Known rope in the house

[Bonnette]

Is the cord wide and thick enough to have stayed low on the neck if she were hung from something low first ?

A thinner cord (like the one used in the garrote) would have bitten deeper into the soft tissues of the neck, and at a lower angle, than a thicker cord; as long as JB was still alive and thus capable of swelling above the ligature, this would have prevented the cord from riding up higher on her neck.

In another thread, azwriter opined - and I agree - that what we refer to in these threads as a "garrote" was probably not originally fashioned for the purpose of strangulation; it might have been created as a leash or pulling device, used on prior occasions to lead JB around (evidenced by strands of her hair entwined in the knot, which could have happened at any time prior to her death). On the night of 12/25-26, the device could have been hooked to a low-lying anchor, with fatal results. MOO.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OpenMind4U,
Good points you make about her hands, and their elevation.

You might think that the R's, as per Undoing Behaviour, would have adjusted her elevated hands?

I have seen it suggested elsewhere that her hands might be elevated due to a spasm, caused by some violent trauma. It has some fancy name like Cadaveric Spasm.

What matters is whether you think that JonBenet was initially sexually assaulted, and what relationship this has to what later transpired?

Personally I have great difficulty in parsing a sexual assault and head injury and a ligature strangulation; in that order, not because they could not occur, but simply because there was no need for them to occur.

That is, if you are a psychopathic pedophile then the sequence of inuries might make sense in making JonBenet compliant. If you are a relative, this kind of violence is not required..

Absolutely 100% agree!!!!:rocker:....

 

[Whaleshark]

Whaleshark, So why attribute any inconsistency to me?.

Not trying to be rude, trying to understand your point. Your point is what I am attributing to you.

The murder was needed since someone wanted JonBenet unable to talk. But the head bash and ligature strangulation were not needed to accomplish whatever was the purpose of assaulting JonBenet.

That is, if you are a psychopathic pedophile then the sequence of inuries might make sense in making JonBenet compliant. If you are a relative, this kind of violence is not required.

Ok, so your point is that if it is an unknown person (ie, some random psychopathic pedophile: IDI), this kind of violence may be required, but if it is a relative she knows and 'trusts', it may not be required....I think I am seeing your point on that...

But then, are you not making the case for IDI?

Or are you just saying that something had to change in this instance for it to escalate to that level, if it was a relative? (Fighting, force, BDI... etc?)

If you're RDI, yet speculating what may not have been needed depending on who did it, then we need to understand what is being speculated and why, so it's not confusing what case you are making; otherwise, it sounds like you are saying it had to be a unknown psychopathic pedophile based on the type of overkill that was used, an IDI. (And my point was that a relative or any stranger can overkill if that's what they choose to do, or are psychopathic, or whatever, themselves...).

I'll take the blame for being confused -- just asking for understanding, and explaining what it seemed like you meant as far as 'what is needed'...

 

[DeeDee249]

Kolar's book states that the consensus of all the forensic examiners who reviewed the autopsy and the body was that there was NO hanging or suspension of her body at any time. The circumferential furrow left by the cord confirms this. Her hands no not look swollen to me- nor did the coroner note that they were. Children that age have hands which have a chubbier look than the more defined hands of an adolescent or adult. They had a floppier look on the autopsy table because by that time, rigor mortis was fading in her smaller joints, like her fingers and wrists.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Kolar's book states that the consensus of all the forensic examiners who reviewed the autopsy and the body was that there was NO hanging or suspension of her body at any time. The circumferential furrow left by the cord confirms this. Her hands no not look swollen to me- nor did the coroner note that they were. Children that age have hands which have a chubbier look than the more defined hands of an adolescent or adult. They had a floppier look on the autopsy table because by that time, rigor mortis was fading in her smaller joints, like her fingers and wrists.

DD, I think somehow this discussion went to wrong direction...On prior page, otg, myself and others were talking about white line bellow actual ligature on JBR neck...and they discussed the prior posts made by BlueCrap in 2004, I believe. Discussion was about the position in which JBR's body COULD POSSIBLE be 'pose' (for example, sitting...). NOBODY has suggested about any HANGING or SUSPENSION. We all understand that if person is suspended/hanged - the 'V" pattern would be found on his/her neck. This is the article based on which the discussion started:

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

Now, in regards of swolen or not swolen hands. You're correct, AR doesn't mention anything about hands. Does it mean that they were NOT swolen?...I don't know. I didn't see any 'unremarkable' statement in AR about JBR hands. I simply stated my observation based on autopsy photo and JR comments during his interview. JMO....And very possible you're correct....Are there any possibility that I could be correct?!

