Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Chrishope]

ITA she was put in the wine celler to keep her out of someone(s) sight, and waiting to be dumped elsewhere.

I suppose they could have, but did they know that?

Hard to say. One might suppose they'd try, given the necessity. Maybe not.

It bothers me too. I don't think for a second that the original plan was for the body to be found in the house with the RN, but something happened and the original plan had to be scrapped. My guess is they thought the risk of driving around Boulder with her in the Jeep was too big a risk. It also could have been because BR found her. That would 86 the plan in a big hurry. No way could they NOT call 911 in that case.

Something might have gone wrong forcing a change of plan, but I just don't see it as likely. I don't think driving her around in the Jeep is anywhere near as risky as having her found in the basement.

Your idea that BR found her is very interesting. Never occurred to me before. That would throw a wrench in the gears for sure.

I don't put a lot of stock in the handwriting analysis either, but when you have multiple experts all coming to the same conclusion it's a lot harder to ignore. Personally I always wondered why they didn't cut letters or words out of a magazine or newspaper, paste them on a sheet of paper, and burn the rest in the fireplace. I can't say why JR was ruled out. I'll admit he could have authored the note. His handwriting is pretty similar to PR's. The only thing that holds me back is that I don't think he would have made it so long and rambling. He's a business man so it would seem to me he'd have made it short, sweet, and to the point.

Lots to discuss here. We all have to rely on "experts" and I can't really blame the police too much, except that one "expert" was hired by JR. Since when do police make decisions based on experts opinion of those hired by a potential defendant?

The didn't cut letters out of a magazine because - 1. The murder wasn't preplanned and there wasn't time to do it that way, and 2. There were reasons for the note to be so long and rambling.

JR's handwriting is pretty similar to PRs, and I note that both of them print in manuscript style. I don't know if they habitually print or use cursive, but when they print, the print manuscript. (As an aside, I print in block caps, a hold-over habit from my military days. Easy for anybody to read. Makes my "writing" look like an elementary schools student's, but it's very easy to read.)

I think you are familiar with the DocG theory so I won't repeat all the reasons for the lengthy RN. It couldn't be short and sweet.

No one was complaining at 1pm but at 8 or 10pm? That smell would not just stay contained in the house either. Maybe DeeDee can chime in here but I don't believe a plastic bag would make any difference.

If the plan had been carried out - and IMO it would have been had either PR not called 911, or had PR/JR been in on it together - no one would be in the house but JR (or JR/PR). The police never would have been called, BR would have been sent to stay with friends.

I put a dead dog in a plastic bag once, in order to take the body to the Humane Society for disposal. It kept the smell down pretty good. We didn't tie off the bag, just folded it over. We were not worried about being charged with murder. I'd appreciate DeeDee's knowledge on this pint too. In my limited experience with the dog body, I'd think a plastic trash bag, completely closed up, would buy several hours time -as far as odor goes. I might be wrong.

 

[Chelly]

It's on this account:
https://www.facebook.com/burke.ramsey.5?fref=ts#!/burke.ramsey.5/about
Click "see all".

Sorry, OT......There is this one photo of Burke on his Facebook page.....he's wearing a white jacket and leaning against a girl with her mouth open. I can see JonBenet in his eyes. Click on Photos to see it.

 

[anne11]

I find it strange that he has Boulder as his hometown

 

[eileenhawkeye]

I find it strange that he has Boulder as his hometown

On his other social network profiles over the years, there was never any mention of Boulder. It was always just Charlevoix and Atlanta. So the Boulder as a hometown is very recent, which is one reason I also find it strange.

 

[Chelly]

On his other social network profiles over the years, there was never any mention of Boulder. It was always just Charlevoix and Atlanta. So the Boulder as a hometown is very recent, which is one reason I also find it strange.

Yup. Noticed that. I don't find it strange. Perhaps he is beginning to grow up and learn the meaning of responsibility and being true to yourself. Hope so.

 

[zapped]

Does anyone know how long it takes a decomposing corpse to begin smelling like a decomposing corpse?

