Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[UKGuy]

There may have been urgency as far as JR was concerned- I think when he realized the police were not going to leave them alone in the house he felt he had to "find" her. I do not think he had wanted anyone else to find her. But when he realized he & Patsy would have to leave (and leave her there in the basement) and not be allowed back in for probably several days- then it became urgent that he "find" her before it was obvious she was in the house. The odor would have been stronger by the following day, and within a few days, neighbors would have noticed it, even without being in the house. We can all second-guess his thoughts and actions, and of course no one but JR knows what he was thinking. To be honest, if he HAD left her there, cadaver dogs would have found her and it would have been less suspicious than JR finding her himself. It is ALWAYS more suspicious when a parent has reported a missing child and then "finds" the child's body in the home. The FBI made a comment that morning during their observation of the crime scene and family and said to police "You're going to be finding her body". They knew- they'd seen it before.
Had that happened- there would be a MUCH less "pristine" body to deal with- no open coffin, no pageant dress and no tiara. And had JR been successful in his attempt to fly to Atlanta that day, I think he might have been prepared to risk this.

DeeDee249,
Statistically, in the majority of staged homicides its the killer who finds the body, or knows something that leads to the body.

I think whatever JR's gameplan, he always anticipated JonBenet being found, probably much earlier than she was.

Finding her was a calculated risk, one he took for some reason, and I doubt it has anything to do with JonBenet's postmortem appearance given they were willing to bludgeon and strangle her to death.

Possibly he took the risk so he could contaminate the forensic evidence, that seems a possible explanation?

.

 

[Ausgirl]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, CH

I agree that JR is by far the most likely suspect.

That isn't what I said, though. I think he's the suspect agreed upon by mass consensus here. And probably elsewhere. But I am truly not convinced it was JR.

I have always stayed away from the "coded message" theories. IMO very unlikely, but jmo.

Oh I don't mean like - Zodiac coded, that sort of rubbish. I meant in the sense of taking very direct and personal digs at JR, so he'd know he was being punished - but in a way that does not lay immediate blame on any one person for the note.

eta _ not saying that's a firm theory for me, just a possibility.

 

[Ausgirl]

To contemplate murder is a huge step, one that most molesters do not take.

A second thing is that if the "perp" is going to sneak into the house and kill JB, he cannot fail. If he's caught he's pretty much shown he's the guilty party (guilty of the molestation) so what does he do, kill the whole family? .

Sorry, forgot to address this..

a/ Wrong. Molesters frequently kill the children they molest. Go click on the "Crimes Against Children" news forum, plenty of dead molested kids there.

And they usually kill the children they are molesting out of fear of being ID'd. Though also frequently as part of the crime itself.

As for "cannot fail" - well, he didn't fail, did he? The whole thing was pretty darned brash. But then, a person capable of molesting and murdering a 6-year old isn't exactly the most balanced individual, iykwim.

Whole families -have- been killed by child molesters. People do the craziest stuff. I see no reason to not keep suspecting that the killer was somebody directly intimate with the family, OR even a highly dedicated and obsessive stalker.

And on a point I wanted to raise in another thread-- both those potential sort of perps would have every reason to want to stage the crime, just as much a family member might.

 

[txsvicki]

I'm probably the only poster ever on the forum that doesn't think JR did any of it except to not fall for that crazy ransom note and to possibly have shut up and lawyered up once he figured out that it really was an inside job that morning. That's why I think his late wife knew what happened and wrote the note in desperation.

 

[ScarlettScarpetta]

Sorry, forgot to address this..

a/ Wrong. Molesters frequently kill the children they molest. Go click on the "Crimes Against Children" news forum, plenty of dead molested kids there.

And they usually kill the children they are molesting out of fear of being ID'd. Though also frequently as part of the crime itself.

As for "cannot fail" - well, he didn't fail, did he? The whole thing was pretty darned brash. But then, a person capable of molesting and murdering a 6-year old isn't exactly the most balanced individual, iykwim.

Whole families -have- been killed by child molesters. People do the craziest stuff. I see no reason to not keep suspecting that the killer was somebody directly intimate with the family, OR even a highly dedicated and obsessive stalker.

And on a point I wanted to raise in another thread-- both those potential sort of perps would have every reason to want to stage the crime, just as much a family member might.

No I really don't believe that. We know that many children are chronically molested and never murdered. Most children I would say.

I would say that children abducted for that reason are indeed usually murdered. But children who are molested by family members live and suffer many years through it until they grow to old to be attractive to that molester or old enough to stop it.