 

[DeeDee249]

DD, I think somehow this discussion went to wrong direction...On prior page, otg, myself and others were talking about white line bellow actual ligature on JBR neck...and they discussed the prior posts made by BlueCrap in 2004, I believe. Discussion was about the position in which JBR's body COULD POSSIBLE be 'pose' (for example, sitting...). NOBODY has suggested about any HANGING or SUSPENSION. We all understand that if person is suspended/hanged - the 'V" pattern would be found on his/her neck. This is the article based on which the discussion started:

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/ligature.html

Now, in regards of swolen or not swolen hands. You're correct, AR doesn't mention anything about hands. Does it mean that they were NOT swolen?...I don't know. I didn't see any 'unremarkable' statement in AR about JBR hands. I simply stated my observation based on autopsy photo and JR comments during his interview. JMO....And very possible you're correct....Are there any possibility that I could be correct?!

Sorry- I didn't pick up on the part about BlueCrab's old post.
I think if her hands were swollen the coroner would have mentioned it. Of course, it is possible he failed to do so, but as there were no ligature marks on her wrists, I can't think of why they would be swollen (as far as a PRE-death cause).
The white ligature mark had to have been made after her heart stopped beating, during the blanching phase of livor mortis. Then, after livor became fixed, the white mark remained even though the cord had been removed by the coroner. I think the total evidence of the way the cord was made right on her neck, right in front of the wineceller door next to the paint tote, combined with the anterior urine stains on her clothing, bruise on her rear shoulder- if we look at all of it together, it tells us very simply two things- that she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. And that she was then placed in the wineceller on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been placed there before the body was moved in there) within 20 minutes or so of her death (before her blood settled). Moving her after that would have made a second livor pattern. There was only one. But JR could still have moved her from deeper in the WC to a position closer to the door the next morning during his "disappearance" because by then livor was fixed.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Sorry- I didn't pick up on the part about BlueCrab's old post. I think if her hands were swollen the coroner would have mentioned it. Of course, it is possible he failed to do so, but as there were no ligature marks on her wrists, I can't think of why they would be swollen (as far as a PRE-death cause).
The white ligature mark had to have been made after her heart stopped beating, during the blanching phase of livor mortis. Then, after livor became fixed, the white mark remained even though the cord had been removed by the coroner. I think the total evidence of the way the cord was made right on her neck, right in front of the wineceller door next to the paint tote, combined with the anterior urine stains on her clothing, bruise on her rear shoulder- if we look at all of it together, it tells us very simply two things- that she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. And that she was then placed in the wineceller on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been placed there before the body was moved in there) within 20 minutes or so of her death (before her blood settled). Moving her after that would have made a second livor pattern. There was only one. But JR could still have moved her from deeper in the WC to a position closer to the door the next morning during his "disappearance" because by then livor was fixed.

Thank you, DD. Ooops, sorry, I didn't spell correctly the 'BlueCraB' name...amberassing, sorry...I was trying to explain that TODAY's conversation was started based on old (2004) post made by BlueCraB...

Now, in regards of 'she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. I absolutely agree, you're correct: she DIES right there, next to WC while lying on her stomack = final act of STRANGULATION happens like you said!...But what about possibility that some other activities could happens BEFORE the final strangulation which involves another rope or scarf or ribbon?...For example, let's assume for a moment, that JBR was 'pose' with the 'ribbon' around her neck PRIOR to strangulation....and this ribbon was removed after she dies. Would this white line be there?...I think this what prior discussion was all about...JMO

 

[midwest mama]

Thank you, DD. Ooops, sorry, I didn't spell correctly the 'BlueCraB' name...amberassing, sorry...I was trying to explain that TODAY's conversation was started based on old (2004) post made by BlueCraB...

Now, in regards of 'she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. I absolutely agree, you're correct: she DIES right there, next to WC while lying on her stomack = final act of STRANGULATION happens like you said!...But what about possibility that some other activities could happens BEFORE the final strangulation which involves another rope or scarf or ribbon?...For example, let's assume for a moment, that JBR was 'pose' with the 'ribbon' around her neck PRIOR to strangulation....and this ribbon was removed after she dies. Would this white line be there?...I think this what prior discussion was all about...JMO

OM - Did you notice the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase in the photo on pge 237 of Kolar book?

