Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[OpenMind4U]

To everyone,

Does anyone knows the SIZE of suitcase which has been found under the window? or the model of it?.....

 

[OpenMind4U]

From your reference, OM: These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase.

A couple of thoughts, with the duvet found inside the suitcase. It could have been put in there, then JB placed inside, and if it was found she wouldn't fit properly (though I have seen a sketch demonstration some where showing she might have), she was taken back out, but the duvet left there.

Or, she could have been wrapped in the duvet and carried from wherever she was felled to whatever the next step was in the crime, and then the duvet stuffed into the suitcase in an attempt to hide it.

Or it could have been in use wherever the molestation that occurred that night happened, or even during a former molestation, and was put into the suitcase to keep it out of sight. The lab analysis thought there was molestation approximately 72 hours prior to her death, as well as previous chronic molestation.

The duvet connects to the overall scenario in one way or the other, IMHO

OMG, we posted at the same time!!!!! SPOOKY......

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,

As have been asked by you, here is 'confirmation' in addition to MM post above (thank you MM for help!). I don't know how reliable it is but....



If above is the FACT than we have problem properly understanding the true meaning of duvet INSIDE of suitcase.

jmo

OpenMind4U,
Some thoughts: I think the White Gap Top was new? JonBenet was wearing it for the first time to the Whites?

So what are fibers from a duvet and sham doing on it? Just one item, ok thats a coincidence but two items, well that must mean the they came in contact with the White Gap Top?

Did the duvet have a cover over it, or had it been removed? It does appear the contents of the suitcase are linked in some manner.

It might be JonBenet was abused in the spare bedroom, with presumed evidence removed and as per the wine-cellar potential evidence was dumped down in the basement?

Or JonBenet was carried unconcious in the duvet and pillow down to the basement, or they were used to comfort Jonbenet after the head bash. They do seem to have played some role, otherwise why discard them?

Speculating: I can see JonBenet moving from the Breakfast-Bar to the spare bedroom, where someone will read from the Dr. Seuss book?

.

 

[dodie20]

MM, the 4th picture on cynic post shows clearly that when person is standing BY THE ENTRANCE his shadow overlays the visiability of switchbox. In addition, like it was stated by ST, the switch was in unusual place, way from the standard code for placement of any electrical light switch. Looks to me that this switchbox was the temperarly placement and electrician never finished his work. So, I have no doubts that FW was saying the truth and he did everything he could in these circumstances.

In regards of the blanket, it's still bothering me the situation with JAR's duvet. It was stated that fibers from duvet was found on JB. Just recently, I brought this subject on with suggestion that JB could possibly be covered with/IN this duvet first... but DeeDee said that she never heard about these fibers. And who knows better all FACTS than her?

So, if duvet fibers were REALLY founded on JB then it opens much bigger can of warms. Who and when takes duvet from WC and put it in suitcase? I kind of know the answers...but, want to make sure that FACTS are true before making any speculations.

Something else, while talking about CANS. Depends on the cans size and their quantity in WC, they can very well be used to abstruct the view of the body. I simply don't believe that JR 'found' JB at 1:00pm. All FACTS point to him lying! Even without FW's prior search! It would be plenty enough to have FW testimony on HOW JR founds the body without getting inside and without turning the light.

jmo

Here's another thing to think about where the suitcase is concerned. There was a child's book in it, right? a Dr Seus, of some sort? Now, who, according to the police report, said he read to JonBenet that night? JR. He later corrected the report and said he meant he read to himself in his own bed, but really, this would not be a normal misunderstanding. If he said he went to bed and read to himself, how would an officer misinterpret this into JR reading to JB and or BR? Does anybody know if there is another reference to him reading to JonBenet? In an interview or one of his books?

 

[Nom de plume]

MM, OM, UK & Dodie

Yes, yes, yes! They do play into this somehow. UK I think it was the duvet cover, not the actual duvet itself. The abuse that night may have started in her room, hence the blood on the pillow. Then at some point she's moved to JAR's room for what ever reason. Then on to the basement for the garotte and the staging.

I wonder why the duvet cover, sham, and book were stashed in the suitcase, but other things left with JB?