 

[Ausgirl]

No I really don't believe that. We know that many children are chronically molested and never murdered. Most children I would say.

Scarlett, sorry - to put this point in context, ChrisHope was saying that if JonBenet was being molested, it's not very likely the molester killed her out of fear of discovery, as it wasn't likely he'd be accused even if JonBenet said something. And then said that not many molesters kill children.

To clarify: what I was saying was that many molesters do indeed kill their victims. Not the majority by far, of course, but the number who do kill is hardly insignificant, as is evidence plainly by the sheer volume of sexually assaulted and murdered children featured in threads on this very forum. Sadly, it is not an uncommon phenomenon at all.

So yes, "most" molesters do not kill. But enough of them do, so that the notion JonBenet Ramsey was murdered by a person who was molesting her isn't out of the question. Her being a murdered, molested child and all. But was she killed out of the molester's fear of discovery?

I think it's possible. Whether or not that person might've been believed by 100% of people, or even the police -- I think a person known to JonBenet is every bit as likely to kill her as a stranger, perhaps moreso, on threat of being "told on" and revealed as a pedophile.

Hope that clears things up.

I would say that children abducted for that reason are indeed usually murdered. But children who are molested by family members live and suffer many years through it until they grow to old to be attractive to that molester or old enough to stop it.

I agree.

And I do see your point that 'chronic' molestation cases are less likely to end in murder. But there's no hard proof that the two have anything in common, either. Ie, JonBenet may have been molested prior to the attack that killed her by a completely different person. We just cannot know, and I do not like to assume the two are linked with absolute conviction until I see something more conclusive than a lot of opinions taken as fact.

What I do know is JonBenet had evidence of recent molestation at her time of death. I feel safe in that case of assuming her killer also molested her at the time.

But the link between whatever ongoing sexual abuse she may have suffered and that she experienced the night she died is not strong enough, IMO, to say her killer was also the chronic abuser of Jonbenet.

 

[UKGuy]

Scarlett, sorry - to put this point in context, ChrisHope was saying that if JonBenet was being molested, it's not very likely the molester killed her out of fear of discovery, as it wasn't likely he'd be accused even if JonBenet said something. And then said that not many molesters kill children.

To clarify: what I was saying was that many molesters do indeed kill their victims. Not the majority by far, of course, but the number who do kill is hardly insignificant, as is evidence plainly by the sheer volume of sexually assaulted and murdered children featured in threads on this very forum. Sadly, it is not an uncommon phenomenon at all.

So yes, "most" molesters do not kill. But enough of them do, so that the notion JonBenet Ramsey was murdered by a person who was molesting her isn't out of the question. Her being a murdered, molested child and all. But was she killed out of the molester's fear of discovery?

I think it's possible. Whether or not that person might've been believed by 100% of people, or even the police -- I think a person known to JonBenet is every bit as likely to kill her as a stranger, perhaps moreso, on threat of being "told on" and revealed as a pedophile.

Hope that clears things up.



I agree.

And I do see your point that 'chronic' molestation cases are less likely to end in murder. But there's no hard proof that the two have anything in common, either. Ie, JonBenet may have been molested prior to the attack that killed her by a completely different person. We just cannot know, and I do not like to assume the two are linked with absolute conviction until I see something more conclusive than a lot of opinions taken as fact.

What I do know is JonBenet had evidence of recent molestation at her time of death. I feel safe in that case of assuming her killer also molested her at the time.

But the link between whatever ongoing sexual abuse she may have suffered and that she experienced the night she died is not strong enough, IMO, to say her killer was also the chronic abuser of Jonbenet.

Ausgirl,
I think you make an excellent point here. It could even be that the final staging is executed by her chronic abuser in an attempt to deflect blame, because the abuser knows where the evidence points?

.

 

[questfortrue]

Thanks for your thoughtful reply, CH


That isn't what I said, though. I think he's the suspect agreed upon by mass consensus here. And probably elsewhere. But I am truly not convinced it was JR.

BBM Small clarification in POV of what the mass opinions are. The poll of this thread considers BR to be the most likely originator of the head strike, with the caveat of JR/PR with cover-up and strangling (149 votes); PR comes in 2nd (127 votes). JR here is a distant 4th, behind an intruder (actually tied with the same number of folks who claim they have no idea). Since this thread was begun in July 2012, it reflects what people have considered over the past year.