The human body, just like a flower that is picked, starts decomposing immediately after it dies. Environmental conditions such as temperature can play a big roll but the smell of decomposition could be evident in as little as an hour.

Additionally, most humans have a reflex that makes them void their bowels and urinary tract when they die. Sometimes all it takes is fear of death, Ive seen people lose control of both functions while I was working at a haunted house, we actually considered it the highest form of flattery.

Its believed that this was originally a defense mechanism when running from prey. They were much less apt to eat you if you smelled like crap and/or urine.

THAT smell would be immediate and hard to get rid of as well.

Humans dont like to think of ourselves in that way but compared to other animals we are EXTREMELY pungent, this is why some hunters try to mask their odor with extracts from animal glands etc.

I wonder if the police asked about any unusual smells in the house. The answers to those question could prove to be very telling, especially if someone noticed it and was then told a lie to cover it up.

 

[otg]

On the smell of a dead body, I agree with zapped. There are many factors that would affect the rate at which a corpse would begin to stink, the biggest of which would be temperature, but also the sensitivity of the person smelling the air. In addition, as zapped mentioned, urine would also add to the stench -- and we know that she had voided her bladder. What we do know is that the only detective there when her body was brought up from the cellar said that it had an obvious stench of death that made it clear she had been dead for some time.

I've found wide variations of opinion among so-called experts on the amount of time -- anywhere from a matter of a couple of hours to days. Interesting site here where it says:

"A body may release gases within hours after death, even without visible signs of decay. In cities, bodies are often found when a 'neighbor complains of a foul odor', a history so common it’s occasionally shortened to 'NCFO'."
​

All this having been said, I still wonder if anyone could smell much of anything in that hellhole, what with all the urine and feces throughout the house from kids who couldn't (or wouldn't) control their body functions, and even used it to smear in places around the living space. Wouldn't anyone notice the smell from all that in the house? Or would they have simply become acclimated to it? My guess is that Patsy had lots of air fresheners throughout all the house to mask the smell from anyone coming in from outside. This is only pure speculation, but I'm guessing she had enough to make smelling anything difficult, and it could be that that is why no one noticed the smell of a dead child's corpse wafting up from the cellar.

 

[Chrishope]

On the smell of a dead body, I agree with zapped. There are many factors that would affect the rate at which a corpse would begin to stink, the biggest of which would be temperature, but also the sensitivity of the person smelling the air. In addition, as zapped mentioned, urine would also add to the stench -- and we know that she had voided her bladder. What we do know is that the only detective there when her body was brought up from the cellar said that it had an obvious stench of death that made it clear she had been dead for some time.

I've found wide variations of opinion among so-called experts on the amount of time -- anywhere from a matter of a couple of hours to days. Interesting site here where it says:

"A body may release gases within hours after death, even without visible signs of decay. In cities, bodies are often found when a 'neighbor complains of a foul odor', a history so common it’s occasionally shortened to 'NCFO'."
​

All this having been said, I still wonder if anyone could smell much of anything in that hellhole, what with all the urine and feces throughout the house from kids who couldn't (or wouldn't) control their body functions, and even used it to smear in places around the living space. Wouldn't anyone notice the smell from all that in the house? Or would they have simply become acclimated to it? My guess is that Patsy had lots of air fresheners throughout all the house to mask the smell from anyone coming in from outside. This is only pure speculation, but I'm guessing she had enough to make smelling anything difficult, and it could be that that is why no one noticed the smell of a dead child's corpse wafting up from the cellar.

We do know that the only detective in the house never mentioned noticing the stench of decay prior to the body being brought up from the basement. Officers were right outside the WC door that morning, so even failing to find the latch they might have been able to smell a dead body if in fact it were giving off odors. FW looked inside, and didn't mention a stench. Police and others who were not regular visitors would not have been acclimated, yet I don't recall that anyone complained of the smell of decay, urine, or feces.

It's hard to believe air fresheners would have masked the smell when people were just on the other side of the door from the body. I'd agree that air fresheners might have masked smells from some distance.

There were lots of people in the house that morning, yet no one complains of the odor of decay until the body is "found". I tend to believe the odor wasn't very strong at that point.