 

[midwest mama]

to everyone,

does anyone knows the size of suitcase which has been found under the window? Or the model of it?.....

[/attach][/attach][/attach][/attach]

Do all of these open for you? The blue ones are examples of the size of the R suitcase. Cynic referenced these to me in another post some months ago, and they are supposed to be the same size and type as the R's, which is also pictured above.

I do remember reading that the suitcase was too large to fit through the window opening in the train room.

 

[dodie20]

MM, OM, UK & Dodie

Yes, yes, yes! They do play into this somehow. UK I think it was the duvet cover, not the actual duvet itself. The abuse that night may have started in her room, hence the blood on the pillow. Then at some point she's moved to JAR's room for what ever reason. Then on to the basement for the garotte and the staging.

I wonder why the duvet cover, sham, and book were stashed in the suitcase, but other things left with JB?

maybe because somebody(s), mentally separated this into 2 different events?

 

[UKGuy]

MM, OM, UK & Dodie

Yes, yes, yes! They do play into this somehow. UK I think it was the duvet cover, not the actual duvet itself. The abuse that night may have started in her room, hence the blood on the pillow. Then at some point she's moved to JAR's room for what ever reason. Then on to the basement for the garotte and the staging.

I wonder why the duvet cover, sham, and book were stashed in the suitcase, but other things left with JB?

Nom de plume,
Another interpretation is that the contents of the suitcase represent a last sweep through the bedroom, so to remove any evidence.

Alternatively they might be the remains of a prior staging, which was dismantled.

It does appear the R's seemed to arrive at the kidnapping scenario late in the day, forcing them to basically scoop up stuff and dump it into the basement?


Now your remarks about it being the duvet cover is interesting, was there not some issue over the bedclothing on JonBenet's bed?

If it is just the cover, where is the duvet it covered ?


.

 

[midwest mama]

MM, OM, UK & Dodie

Yes, yes, yes! They do play into this somehow. UK I think it was the duvet cover, not the actual duvet itself. The abuse that night may have started in her room, hence the blood on the pillow. Then at some point she's moved to JAR's room for what ever reason. Then on to the basement for the garotte and the staging.

I wonder why the duvet cover, sham, and book were stashed in the suitcase, but other things left with JB?

Because the cover, sham and book were on the spot when JB was being molested/bashed and could be attached to the commission of the crime, but the other items were gifts of comfort to JB/thought to be staging?

But JR said of the nightgown, "that wasn't supposed to be there" when he saw a photo of the crime. Had it been overlooked when getting rid of crime evidence? If the doll was a new Christmas gift, and found with her, it might enhance the premise of her taken from her bed, since lots of little girls like to have their Christmas dolls in bed with them.

If the ransom note scenario would have succeeded, let's say by JR, wouldn't it have been easy for him to dispose of the suitcase pretty easily too at some point when 'going after the ransom money'? Why would anyone ever be led to look for that piece of evidence after the fact of the kidnapping? Would have been totally believable in any dumpster as a piece of trash. Perhaps the nightgown was supposed to go in there also, but as a second thought, just in case the old suitcase surfaced somewhere with old bedding and an old book in it, it would still be safe from scrutiny by the 'finder' if it didn't have a bloody nightgown in it. Perhaps that's when the nightgown got tucked in by JB - planning to dispose of it in another manner or place later on when the suitcase and body were dumped. All:moo:

 

[UKGuy]

Here's another thing to think about where the suitcase is concerned. There was a child's book in it, right? a Dr Seus, of some sort? Now, who, according to the police report, said he read to JonBenet that night? JR. He later corrected the report and said he meant he read to himself in his own bed, but really, this would not be a normal misunderstanding. If he said he went to bed and read to himself, how would an officer misinterpret this into JR reading to JB and or BR? Does anybody know if there is another reference to him reading to JonBenet? In an interview or one of his books?