I’ve only seen one internet poll by “general public” on the internet, though there might be some other polls I haven't come across. In that poll, the voters thought RDI was the most plausible, only a few thought IDI. A contrast in POV: Many of the public thinking RDI; media essentially broadcasting IDI.

 

[renah]

I think Ive just possibly! had my first original thought in this case, lol:

Could JR have broken the basement window the night of the murder in order to bring in the chill winter air to slow down the body's decomp rate?

Maybe this was done early on when he was supposedly checking the mail. Or maybe after PR jumped the gun and called 911, and he realized the opportunity to disappear the body would be delayed, seeing as how Boulder's finest would soon be there.

Slower rate of decomp = longer time before the body began to smell...

This would further support the assertion that PR at that point was still largely unaware of what had occured... I think. Or hmm maybe not...

Well regardless: If this idea really hasnt been brought up before, even if it doesnt add much to advance one theory or another, Im still childishly proud that my non-chess playing, critically thinking-challenged brain actually had this thought..

By the way: JR's israeli shirt fibers and PR's jacket fibers were ID'ed on JonBenet. But do we know if those garments were examined for, say, JB's blood or urine OR for semen or other bodily fluids that shouldnt normally be on them?

 

[renah]

Above I mispoke when I said: ... broke the window on the NIGHT of the murder. As said further into the post, breaking it that morning would be the logical time.

 

[UKGuy]

I think Ive just possibly! had my first original thought in this case, lol:

Could JR have broken the basement window the night of the murder in order to bring in the chill winter air to slow down the body's decomp rate?

Maybe this was done early on when he was supposedly checking the mail. Or maybe after PR jumped the gun and called 911, and he realized the opportunity to disappear the body would be delayed, seeing as how Boulder's finest would soon be there.

Slower rate of decomp = longer time before the body began to smell...

This would further support the assertion that PR at that point was still largely unaware of what had occured... I think. Or hmm maybe not...

Well regardless: If this idea really hasnt been brought up before, even if it doesnt add much to advance one theory or another, Im still childishly proud that my non-chess playing, critically thinking-challenged brain actually had this thought..

By the way: JR's israeli shirt fibers and PR's jacket fibers were ID'ed on JonBenet. But do we know if those garments were examined for, say, JB's blood or urine OR for semen or other bodily fluids that shouldnt normally be on them?

renah,
What matters is your idea not how you arrive at it. Some of the world's best ideas are to be found in dreams, particularly the non-chess playing type: Paul McCartney heard the song Yesterday in a dream.
wikipedia

According to biographers of McCartney and the Beatles, McCartney composed the entire melody in a dream one night in his room at the Wimpole Street home of his then girlfriend Jane Asher and her family. Upon waking, he hurried to a piano and played the tune to avoid forgetting it.

It does seem JR broke the window that morning, possibly to let cool air in, he later changed things around, I suspect JonBenet was somewhere else in the basement and was moved to the wine-cellar later. JR was missing for a long period that morning, so he had the opportunity to rearrange the basement if he wished.

All three R's were in on the staging. Possibly not all three R's were aware of all the staging that took place, since PR not knowing about the size-12's is pretty strange, especially her answers.

JonBenet's clothes will have been tested for all the usual stuff including blood and semen etc. Her Barbie Nightgown was tested for both blood and dna.


.

 

[otg]

The window was not broken on the day/night/morning of JonBenet's death. :banghead: If there is any one takeaway that can be certain from what he (Kolar) wrote and the video he posted, it should be that it was impossible for it to have been broken at that time.

 

[DeeDee249]

Stephenie Meyer, author of the Twilight Series books, got the idea for the first book in a dream. She is now a gazillionaire. Why don't I have dreams like that?

 

[bettybaby00]

Stephenie Meyer, author of the Twilight Series books, got the idea for the first book in a dream. She is now a gazillionaire. Why don't I have dreams like that?

Ha, ha :lol: I wanna too!

 

[UKGuy]

Stephenie Meyer, author of the Twilight Series books, got the idea for the first book in a dream. She is now a gazillionaire. Why don't I have dreams like that?

DeeDee249,
You probably do, its just possible like me, once you awaken you forget, unless its a particularly vivid dream?

Some people have the natural ability to author their own dreams. I heard a woman recount how from childhood she could dream almost anything she wanted and knew she was asleep but dreaming, she thought this was normal until she became older and realized most people forget their dreams.

Curiously it was my father who suggested the importance of dreams to me. Whenever I offered a solution to a problem he would say "sounds good, but let me sleep on it."