 

[txsvicki]

Would the bruise on the back of the shoulder be from the strangler pressing with a thumb or finger while pulling the cord with the other hand?

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM - Did you notice the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase in the photo on pge 237 of Kolar book?

Good catch, MM....!!!!...Isn't kitty is always look better with the bow ribbon on her neck?....hmmmmmmm

 

[midwest mama]

Good catch, MM....!!!!...Isn't kitty is always look better with the bow ribbon on her neck?....hmmmmmmm

Good grief! Now, there was also a Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase. Anyone know of any characters that would have had a ribbon/collar bow around the neck?

 

[OpenMind4U]

Good grief! Now, there was also a Dr. Seuss book in the suitcase. Anyone know of any characters that would have had a ribbon/collar bow around the neck?

Isn't 'Cat in the Hat' has a bow?....

 

[midwest mama]

Isn't 'Cat in the Hat' has a bow?....

This freaks me out! A poster just during this past week who is now banned, made a comment about a pedophile ring connected to that book, and suggested that would be the book found in the train room suitcase. I googled it just now and got directed to some info about a satanic pedophile ring in Denver, and other places, known as the "Fat Cats". Heaven help me! I thought of the ransom note reference immediately. There must be info about these concepts elsewhere on this Forum over the years, but this all just has come crashing down on my head, and is too much for me to even absorb - the possibility after all that JB's murder was connected to this level of crime.

This is copy from a web page that I found when googling:

A synopsis of the Judi Chase story, a chilling expose that uncovers: a Satanic pedophile ring known as "The Fat Cats," pass-through nannies, staged adoptions, illicit baby brokering, murder, "legal" kidnapping, drug dealing, institutional stonewalling and a massive cover-up.

Makes my skin crawl. Somebody please assure me that none of this is connected to JB's death!

 

[UKGuy]

Thank you, DD. Ooops, sorry, I didn't spell correctly the 'BlueCraB' name...amberassing, sorry...I was trying to explain that TODAY's conversation was started based on old (2004) post made by BlueCraB...

Now, in regards of 'she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. I absolutely agree, you're correct: she DIES right there, next to WC while lying on her stomack = final act of STRANGULATION happens like you said!...But what about possibility that some other activities could happens BEFORE the final strangulation which involves another rope or scarf or ribbon?...For example, let's assume for a moment, that JBR was 'pose' with the 'ribbon' around her neck PRIOR to strangulation....and this ribbon was removed after she dies. Would this white line be there?...I think this what prior discussion was all about...JMO

OpenMind4U,

But what about possibility that some other activities could happens BEFORE the final strangulation which involves another rope or scarf or ribbon?...

Well I reckon the lower lividity mark suggests this. Another aspect to Lividity is the color of the skin which can reflect the amount of oxygen in the blood, so you can have pink, red, blue, or purple discoloration.

With Kolar suggesting a 90-minute timeframe from assault to asphyxiation, then who who knows what took place?

It appears as if someone, using the ligature alone, staged JonBenet's death. Or they attempted to ligature strangle her and failed.

This was all recognized towards the end of the 90-minute phase, resulting in the embellishments of the paintbrush handle, and its likely use as an assault weapon.


It looks as if during a sexual assault JonBenet fell or was pushed, and bashed her head. The rest is mostly staging.

.

 

[UKGuy]

This freaks me out! A poster just during this past week who is now banned, made a comment about a pedophile ring connected to that book, and suggested that would be the book found in the train room suitcase. I googled it just now and got directed to some info about a satanic pedophile ring in Denver, and other places, known as the "Fat Cats". Heaven help me! I thought of the ransom note reference immediately. There must be info about these concepts elsewhere on this Forum over the years, but this all just has come crashing down on my head, and is too much for me to even absorb - the possibility after all that JB's murder was connected to this level of crime.

This is copy from a web page that I found when googling:

A synopsis of the Judi Chase story, a chilling expose that uncovers: a Satanic pedophile ring known as "The Fat Cats," pass-through nannies, staged adoptions, illicit baby brokering, murder, "legal" kidnapping, drug dealing, institutional stonewalling and a massive cover-up.

