Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

LOL. The paint tote was upstairs most of the time. She may have handled it numerous times when wearing the jacket - just moving it out of the way, or repositioning it so JB would have room for drawing. It's not like LHP was the only person who actually ever carried it around. LE wasn't bright enough to ask about this. They asked if she wore it painting. Of course, she didn't. She'd take it off and put on a smock, or an old shirt/top that she didn't care about.

PR may also have transfered the fibers to LHP who may have transfered them to the tote.

I wouldn't be inclined to believe her if she said she wore the jacket while painting - who would? But she could have manufactured an explanation that would satisfy even you, had she lied. Yet, she did not manufacture that lie. She told the truth.

Chrishope,
You cannot demonstrate that Pasty touched the tote, whilst wearing the jacket, when painting.

There can be a million and one reasons for the R's fibers being located on JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

I am asserting they are there because JR and PR took part in crime-scene staging.

You have no evidence to the contrary. So this places Patricia Ramsey at the crime-scene.


.

 

[dodie20]

My guess is they knew little to nothing about fiber transfer and did not plan for it at all. You have to remember that out there, away from crime web sites - you know where there are people with real lives - most people don't talk about primary/secondary transfer of fibers. Most people would never think about it.

As for showering, I don't know how much we can make of it, except to say that JR showered and PR didn't (apparently). Usually we'd figure taking a show is to get clean - both in the everyday sense, and in the criminal/forensic sense.

As far as ever day type showering, some people like to do it in the morning I guess. JR didn't really get dirty in a blue collar sense. He just sat in an air conditioned office and wheeled and dealed, so I suppose he wasn't really going to bed "dirty".

yes, I doubt they knew about fiber evidence, but, if PR had been up all night, abusing and murdering her daughter, and staging the crime scene, I do believe she would have changed clothes... probably putting on bed clothes, to hide the fact that she hadn't been to bed. But, even though I doubt they understood fibers, I do think they were aware of physical, bodily eveidence, in general. Even the most amateur, common criminal, knows to clean up, and get rid of his clothes. That's why, JR showering, but not PR, bothers me. If she abused and murdered JBR, she would have been covered in evidence, so why didn't she shower and change clothes? If she wrote the note, and then heard JR get up, she could have been crunched for time, but she could have put it where he probably wouldn't find it, and then jumped in another shower, and then started the whole charade a little later. PR, finding the note, wouldn't have been crucial, to her alibi. Anyway, JR showering, but not PR, really bothers me. Especially, if like so many people think, they were in on something together. This would mean he knew JBR was dead in the basement, and who would take a shower at a time like that? Something isn't right with the theory of them both knowing what happened. MOO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

No one could actually confirm the time of JBR's death right?

We do not know how long elapsed between her arriving home, and being murdered. In between that, there was also staging and molestation.

This could have been very, very time consuming.

JMO.

 

[SapphireSteel]

yes, I doubt they knew about fiber evidence, but, if PR had been up all night, abusing and murdering her daughter, and staging the crime scene, I do believe she would have changed clothes... probably putting on bed clothes, to hide the fact that she hadn't been to bed. But, even though I doubt they understood fibers, I do think they were aware of physical, bodily eveidence, in general. Even the most amateur, common criminal, knows to clean up, and get rid of his clothes. That's why, JR showering, but not PR, bothers me. If she abused and murdered JBR, she would have been covered in evidence, so why didn't she shower and change clothes? If she wrote the note, and then heard JR get up, she could have been crunched for time, but she could have put it where he probably wouldn't find it, and then jumped in another shower, and then started the whole charade a little later. PR, finding the note, wouldn't have been crucial, to her alibi. Anyway, JR showering, but not PR, really bothers me. Especially, if like so many people think, they were in on something together. This would mean he knew JBR was dead in the basement, and who would take a shower at a time like that? Something isn't right with the theory of them both knowing what happened. MOO.

What about if you add in the fact that they weren't expecting to be suspects?

That will account for everything.

PR would not need to change clothes to confirm she'd been in bed, as JR could confirm it for her.

:moo:

 

[DeeDee249]

SapphireSteel,
Sure, and once we were all a baby! But compare the R's reaction here to that on the night of her head injury, whats different, you decide?


.

An appalling example of LE just letting the Rs "version" go unquestioned. In 1993 JB was THREE years old, right? She was 6 when she died in 1996. BR is 4 years older.. He was 2 weeks short of 10 when JB was killed. He wasn't "just a little guy, 2 or 3" in 1993. He was about 7 years old when he hit his sister with that golf club. He was by NO means a baby. In fact, he had reached the generally accepted "age of reason"- 7 years old- the age at which most children are presumed to be able to tell right from wrong, reality from fantasy.

 

[UKGuy]

An appalling example of LE just letting the Rs "version" go unquestioned. In 1993 JB was THREE years old, right? She was 6 when she died in 1996. BR is 4 years older.. He was 2 weeks short of 10 when JB was killed. He wasn't "just a little guy, 2 or 3" in 1993. He was about 7 years old when he hit his sister with that golf club. He was by NO means a baby. In fact, he had reached the generally accepted "age of reason"- 7 years old- the age at which most children are presumed to be able to tell right from wrong, reality from fantasy.

