Known rope in the house

[Maxi]

I'm not sure the slant is strong enough to indicate a hanging. Also, if JBR were hung in the traditional, there should be a knot mark where the knot made contact with her skin.

OTOH, I've mentioned before that the autopsy of Sharon Tate describes a mark that sounds similar to the large, triangular abrasion on JBR's throat. The medical examiner in the Tate case concluded the mark was from a partial hanging.

 

[Maxi]

In case anyone hasn't seen this article, here's a url with good info on patterns in ligature strangulation.

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

 

[BlueCrab]

In case anyone hasn't seen this article, here's a url with good info on patterns in ligature strangulation.

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

Thanks Maxi. That's an excellent article.

I wish all WS posters would read that article. Perhaps some of the wrong terms used to describe the ligature and related furrow injuries could be corrected.

For instance, the cord wrapped around JonBenet's neck is NOT a garrote. It's a ligature. JonBenet was not garroted. Garrotes look nothing like the contraption found on JonBenet.

Just my opinion.

 

[Nehemiah]

Worth reading in light of Kolar's book.

 

[crimedoesnotpay]

Is it possible the string ligature was a bit loose like the arm one - (I can't see the scratch marks but maybe they are the fingernails of someone else attempting to loosen it more or pull it off from behind Jonbenet's head, but this person's attempt failed or they were interrupted - possibly Burke trying to assist his sister - and then the killer has performed the lower strangulation and in the process this has caused the neck to swell around the string ligature?

 

[otg]

Worth reading in light of Kolar's book.

Nehemiah, you were asking about Blue Crab not long ago? I hadn't read much from him since apparently he disappeared before I started posting here at WS. I've read this entire thread now, and I can see why you would be wondering what happened to him, considering what we are learning lately. So much of what he was speculating I have been saying for a long time as well. I didn't realize there was anyone who saw so many things the same way I see them. He (and you?) even saw the evidence of a "partial hanging" (which no one else wants to believe me on). I'm going to have to read more of his posts.
.

 

[Bonnette]

I didn't realize there was anyone who saw so many things the same way I see them. He (and you?) even saw the evidence of a "partial hanging" (which no one else wants to believe me on).

I am another who agrees with you about this.

 

[BOESP]

I will admit I have considered this idea too. I wondered if maybe Patsy came up with the idea for a Christmas photo with JonBenet posing as an angel and somehow a contraption was made to make it look like she was suspended above or beside the tree and something went wrong with the set-up. Now this is total speculation on my part that occurred to me many years ago and I have no evidence for the idea. I try not to speculate but sometimes I do anyway.

 

[OpenMind4U]

...while speeking about the robes and JBR position, here is a small 'refresher' from the 'Police Files', interview w/JR page 306:

JR:And I tried to untie her arms. They were tied up behind her head...
LS: Where they tied tight?
JR: Yeah, very tight...her skin was swolen around. And they were not easy to get off'

Well, based on AR, 'Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord'...so, it wasn't tide 'very tight'...

However, based on the autopsy picture of her hands, her HANDS were seems to be swolen, which IMO is indication of the poor blood circulation before her death.

And for years, we're wondering why her hands was in 'up' position? What is the purpose and which kind of role in 'pose' her hands play?...With assumption that there was another 'shadow' strangulation (see the white line bellow the actual ligature), what was the purpose of it in correspondance with her hands?...Plus, we need to keep in perspective that the head blow happens from the back (assuming that 'pose' was done first and head blow second)....

Interesting discussion.....

 

[qtc]

I have to admit I am confused concerning the hanging ideas.

If she was hanged, wouldnt the rope marks be more underneath her chin are and the rope going behind her ears. I dont see how one could be suspended and have marks that low.
And how does hanging have anything to do with how her hands with raised about her head?

 

[dodie20]

...while speeking about the robes and JBR position, here is a small 'refresher' from the 'Police Files', interview w/JR page 306:



Well, based on AR, 'Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord'...so, it wasn't tide 'very tight'...

However, based on the autopsy picture of her hands, her HANDS were seems to be swolen, which IMO is indication of the poor blood circulation before her death.