Perfect Murder Perfect Town, Excerpt

During a conversation between John Ramsey and Detective Arndt on the morning of December 26, Ramsey said that the family arrived home at about 10:00 P.M. Christmas night. Ramsey parked their Jeep Cherokee next to their Jaguar in the garage, he said. According to a police report, he carried JonBenét, who was still asleep, upstairs to her room, where he took her shoes off and read to her. Patsy undressed her, remembered singing a bedtime song to her while she slept, and kissed her good night. Meanwhile, Burke was downstairs playing with a model he’d gotten for Christmas and didn’t want to go to bed. John helped his son finish what he was doing and then took him upstairs and put him to bed before he himself retired

dodie20,
JR makes it appear as if everyone is in bed for 10:30 pm.



.

 

[OpenMind4U]

So Guys/Girls,

What do we have so far?:

- JR has told police officers early in morning on 26th that he did read BOOK to JB the night before (reference: LE report in PMPT and ST books);
- JR has told BPD during his interrogation that he moved suitcase to BASEMENT but has no knowledge what was inside and has no knowledge what DUVET means (reference: Police Files Interview);
- inside of the suitcase was DUVET, SHAM and BOOK;
- DUVET and SHAM belongs to JAR; he used them in college dorm only (based on Patsy testimony. Does it confirms with JAR???);
- fibers from DUVET/SHAM were on JB shirt;
- JB was found in Basement, suitcase with DUVET/SHAME/BOOK was fount in basement as well.

Questions:


- WHEN (before murder or part of murder or during staging?) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?
- WHERE (in which room: basement? bedroom? WC??) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?
- HOW (part of the crime/murder/staging or part of molestation?) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?

Scenario/Theory:

??????? O, my head is spinning!!!!!!!!! I told you that these duvet fibers will open the can of warms... I think we need separate thread for this DUVET FIBERS DISCUSSION. ...MM, could you lead please and open new thread (pretty please?

 

[UKGuy]

So Guys/Girls,

What do we have so far?:

- JR has told police officers early in morning on 26th that he did read BOOK to JB the night before (reference: LE report in PMPT and ST books);
- JR has told BPD during his interrogation that he moved suitcase to BASEMENT but has no knowledge what was inside and has no knowledge what DUVET means (reference: Police Files Interview);
- inside of the suitcase was DUVET, SHAM and BOOK;
- DUVET and SHAM belongs to JAR; he used them in college dorm only (based on Patsy testimony. Does it confirms with JAR???);
- fibers from DUVET/SHAM were on JB shirt;
- JB was found in Basement, suitcase with DUVET/SHAME/BOOK was fount in basement as well.

Questions:


- WHEN (before murder or during staging?) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?
- WHERE (in which room: basement? bedroom? WC??) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?
- HOW (part of the crime/murder/staging or part of molestation?) the fibers from duvet/shame stored inside of suitcase got on JB shirt?

Scenario/Theory:

??????? O, my head is spinning!!!!!!!!! I told you that these duvet fibers will open the can of warms...

OpenMind4U,
OK, so the sham and duvet were used by JAR. Why would John move the suitcase to the basement?

Prima facie either JonBenet wearing White Gap Top came in contact with the sham and duvet or just the White Gap Top on its own?

Maybe the theory that someone attempted to place JonBenet into the suitcase is correct? It does not make sense to me, but who knows?

I could make a case for JonBenet being stuffed into the suitcase, with the intention of dumping her outdoors, but Patsy said no, she did not want her baby to be treated in such a manner? So they changed tack and came up with the kidnapping scenario, which kept JonBenet indoors?

So the fibers may have arrived during the staging, either upstairs in the spare bedroom, a bedroom, or alternatively down in the basement?

Whichever you decide it has to be the latter part of the staging whether you think she was to be relocated outdoors, or not.

.
.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
OK, so the sham and duvet were used by JAR. Why would John move the suitcase to the basement?

Prima facie either JonBenet wearing White Gap Top came in contact with the sham and duvet or just the White Gap Top on its own?

Maybe the theory that someone attempted to place JonBenet into the suitcase is correct? It does not make sense to me, but who knows?

I could make a case for JonBenet being stuffed into the suitcase, with the intention of dumping her outdoors, but Patsy said no, she did not want her baby to be treated in such a manner? So they changed tack and came up with the kidnapping scenario, which kept JonBenet indoors?

So the fibers may have arrived during the staging, either upstairs in the spare bedroom, a bedroom, or alternatively down in the basement?