 

[Chelly]

Thank you Zapped, otg and Chrishope for responding to my question about the smell of a corpse. I've been wondering about that for some time.

The WC, where JB was "found" by JR, was a small airless room. I wondered why FW didn't notice the smell of death when he opened the door of the darkened WC, looked inside and saw nothing a few hours before JR "discovered" JB's body there.

The odor may have been why JR carried JB at arms' length up the stairs. However, I suppose if the basement was very cold it would have slowed decomposition.

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you Zapped, otg and Chrishope for responding to my question about the smell of a corpse. I've been wondering about that for some time.

The WC, where JB was "found" by JR, was a small airless room. I wondered why FW didn't notice the smell of death when he opened the door of the darkened WC, looked inside and saw nothing a few hours before JR "discovered" JB's body there.

The odor may have been why JR carried JB at arms' length up the stairs. However, I suppose if the basement was very cold it would have slowed decomposition.

Chelly,
An alternative view is that when FW looked in JonBenet was actually located somewhere else?

Odor is usually detected after a substantial passage of time. Coroner Meyer made no remarks regarding odor.

.

 

[Chelly]

Chelly,
An alternative view is that when FW looked in JonBenet was actually located somewhere else?

Odor is usually detected after a substantial passage of time. Coroner Meyer made no remarks regarding odor.

.

BBM I think that is highly likely.

 

[DeeDee249]

Chelly,
An alternative view is that when FW looked in JonBenet was actually located somewhere else?

Odor is usually detected after a substantial passage of time. Coroner Meyer made no remarks regarding odor.

.

Detective Arndt did make a note of an "odor of decay" about JB when she was brought up from the basement. Twelve hours had passed from her death- without refrigeration there will be the beginnings of decay- and mild odor will be present, though not nearly as strong as it will be a few hours later. If you have ever studied forensic entomology, you will learn that insects (who have an amazing sense of smell) that pray on dead bodies will begin to arrive within 15 minutes of death in areas where they can access the body easily. They are alerted by the odor of chemical changes in the body- in the blood and other fluids, as well as waste released by the suddenly flaccid sphincter and bladder.
It isn't unusual for the coroner to omit any notation about odor. Her body was refrigerated by about 9 pm on the 26th when she was delivered to the morgue and decomposition would have greatly slowed down. The decomp was in the very earliest stages-some autolysis in the internal organs and the typical changes in blood chemistry.

 

[UKGuy]

Detective Arndt did make a note of an "odor of decay" about JB when she was brought up from the basement. Twelve hours had passed from her death- without refrigeration there will be the beginnings of decay- and mild odor will be present, though not nearly as strong as it will be a few hours later. If you have ever studied forensic entomology, you will learn that insects (who have an amazing sense of smell) that pray on dead bodies will begin to arrive within 15 minutes of death in areas where they can access the body easily. They are alerted by the odor of chemical changes in the body- in the blood and other fluids, as well as waste released by the suddenly flaccid sphincter and bladder.
It isn't unusual for the coroner to omit any notation about odor. Her body was refrigerated by about 9 pm on the 26th when she was delivered to the morgue and decomposition would have greatly slowed down. The decomp was in the very earliest stages-some autolysis in the internal organs and the typical changes in blood chemistry.

DeeDee249,
I am familiar with insect entomology. I read about someone being arrested due to species of fly or maggot found on the decaying corpse not being native to the local area, i.e. body had been relocated.

If by early that morning there was a noticable odor and as you state Detective Arndt noted an odor, then how come Fleet White missed this including the body of JonBenet?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Detective Arndt did make a note of an "odor of decay" about JB when she was brought up from the basement.