DeeDee249,
ITA, the longer I try to work out WDI, the more I think, were the passes like the one you relate, a mistake, or deliberate?

And in the interview with Patsy about the size-12's, where they glide past the pink nightgown and the Barbie Doll, so much so, nearly nobody picks up that there was a doll lying in the wine-cellar.

Why so? Well once I read Kolar's book, maybe BDI will be higher up my list.


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
You cannot demonstrate that Pasty touched the tote, whilst wearing the jacket, when painting.

There can be a million and one reasons for the R's fibers being located on JonBenet in the wine-cellar.

I am asserting they are there because JR and PR took part in crime-scene staging.

You have no evidence to the contrary. So this places Patricia Ramsey at the crime-scene.


.

There is no need to demonstrate it. It's a very strong possibility. You can't demonstrate that she didn't touch the tote with her jacket on, and you can't demonstrate she didn't touch Linda who then transferred the fibers to the tote. You also can't demonstrate that she didn't touch JB when wearing the jacket and JB transferred fibers to the tote. Nor can you demonstrate she didn't touch JR when wearing the jacket and JR transferred the fibers to the various objects.

You're version is also possible. But it's only possible. It's not a fact.

 

[UKGuy]

No one could actually confirm the time of JBR's death right?

We do not know how long elapsed between her arriving home, and being murdered. In between that, there was also staging and molestation.

This could have been very, very time consuming.

JMO.

SapphireSteel,
Not to the minute, but the digestion of the pineapple in her stomach, and the arrival back from the White's party offer a timeframe between 9PM and 1AM.


.

 

[Chrishope]

yes, I doubt they knew about fiber evidence, but, if PR had been up all night, abusing and murdering her daughter, and staging the crime scene, I do believe she would have changed clothes... probably putting on bed clothes, to hide the fact that she hadn't been to bed. But, even though I doubt they understood fibers, I do think they were aware of physical, bodily eveidence, in general. Even the most amateur, common criminal, knows to clean up, and get rid of his clothes. That's why, JR showering, but not PR, bothers me. If she abused and murdered JBR, she would have been covered in evidence, so why didn't she shower and change clothes? If she wrote the note, and then heard JR get up, she could have been crunched for time, but she could have put it where he probably wouldn't find it, and then jumped in another shower, and then started the whole charade a little later. PR, finding the note, wouldn't have been crucial, to her alibi. Anyway, JR showering, but not PR, really bothers me. Especially, if like so many people think, they were in on something together. This would mean he knew JBR was dead in the basement, and who would take a shower at a time like that? Something isn't right with the theory of them both knowing what happened. MOO.

Well I definitely agree that there is something wrong with the theory that both knew what happened.

I also think that you're right that PR probably would have showered and changed clothes. So what I used to regard as suspicious now seems to suggest she wasn't involved.

I'm less troubled than you are by JR showering. I mean, I suspect it's a JDI case, but people do shower in the morning.

I don't think PR could have dressed in yesterdays clothes if that was an unusual thing for her to do - not if she worked alone. That would be a tip off to JR.

 

[UKGuy]

There is no need to demonstrate it. It's a very strong possibility. You can't demonstrate that she didn't touch the tote with her jacket on, and you can't demonstrate she didn't touch Linda who then transferred the fibers to the tote. You also can't demonstrate that she didn't touch JB when wearing the jacket and JB transferred fibers to the tote. Nor can you demonstrate she didn't touch JR when wearing the jacket and JR transferred the fibers to the various objects.

You're version is also possible. But it's only possible. It's not a fact.

Chrishope,

You're version is also possible. But it's only possible. It's not a fact.

I never claimed it as fact. I am asserting that Patricia Ramsey assisted in the staging of her daughters death.

Fibers found at the crime-scene corroborate this. Arguments regarding what I cannot demonstrate are redundant.

What it does demonstrate is that the there is a very LARGE hole in your theory that John Ramsey acted alone in the killing of JonBenet Ramsey.


.

 

[DeeDee249]

The time of death is known, it just wasn't put in the report. Rigor mortis and the fact that digestion stops at death give a pretty good estimate of the TOD. The coroner (among his other lapses from proper procedure) failed to perform two important procedures when he first attended the body. He also knows the approximate time of death.
He failed to do a core body temperature (usually a liver stab with a special thermometer). And he failed to take a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball to test potassium levels. Both are standard procedures used to determine TOD. It is perplexing why he failed to do these, but it is also shows an appalling lack of attention to proper procedures that he used dirty, unsterile nail clippers when clipping JB's nails. I am so disturbed that NO one involved in the case seemed to be upset about any of this.
There are several ways to determine TOD. In addition to the two procedures I mentioned, livor mortis (which is used more to determine whether a body had been moved after death or died in a location other than where it was found), rigor mortis (which proceeds in an expected 36-hour arc in indoor temperatures), there is also algor mortis (which is the loss of body heat in a predicted arc).

In this case, algor mortis and the potassium levels in the eye were not taken into account.