.

 

[Chelly]

Sure wish I could revote. My opinion changed in the past year, a result of rereading LS, ST, Kolar, studying evidence, digesting WS common sense theories and working to a logical conclusion.

IMO too of us many base our conclusions on feelings and beliefs at the sake of evidence, logic and reason.

 

[Chrishope]

Sorry, forgot to address this..

a/ Wrong. Molesters frequently kill the children they molest. Go click on the "Crimes Against Children" news forum, plenty of dead molested kids there.

What I said is "most" molesters do not kill. Most, as in a majority. IOWs most molesters figure a way to deal with the danger short of murder. Of course some do murder, and that could be what we are dealing with here.

And they usually kill the children they are molesting out of fear of being ID'd. Though also frequently as part of the crime itself.

But we only have evidence of digital penetration, so how is this going to be traced to a particular culprit? There would be JB's word against the word of the perp. Might be embarrassing, even damaging, but very difficult to prove in court. Why risk a murder charge ?

As for "cannot fail" - well, he didn't fail, did he?

No, he didn't fail, but he couldn't have known that going in. Perhaps I should have said he couldn't be caught failing. If it was an intruder and he went into the house to kill JB, he'd have one hell of a time explaining his presence if he should have been caught by JR or PR (or even BR)

The whole thing was pretty darned brash. But then, a person capable of molesting and murdering a 6-year old isn't exactly the most balanced individual, iykwim.

I think we might be surprised at how normal he seemed.

Whole families -have- been killed by child molesters. People do the craziest stuff. I see no reason to not keep suspecting that the killer was somebody directly intimate with the family, OR even a highly dedicated and obsessive stalker.

The reason is pretty straight forward, the DNA doesn't "exonerate" the Rs, and it's unlikely a RN would be left by a molester/killer/intruder. His purpose would be to kill JB to keep her from telling on him. Once that's accomplished, the RN serves no purpose.

The intruder doesn't need to cover up the murder, he just needs to leave no trace of it that can link back to him.

The RN is there to cover up a murder.

And on a point I wanted to raise in another thread-- both those potential sort of perps would have every reason to want to stage the crime, just as much a family member might.

Well, I'd be interested in hearing why. I don't see the need for such a killer to stage. He want's JB silenced. Why does it need to be some weird amalgam of kidnapping and sex murder?

 

[Chrishope]

The window was not broken on the day/night/morning of JonBenet's death. :banghead: If there is any one takeaway that can be certain from what he (Kolar) wrote and the video he posted, it should be that it was impossible for it to have been broken at that time.

Why? What does he say that makes it impossible?

 

[otg]

Why? What does he say that makes it impossible?

I don’t have the book handy, but as I recall, he goes into more detail about the spider webs than Steve Thomas did. They both pointed out that the type of spider that spun the webs is dormant in the winter and would not have been making webs across the open areas of the broken window at that time (according to experts that were consulted). Beyond that, if it had been broken from the inside there would either be broken pieces of glass on top of the debris in the window well or no debris at all from the cleanup. If it was broken from the outside, there would have been more broken glass on the inside of the room (or signs of a recent cleanup).

And if there is any doubt just how it looked, Kolar included a portion of the actual police video taken that evening.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html#

Thanks to cynic for posting the video, just in case the TDB article gets lost or deleted:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpJ2uA1V2y4"]DBKPV - YouTube[/ame]

 

[bettybaby00]

I don’t have the book handy, but as I recall, he goes into more detail about the spider webs than Steve Thomas did. They both pointed out that the type of spider that spun the webs is dormant in the winter and would not have been making webs across the open areas of the broken window at that time (according to experts that were consulted). Beyond that, if it had been broken from the inside there would either be broken pieces of glass on top of the debris in the window well or no debris at all from the cleanup. If it was broken from the outside, there would have been more broken glass on the inside of the room (or signs of a recent cleanup).

And if there is any doubt just how it looked, Kolar included a portion of the actual police video taken that evening.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/07/18/new-clues-in-jonbenet-ramsey-murder.html#

Thanks to cynic for posting the video, just in case the TDB article gets lost or deleted:

DBKPV - YouTube

The vid is interesting b/c Smit goes through as proof of how someone could use it as a point of entry. He evidently wasn't a big guy, and yet his hips fill the entire window opening, which actually illustrates how all of the surrounding dust, debris and spider webs would be impacted.

Also, kolar analyzes the "evolution" of JRs accounts of that morning. It makes for interesting reading.