But not before. Nor did anyone else in the house - and the house was full of people- say anything about it

Twelve hours had passed from her death- without refrigeration there will be the beginnings of decay- and mild odor will be present, though not nearly as strong as it will be a few hours later. If you have ever studied forensic entomology, you will learn that insects (who have an amazing sense of smell) that pray on dead bodies will begin to arrive within 15 minutes of death in areas where they can access the body easily. They are alerted by the odor of chemical changes in the body- in the blood and other fluids, as well as waste released by the suddenly flaccid sphincter and bladder.
It isn't unusual for the coroner to omit any notation about odor. Her body was refrigerated by about 9 pm on the 26th when she was delivered to the morgue and decomposition would have greatly slowed down. The decomp was in the very earliest stages-some autolysis in the internal organs and the typical changes in blood chemistry.

Good point.

 

[DeeDee249]

But not before. Nor did anyone else in the house - and the house was full of people- say anything about it




Good point.

I wouldn't have expected anyone to notice an odor of decay while she was still in the basement. It would take a few days for that. And I doubt you'd notice it after she was brought up unless you were in the room with the body at the point.

 

[Ausgirl]

The basement may have been cool enough to delay decomp - people have been mummified in dry, cool conditions - and I'd suppose there'd not be many bugs down there, either. I have questioned the issue of scent though, in the past -- when people die, they often vacate their bowels and bladder, and there had to be -some- odour or other detectable in that small space.

It really surprised me that the first person to open that door detected nothing..

As for who I think did it... at first I was a firm RDI supporter. But after all this time, I actually don't think Patsy or Burke had anything to do with her death or the 'staging' of her body, and I have some doubts about JR. Of all the Ramseys, JR is the one I've eyeballed the most.

What I have 'concluded' is that the killer knew the house and the family well (most likely directly, perhaps via stalking but that's a lesser theory) and had easy access to the home. Maybe a key..

I have wondered whether - if someone outside the immediate family was molesting JonBenet prior to her death, they may have gotten a fright of some kind - she might have given them a hint that she was going tell someone. I do not think there was ever any intention of leaving her alive. And the note was probably .. and I vaccillate on this - either an attempt to point away from the killer's familiarity (a very poor one - were they drunk? stupid? it's not at all an intelligent missive..) with the family, or a 'coded' means of causing the Ramseys as much anguish as possible without giving away the killer's identity or proximity to the family.

 

[Chrishope]

I wouldn't have expected anyone to notice an odor of decay while she was still in the basement. It would take a few days for that. And I doubt you'd notice it after she was brought up unless you were in the room with the body at the point.

OK, so I guess we can say that there was no urgency in finding the body at 1pm because the odor was going to be a giveaway very soon.

 

[Chrishope]

The basement may have been cool enough to delay decomp - people have been mummified in dry, cool conditions - and I'd suppose there'd not be many bugs down there, either.

According to JR it got very hot in the basement. I don't know if its' true or not. It probably was dry. I suppose not many bugs were there because it was winter time.

I have questioned the issue of scent though, in the past -- when people die, they often vacate their bowels and bladder, and there had to be -some- odour or other detectable in that small space.

Yet no one complained of odor. Not the stench of decaying flesh, not fecal smells, not the distinctive "aroma" of urine. So probably these things were cleaned up?

It really surprised me that the first person to open that door detected nothing..

Me too.

As for who I think did it... at first I was a firm RDI supporter. But after all this time, I actually don't think Patsy or Burke had anything to do with her death or the 'staging' of her body, and I have some doubts about JR. Of all the Ramseys, JR is the one I've eyeballed the most.

I agree that JR is by far the most likely suspect.

What I have 'concluded' is that the killer knew the house and the family well (most likely directly, perhaps via stalking but that's a lesser theory) and had easy access to the home. Maybe a key..

By itself, wo considering other "intruder" evidence, this is quite possible.

I have wondered whether - if someone outside the immediate family was molesting JonBenet prior to her death, they may have gotten a fright of some kind - she might have given them a hint that she was going tell someone. I do not think there was ever any intention of leaving her alive.

I think we've all wondered about this. A couple things to consider.

The molestation is consistent with digital penetration. So forensic proof will be difficult. It will be JB's claim against the suspects denial. It will prove very embarrassing, and many will suspect the "perp" even though he avoids conviction. But he will likely avoid conviction. To contemplate murder is a huge step, one that most molesters do not take.