Whichever you decide it has to be the latter part of the staging whether you think she was to be relocated outdoors, or not.

.
.

UKGuy,

Aha, but here we have one small problem...John stated that he moved suitcase to basement awhile back...not on 25th! and JB's top with silver star is new, just recently purchased....so, WHEN DUVET was placed in suitcase?
Would you agree: the last person who placed duvet in suitcase at the minimum is participant of the staging??? And if you agree then here is the larger question: what role duvet played in JBR murder????? why it was important to hide it in suitcase???...rope is still visiable, the blanket still visiable...why duvet must be inside suitcase with the book???

Do you feel like someone was trying to separate two 'plays', two 'roles'??? Because so far the only things were concealed are the 'sexual'-related actions (cleaning, redressing) to 'hide' acute injury....So, IMO duvet was part of the last sexual incounter...which makes me think that something else has been found on duvet and kept in secret from public....(just speculation)....





jmo

 

[dodie20]

Perfect Murder Perfect Town, Excerpt


dodie20,
JR makes it appear as if everyone is in bed for 10:30 pm.



.

They also make their life sound like a Christmas episode of Leave it to Beaver. Everything was peachy king...but who reads or sings to a sleeping child? especially when as they admit, they were exhausted? and had just gotten home from an hours long party, then delivered gifts and looked at Christmas light displays, and still had packing and 'laundry to wash out', and had 2 big trips to get ready for, and the house was a mess...were they just going to leave it like this while they were gone? None of this rings true. I would at least clean my kitchen and put the food away if I was going on a trip, kwim? Who wants to come home to corroded dishes or rotten food on the table? I know PR was said to be messy, but this isn't just messy, this is something else. IMO, she probably DID intend to clean up, but got busy with something more important.

 

[OpenMind4U]

They also make their life sound like a Christmas episode of Leave it to Beaver. Everything was peachy king...but who reads or sings to a sleeping child? especially when as they admit, they were exhausted? and had just gotten home from an hours long party, then delivered gifts and looked at Christmas light displays, and still had packing and 'laundry to wash out', and had 2 big trips to get ready for, and the house was a mess...were they just going to leave it like this while they were gone? None of this rings true. I would at least clean my kitchen and put the food away if I was going on a trip, kwim? Who wants to come home to corroded dishes or rotten food on the table? I know PR was said to be messy, but this isn't just messy, this is something else. IMO, she probably DID intend to clean up, but got busy with something more important.

agree...but in regards of cleaning dishes, her housekeeper supposedly should come next day, isn't? PR supposedly should leave her check for 2K, right?.....

 

[midwest mama]

agree...but in regards of cleaning dishes, her housekeeper supposedly should come next day, isn't? PR supposedly should leave her check for 2K, right?.....

Hoffman-Pugh was there on the 23rd to help prepare for the party that evening. Then, in PMPT she had this to say in her interview:
"I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn't. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27."

She also related, in the same interview:
"Patsy was warm and kind. Just a sweet person. But she had a hard time keeping up the laundry. She was doing lots of charity work and was involved with her children's schooling.

Then I went to work for her three days a week, $72 a day. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'd get there at 9:00 in the morning and be gone by 3:00. That's when my daughter Ariana gets out of school. Sometimes I worked for Patsy on Saturdays and holidays. She gave me a $300 bonus at the end of my first year. That was October 27, 1996."

Looks to me like Patsy pretty much relied on LHP to take care of most household chores, and was not worried about leaving things undone, cause LHP was due in while they were gone to take care of things.

 

[dodie20]

Hoffman-Pugh was there on the 23rd to help prepare for the party that evening. Then, in PMPT she had this to say in her interview:
"I was supposed to come back the next day, December 24, and clean up. I called Patsy and said I couldn't. I told her I had a fight with my sister and needed some money to pay the rent. I asked Patsy for a $2,000 loan. I told her I would pay it back $50 each week. She didn't hesitate. "Sure." Said she'd leave it for me on the kitchen counter for my next regular visit on December 27."