And for years, we're wondering why her hands was in 'up' position? What is the purpose and which kind of role in 'pose' her hands play?...With assumption that there was another 'shadow' strangulation (see the white line bellow the actual ligature), what was the purpose of it in correspondance with her hands?...Plus, we need to keep in perspective that the head blow happens from the back (assuming that 'pose' was done first and head blow second)....

Interesting discussion.....

I noticed her hands were swolen too.

 

[UKGuy]

...while speeking about the robes and JBR position, here is a small 'refresher' from the 'Police Files', interview w/JR page 306:



Well, based on AR, 'Tied loosely around the right wrist, overlying the sleeve of the shirt is a white cord'...so, it wasn't tide 'very tight'...

However, based on the autopsy picture of her hands, her HANDS were seems to be swolen, which IMO is indication of the poor blood circulation before her death.

And for years, we're wondering why her hands was in 'up' position? What is the purpose and which kind of role in 'pose' her hands play?...With assumption that there was another 'shadow' strangulation (see the white line bellow the actual ligature), what was the purpose of it in correspondance with her hands?...Plus, we need to keep in perspective that the head blow happens from the back (assuming that 'pose' was done first and head blow second)....

Interesting discussion.....

OpenMind4U,
Good points you make about her hands, and their elevation.

You might think that the R's, as per Undoing Behaviour, would have adjusted her elevated hands?

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that her hands might be elevated due to a spasm, caused by some violent trauma. It has some fancy name like Cadaveric Spasm.

What matters is whether you think that JonBenet was initially sexually assaulted, and what relationship this has to what later transpired?

Personally I have great difficulty in parsing a sexual assault and head injury and a ligature strangulation; in that order, not because they could not occur, but simply because there was no need for them to occur.

That is, if you are a psychopathic pedophile then the sequence of inuries might make sense in making JonBenet compliant. If you are a relative, this kind of violence is not required.

.

 

[Whaleshark]

...If you are a relative, this kind of violence is not required..

Ok, but when you make statements like that above, it throws me off a bit.. you tend to often go to 'what was only needed', like the extra handle on the ligature, etc.. and I feel compelled to gently remind you, that just because something is not needed in a murder, does not mean it was not chosen. A murderer is not always working off the simplest, most succinct tactic to get the job done. I wish you would keep that in mind sometimes.

It wasn't required of Zahra Baker's stepmom to cut her body into pieces when she murdered her, but she did it.

It wasn't required of Julie Scheneker to shoot her children in the face when she murdered them, but she did.

It wasn't required of Josh Powell to attack his sons with a hatchet, just 7 and 5 years old, then burn the house down with himself and the boys in it, killing all three for sure.

Just because overkill is not required, especially by a relative, doesn't mean it is not done.

Just saying.

 

[Bonnette]

If she was hanged, wouldnt the rope marks be more underneath her chin are and the rope going behind her ears. I dont see how one could be suspended and have marks that low.

For me, the key is in the words "partial hanging" (as referenced in otg's post, above). I think the garrote might well have been hooked to a low anchor (at about the level of a doorknob), which would produce throat markings as seen at autopsy.

 

[UKGuy]

Ok, but when you make statements like that above, it throws me off a bit.. you tend to often go to 'what was only needed', like the extra handle on the ligature, etc.. and I feel compelled to gently remind you, that just because something is not needed in a murder, does not mean it was not chosen. A murderer is not always working off the simplest, most succinct tactic to get the job done. I wish you would keep that in mind sometimes.

It wasn't required of Zahra Baker's stepmom to cut her body into pieces when she murdered her, but she did it.

It wasn't required of Julie Scheneker to shoot her children in the face when she murdered them, but she did.

It wasn't required of Josh Powell to attack his sons with a hatchet, just 7 and 5 years old, then burn the house down with himself and the boys in it, killing all three for sure.

Just because overkill is not required, especially by a relative, doesn't mean it is not done.

Just saying.

Whaleshark,
Sure, point taken, but its not the simply the excess of vilolence but its sequence.

