.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Intruder. Straight up intruder. There is no proof of any of the theories about the family. No history of abuse, no sexual abuse, no malicious intent.

I believe that Patsy loved that child and would not have harmed her for anything. I believe that some sick person came in and took the child down to the basement and killed and molested her.

I think of all the cases where children were taken from their home and the parents were grilled and even imprisoned when it was some crazy sicko.

I know I am in the minority here. I am not much of a conspiracy theorist. I like facts and to get me to believe a parent did this to their child, You need to prove it to me. Not with comments or whisper down the lane information that become fact the more people hear them but real facts. Real proof.

To blame a 9 yr old kid? That is just as horrible to me.

I hope in her fathers lifetime they find the person that did this to his daughter.