 

[UKGuy]

The time of death is known, it just wasn't put in the report. Rigor mortis and the fact that digestion stops at death give a pretty good estimate of the TOD. The coroner (among his other lapses from proper procedure) failed to perform two important procedures when he first attended the body.
He failed to do a core body temperature (usually a liver stab with a special thermometer). And he failed to take a sample of the vitreous fluid of the eyeball to test potassium levels. Both are standard procedures used to determine TOD. There are several ways to determine TOD. In addition to the two procedures I mentioned, livor mortis (which is used more to determine whether a body had been moved after death or died in a location other than where it was found), rigor mortis (which proceeds in an expected 36-hour arc in indoor temperatures), there is also algor mortis (which is the loss of body heat in a predicted arc).

In this case, algor mortis and the potassium levels in the eye were not taken into account.

DeeDee249,
Just wonder why there was this procedural lapse?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

I never claimed it as fact. I am asserting that Patricia Ramsey assisted in the staging of her daughters death.

Fibers found at the crime-scene corroborate this. Arguments regarding what I cannot demonstrate are redundant.

What it does demonstrate is that the there is a very LARGE hole in your theory that John Ramsey acted alone in the killing of JonBenet Ramsey.


.

There is no hole at all. There is a perfectly plausible explanation for the fibers. Secondary transfer. It's at least as likely as your theory. There is no reason JR couldn't have worked alone and there could still be PRs fibers from secondary, tertiary..... transfer.

There are probably red jacket fibers all over the house. That's the point. There is no way to know how they got there. It's not like PR being in the basement at the time of the murder is the only way they could get there. IMO It's not even the most probable theory.

You can assert anything you want, but there are other explanations that are just as likely.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Not to the minute, but the digestion of the pineapple in her stomach, and the arrival back from the White's party offer a timeframe between 9PM and 1AM.


.

No one knows when the pineapple was eaten.

According to PR, there WAS no pineapple.

:banghead:

 

[UKGuy]

No one knows when the pineapple was eaten.

According to PR, there WAS no pineapple.

:banghead:

SapphireSteel,
Well if you consider the rigor mortis timeframe, and the partial digestion of the pineapple, I think you might come up with a time of death somewhere between 11PM and 12:30AM.

 

[UKGuy]

There is no hole at all. There is a perfectly plausible explanation for the fibers. Secondary transfer. It's at least as likely as your theory. There is no reason JR couldn't have worked alone and there could still be PRs fibers from secondary, tertiary..... transfer.

There are probably red jacket fibers all over the house. That's the point. There is no way to know how they got there. It's not like PR being in the basement at the time of the murder is the only way they could get there. IMO It's not even the most probable theory.

You can assert anything you want, but there are other explanations that are just as likely.

Chrishope,
Rhetoric is no substitute for sound reason. Your theory is dead in the water. Nobody is interested if there are red fibers all over the house, thats not the issue, its the wine-cellar, you know that place down in the basement where Patsy said she never visited.

There is no reason JR couldn't have worked alone

Yes there is, I can place Patsy in the wine-cellar the night JonBenet died!

No amount of hand waiving can save your JDI theory, its kaput.


.

 

[SapphireSteel]

SapphireSteel,
Well if you consider the rigor mortis timeframe, and the partial digestion of the pineapple, I think you might come up with a time of death somewhere between 11PM and 12:30AM.

None of these are exact. Rigour would tend to indicate a lot, but doesn't that depend on temperature?

Was JBR moved?

:dunno:

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Rhetoric is no substitute for sound reason. Your theory is dead in the water. Nobody is interested if there are red fibers all over the house, thats not the issue, its the wine-cellar, you know that place down in the basement where Patsy said she never visited.

Yes there is, I can place Patsy in the wine-cellar the night JonBenet died!

No amount of hand waiving can save your JDI theory, its kaput.


.

With respect, you seem to be the one on the defensive and waiving.

You can't place PR there, you can only place her fibers there. The fibers could be there from secondary transfer.

There is no problem with the theory JR worked alone, unless you can prove that it would be impossible (I'll even settle for highly improbable) for him to have done so and still have PRs fibers in the tote, the garrotte, and on the tape.

But of course, it's not impossible. It's not at all far fetched. It is in fact quite probable. The fibers can be there from secondary transfer.

They are probably red jacket fibers in other parts of the basement too, but of course other parts of the basement were not tested for fibers. That's why it's an issue.

It would be nice if we had info on how many fibers were present -is there such info? That might help us get closer to an answer. For now, all we know is that fibers were there, which tells us very little. Secondary transfer easily explains their presence.

 

[Chrishope]

None of these are exact. Rigour would tend to indicate a lot, but doesn't that depend on temperature?

Was JBR moved?

:dunno:

No, there is no way to pinpoint the TOD. You have to be satisfied with a range.

 

[Lera213]

JonBenet 911 call FULL (high quality with subtitles) - YouTube

Turn the volume way up and you'll hear it. It's not real clear what she"s saying, but with the advantage of knowing what to listen for you'll hear it.

I hear her say in the background "What did you do, what did you do" am I correct? at the 1:19 to 1:22 mark I hear her say this. using high quality head phones