A second thing is that if the "perp" is going to sneak into the house and kill JB, he cannot fail. If he's caught he's pretty much shown he's the guilty party (guilty of the molestation) so what does he do, kill the whole family?

And the note was probably .. and I vaccillate on this - either an attempt to point away from the killer's familiarity (a very poor one - were they drunk? stupid? it's not at all an intelligent missive..) with the family, or a 'coded' means of causing the Ramseys as much anguish as possible without giving away the killer's identity or proximity to the family.

The note tends to point towards familiarity imo. The author knows the amount of JR's bonus.

I have always stayed away from the "coded message" theories. IMO very unlikely, but jmo.

 

[otg]

We do know that the only detective in the house never mentioned noticing the stench of decay prior to the body being brought up from the basement. Officers were right outside the WC door that morning, so even failing to find the latch they might have been able to smell a dead body if in fact it were giving off odors. FW looked inside, and didn't mention a stench. Police and others who were not regular visitors would not have been acclimated, yet I don't recall that anyone complained of the smell of decay, urine, or feces.

Officer French and FW searched the basement (separately) shortly after 6:00 am. French didn't open the WC door, but FW did without turning on the light (leading to the constant speculation about where the body was at that time). Depending on exactly when she died, that would have been around six hours after death. JR disappeared and went to the basement around 10:00 am -- four hours later -- and we don't know what he did while there. At ten hours after death, I would imagine that if he was anywhere near the body he might have noticed the smell, especially considering that there was also stale urine on her clothes.

I've never stated as a fact that there was a noticeable smell of decay in the house. I have speculated though that it could have been something that JR was conscious of, having checked on the condition of her body, and was concerned about, that may have added to his sense of urgency in "finding" her body when Arndt suggested he and FW search the house. Call it guilty knowledge, or say it was something similar to the unreliable narrator's "over-acuteness of the senses" mentioned in Poe's The Tell-Tale Heart. But I feel JR was aware that the stench was there in the cellar, and that he didn't know when others in the hellhole might begin to notice it.

It's hard to believe air fresheners would have masked the smell when people were just on the other side of the door from the body. I'd agree that air fresheners might have masked smells from some distance.

My speculation on the air fresheners was just that: speculation. Knowing now about all the enurisis/encopresis issues going on, I suspect that PR may have placed them around the house to mask some of the odors that would be expected under the circumstances (not necessarily in the basement). If this was the case, as I speculated, it may have made it more difficult for anyone to notice other smells on the first floor.

There were lots of people in the house that morning, yet no one complains of the odor of decay until the body is "found". I tend to believe the odor wasn't very strong at that point.

And I tend to agree with you that the odor wasn't very strong at that time, and the subject doesn't really deserve as much attention as it has already garnered. To me, it's simply a factor that I suspect may have been something that only one person was aware of, and may have helped explain his actions that morning. IMO, this doesn't really need any more attention because we'll never know the answer, and it doesn't really help solve anything.

 

[DeeDee249]

OK, so I guess we can say that there was no urgency in finding the body at 1pm because the odor was going to be a giveaway very soon.

There may have been urgency as far as JR was concerned- I think when he realized the police were not going to leave them alone in the house he felt he had to "find" her. I do not think he had wanted anyone else to find her. But when he realized he & Patsy would have to leave (and leave her there in the basement) and not be allowed back in for probably several days- then it became urgent that he "find" her before it was obvious she was in the house. The odor would have been stronger by the following day, and within a few days, neighbors would have noticed it, even without being in the house. We can all second-guess his thoughts and actions, and of course no one but JR knows what he was thinking. To be honest, if he HAD left her there, cadaver dogs would have found her and it would have been less suspicious than JR finding her himself. It is ALWAYS more suspicious when a parent has reported a missing child and then "finds" the child's body in the home. The FBI made a comment that morning during their observation of the crime scene and family and said to police "You're going to be finding her body". They knew- they'd seen it before.
Had that happened- there would be a MUCH less "pristine" body to deal with- no open coffin, no pageant dress and no tiara. And had JR been successful in his attempt to fly to Atlanta that day, I think he might have been prepared to risk this.