Makes my skin crawl. Somebody please assure me that none of this is connected to JB's death!

midwest mama,
Ya gotta love WS. From ribbon to pedophile ring in the blink of an eye!

Its not connected as far as I know. There are numerous JonBenet conspiracy legends. None seem to pan out though.


.

 

[UKGuy]

Not trying to be rude, trying to understand your point. Your point is what I am attributing to you.





Ok, so your point is that if it is an unknown person (ie, some random psychopathic pedophile: IDI), this kind of violence may be required, but if it is a relative she knows and 'trusts', it may not be required....I think I am seeing your point on that...

But then, are you not making the case for IDI?

Or are you just saying that something had to change in this instance for it to escalate to that level, if it was a relative? (Fighting, force, BDI... etc?)

If you're RDI, yet speculating what may not have been needed depending on who did it, then we need to understand what is being speculated and why, so it's not confusing what case you are making; otherwise, it sounds like you are saying it had to be a unknown psychopathic pedophile based on the type of overkill that was used, an IDI. (And my point was that a relative or any stranger can overkill if that's what they choose to do, or are psychopathic, or whatever, themselves...).

I'll take the blame for being confused -- just asking for understanding, and explaining what it seemed like you meant as far as 'what is needed'...

Whaleshark,

Or are you just saying that something had to change in this instance for it to escalate to that level, if it was a relative? (Fighting, force, BDI... etc?)

Yes, if that is what took place. An alternative explanation might include the regular use of violence to subdue JonBenet, erotic asphyxiation, or some variant, any of which elevated on the night of her death, that is did someones fetish escalate beyond control?

And my point was that a relative or any stranger can overkill if that's what they choose to do, or are psychopathic, or whatever, themselves...).

I think thats what the staging is intended to suggest.


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

This freaks me out! A poster just during this past week who is now banned, made a comment about a pedophile ring connected to that book, and suggested that would be the book found in the train room suitcase. I googled it just now and got directed to some info about a satanic pedophile ring in Denver, and other places, known as the "Fat Cats". Heaven help me! I thought of the ransom note reference immediately. There must be info about these concepts elsewhere on this Forum over the years, but this all just has come crashing down on my head, and is too much for me to even absorb - the possibility after all that JB's murder was connected to this level of crime.

This is copy from a web page that I found when googling:

A synopsis of the Judi Chase story, a chilling expose that uncovers: a Satanic pedophile ring known as "The Fat Cats," pass-through nannies, staged adoptions, illicit baby brokering, murder, "legal" kidnapping, drug dealing, institutional stonewalling and a massive cover-up.

Makes my skin crawl. Somebody please assure me that none of this is connected to JB's death!

MM, first of all, I don't believe OUTSIDE conspiracy plays any role in JBR murder! Secondly, I don't belive in any INTRUDER theory, period!!! What I do believe is some kind of very-very 'sick'-minded person was involved.

IMO, it's all about sequencing of the events (like UKGuy was pointing out couple posts before): does ROPE was placed (not strangulation yet!) on JBR neck first and, after head injury happens, which leads to more escalated gruesome acts as the acute injury with painbrash and deathly strangulation??!!! If this is true then we're dealing with psyhologically-sexually-sick-minded person here!

Regardless of placing rope before the head injury or after, I cannot accept the acute injury and strangulation as the 'staging' acts because (for me!) these two acts, as the 'staging', do NOT fit the 'need' and 'mean' of this murder. And when I said 'need' it means the PURPOSE!....JMO...

In regards of the 'ribbon' - well, I just speculated to add the element of the child 'play' and possible explanation for the white line bellow the brown furrow

JMO

 

[txsvicki]

A problem with make believe play with household items that late in the evening is that all the brand new toys and having a bedtime snack might have been more important to the kids on that particular night.

 

[OpenMind4U]

A problem with make believe play with household items that late in the evening is that all the brand new toys and having a bedtime snack might have been more important to the kids on that particular night.

You're right, new toys would be important for 'normal' kids...IMO, if BDI then we're not talking about 'normality' here, right?...

 

[midwest mama]

midwest mama,
Ya gotta love WS. From ribbon to pedophile ring in the blink of an eye!

Its not connected as far as I know. There are numerous JonBenet conspiracy legends. None seem to pan out though.


.

Thanks, UKGUY, I got very little sleep last night, and your comment is settling to me!

I want to remain in the RDI camp, looking at JR for reasons other than any sort of sick Ring connection.