She also related, in the same interview:
"Patsy was warm and kind. Just a sweet person. But she had a hard time keeping up the laundry. She was doing lots of charity work and was involved with her children's schooling.

Then I went to work for her three days a week, $72 a day. Monday, Wednesday, Friday. I'd get there at 9:00 in the morning and be gone by 3:00. That's when my daughter Ariana gets out of school. Sometimes I worked for Patsy on Saturdays and holidays. She gave me a $300 bonus at the end of my first year. That was October 27, 1996."

Looks to me like Patsy pretty much relied on LHP to take care of most household chores, and was not worried about leaving things undone, cause LHP was due in while they were gone to take care of things.

It sounds like she earned every bit of that $72 a day, which imo, seems like exceptionally good pay for 1996. I don't fault PR for hiring out help because she was sick and needed all the help she could get...but I would still think she would have cleared the table and thrown the food into the trash. moo

 

[DeeDee249]

MM, the 4th picture on cynic post shows clearly that when person is standing BY THE ENTRANCE his shadow overlays the visiability of switchbox. In addition, like it was stated by ST, the switch was in unusual place, way from the standard code for placement of any electrical light switch. Looks to me that this switchbox was the temperarly placement and electrician never finished his work. So, I have no doubts that FW was saying the truth and he did everything he could in these circumstances.

In regards of the blanket, it's still bothering me the situation with JAR's duvet. It was stated that fibers from duvet was found on JB. Just recently, I brought this subject on with suggestion that JB could possibly be covered with/IN this duvet first... but DeeDee said that she never heard about these fibers. And who knows better all FACTS than her?

So, if duvet fibers were REALLY founded on JB then it opens much bigger can of warms. Who and when takes duvet from WC and put it in suitcase? I kind of know the answers...but, want to make sure that FACTS are true before making any speculations.

Something else, while talking about CANS. Depends on the cans size and their quantity in WC, they can very well be used to abstruct the view of the body. I simply don't believe that JR 'found' JB at 1:00pm. All FACTS point to him lying! Even without FW's prior search! It would be plenty enough to have FW testimony on HOW JR founds the body without getting inside and without turning the light.

jmo

I have certainly heard of FIBERS being found on JB BUT- there were NEVER fibers from JAR's duvet/comforter that were in the suitcase that were identified as having been found on the body

 

[cf1140]

To me John Ramsey is the strongest suspect.

We can glean from the evidence that one of the Ramseys is responsible for JBR's death.

A 9 year old killing a 6 year old and then the parents covering up in a such a weird way is highly unlikely.

I think the only reasonable theory is that John had been sexually abusing JBR and something went awry on Christmas night. My guess is she was difficult and he angrily shove/threw her against a bed/dresser corner or maybe a wall that night. That was the blow that killed her and then the garrot was made to deceive.

John was 36 when he married 23 yr old Patsy so this indicated he was attracted to much younger than his own age, though to get to age 6 is still a stretch, but the beauty pageants and the name "Jon-Benet" might help connect a few dots. Patsy didn't want to be a husbandless single mom and she didn't want others to know she allowed John to molest JBR so she helped cover it up...even writing the ransom note.

I don't think there's any good reason John would cover for Patsy if she had done it alone.

 

[DeeDee249]

From your reference, OM: These items belonged to defendants, but they have indicated that the items were not normally stored in the suitcase.

A couple of thoughts, with the duvet found inside the suitcase. It could have been put in there, then JB placed inside, and if it was found she wouldn't fit properly (though I have seen a sketch demonstration some where showing she might have), she was taken back out, but the duvet left there.

Or, she could have been wrapped in the duvet and carried from wherever she was felled to whatever the next step was in the crime, and then the duvet stuffed into the suitcase in an attempt to hide it.

Or it could have been in use wherever the molestation that occurred that night happened, or even during a former molestation, and was put into the suitcase to keep it out of sight. The lab analysis thought there was molestation approximately 72 hours prior to her death, as well as previous chronic molestation.

The duvet connects to the overall scenario in one way or the other, IMHO

JB was NEVER placed inside the suitcase and I am not going to explain AGAIN why. If the fibers WERE sourced to the duvet, it points all the more solidly to the molestation involving one or both of JR's sons.