Normally violence precedes a sexual assault. Consider Ted Bundy and his fake plastercast, hope it was him.

you tend to often go to 'what was only needed',

Sure, and I think you have corrected me on this subject before. Quoting a profiler?

I am quite satisfied that no Ramsey needs to bludgeon and asphyxiate JonBenet in the course of a sexual assault, which was in all likelyhood a recurring event!

.

 

[dodie20]

I have to admit I am confused concerning the hanging ideas.

If she was hanged, wouldnt the rope marks be more underneath her chin are and the rope going behind her ears. I dont see how one could be suspended and have marks that low.
And how does hanging have anything to do with how her hands with raised about her head?

I was thinking she could have been hung from her wrists somehow, not her neck. moo

 

[txsvicki]

Is the cord wide and thick enough to have stayed low on the neck if she were hung from something low first ? I can't really see it, but could see thumb or fi ger abrasions from someone trying to drag an unconscious jonbenet.

 

[UKGuy]

I was thinking she could have been hung from her wrists somehow, not her neck. moo

dodie20,
If someone is hung, then Tardieu Spots can occur. This is due to hyrdrostatic rupture of the vessels from blood pooling in the arms, legs, hands etc. Not to be confused with petechiae.



.

 

[Whaleshark]

Sure, and I think you have corrected me on this subject before.

Yes, but you still say the same things - and it is irrelevant whether it 'is needed' or not, really. I mean, it was done anyway, right- the murder is the way it is.

Quoting a profiler?

Are you asking me if I am quoting a profiler? No, I'm just making a statement that seems logical in itself. A lot of murders have elements of unnecessary overkill and other heinous, torturous acts put upon the victim. Some murderers cut off body parts and keep them as trophies for themselves... I mean, you know we could go on and on....

So it seems that, to ask whether it was needed or not, especially if it was a relative, does not determine the likelihood of whether it was necessarily only staging, or anything else. She is injured internally. She is injured externally. She is fatally injured on the skull/brain. She is strangled. These are all evidentiary facts. Whether she only need to be strangled or bludgeoned to be killed, doesn't mean that only one method is used for the killing, and that the other, or a piece of it (ie, the stick), was necessarily, only staging, or what have you.

I am quite satisfied that no Ramsey needs to bludgeon and asphyxiate JonBenet in the course of a sexual assault, which was in all likelyhood a recurring event!

Me too, and probably so.... but then that's why I get confused sometimes when you say 'that wasn't needed'....so, ok..? Yeah, and no murder is 'needed'. So what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything, is all I'm saying.

 

[UKGuy]

Yes, but you still say the same things - and it is irrelevant whether it 'is needed' or not, really. I mean, it was done anyway, right- the murder is the way it is.



Are you asking me if I am quoting a profiler? No, I'm just making a statement that seems logical in itself. A lot of murders have elements of unnecessary overkill and other heinous, torturous acts put upon the victim. Some murderers cut off body parts and keep them as trophies for themselves... I mean, you know we could go on and on....

So it seems that, to ask whether it was needed or not, especially if it was a relative, does not determine the likelihood of whether it was necessarily only staging, or anything else. She is injured internally. She is injured externally. She is fatally injured on the skull/brain. She is strangled. These are all evidentiary facts. Whether she only need to be strangled or bludgeoned to be killed, doesn't mean that only one method is used for the killing, and that the other, or a piece of it (ie, the stick), was necessarily, only staging, or what have you.



Me too, and probably so.... but then that's why I get confused sometimes when you say 'that wasn't needed'....so, ok..? Yeah, and no murder is 'needed'. So what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything, is all I'm saying.

Whaleshark,

but then that's why I get confused sometimes when you say 'that wasn't needed'....so, ok..? Yeah, and no murder is 'needed'. So what does that mean? It doesn't mean anything, is all I'm saying.

So why attribute any inconsistency to me?


The murder was needed since someone wanted JonBenet unable to talk. But the head bash and ligature strangulation were not needed to accomplish whatever was the purpose of assaulting JonBenet.


Consider JonBenet had been sexually assaulted, in a similar manner, as on the night of her death, many times before.

On prior occassions patently neither head trauma or asphyxiation were required to effect the assault?

.