Known rope in the house

[midwest mama]

MM, first of all, I don't believe OUTSIDE conspiracy plays any role in JBR murder! Secondly, I don't belive in any INTRUDER theory, period!!! What I do believe is some kind of very-very 'sick'-minded person was involved.

IMO, it's all about sequencing of the events (like UKGuy was pointing out couple posts before): does ROPE was placed (not strangulation yet!) on JBR neck first and, after head injury happens, which leads to more escalated gruesome acts as the acute injury with painbrash and deathly strangulation??!!! If this is true then we're dealing with psyhologically-sexually-sick-minded person here!

Regardless of placing rope before the head injury or after, I cannot accept the acute injury and strangulation as the 'staging' acts because (for me!) these two acts, as the 'staging', do NOT fit the 'need' and 'mean' of this murder. And when I said 'need' it means the PURPOSE!....JMO...

In regards of the 'ribbon' - well, I just speculated to add the element of the child 'play' and possible explanation for the white line bellow the brown furrow

JMO

OM - The more I look at the aspects of this case, the more I think, too, that this murder was beyond the acts of staging just to cover up a head blow that looked like it killed JB.

The things done to her were BEYOND what would have needed to be done to 'stage' anything related to a kidnapping or as a cover-up. And, IT WAS INDEED A VERY, VERY SICK - EVEN RAGE-FILLED, PERSON(S) WHO DID THIS!

I definitely do not think there was an 'Intruder' - the breaking in and entering kind. If anyone outside of any of the R's was involved, it HAD to be someone JB trusted and knew, and could have gotten in with a key or be let it. BUT, no corroborating fibers, evidence, etc. publicized as of yet, so we really do have to discount that aspect also.

Someone(s) in that family is a DEVIANT beyond the comprehension of a rational mind.:what: :moo:

 

[midwest mama]

A problem with make believe play with household items that late in the evening is that all the brand new toys and having a bedtime snack might have been more important to the kids on that particular night.

Clever. And JB also thought Santa was going to come again that night, so maybe she figured she and Burke should go look to see if indeed he did, and maybe Burke wasn't too happy about having his little sister wake him up to go prowling around the house at that time of night?

 

[UKGuy]

Clever. And JB also thought Santa was going to come again that night, so maybe she figured she and Burke should go look to see if indeed he did, and maybe Burke wasn't too happy about having his little sister wake him up to go prowling around the house at that time of night?

midwest mama,
Well I reckon the R's arrived back home, after delivering gifts, say about, 10 PM, by approx. 12:00 hours JonBenet was dead?

Everything appeared normal, the Whites attended the R's Christmas party and R's attended that of the Whites.

Nothing unusual happened, possibly not even the molestation of JonBenet. This might have been a regular event at vacation and weekends for her?

JonBenet had her pineapple snack, and Burke made himself some tea. Patsy probably made up the pineapple at an earlier date, and Burke or Patsy served it for JonBenet that night, since there was condensed milk in the bowl. It seems as if this took place uneventfully, otherwise surely Patsy and/or John would have factored this into their version of events?

Was JonBenet a fast eater, would she consume her snack quickly or might this take 20-minutes or so? Did Burke hang around or walk away with his tea, leaving a teabag behind?

Perfect Murder/Perfect Town , excerpt.

At about midnight, Scott Gibbons, a neighbor, looked out his kitchen window toward the Ramseys’ house and saw a light on in the kitchen area. Sometime later, Adam Fermeire, another neighbor, who was up watching TV, said he didn’t notice anything strange through the window that faced the Ramseys’ house.

So the snack may have been taking place at this point in time?

So lets assume it is now around 10:30 to 10:45 PM at night, JonBenet has finished her snack and someone is now molesting her. Why, because everyone else is tired, wanting to relax, so the children are left to their own devices?

You could construct a BDI assuming that Burke and JonBenet went down to the basement searching for more Christmas gifts, hence the partially opened gifts, could be JonBenet knew she was to recieve a Barbie Doll and was impatient, maybe Burke wanted to check out his Birthday gifts? Did JonBenet really want a Barbie Doll for Christmas and not some JonBenet lookalike? Is this why there is no video footage of JonBenet opening her gifts?

Or maybe its a PDI with Patsy finding JonBenet and Burke playing with gifts, she then loses it and accidentally injures JonBenet, or did Burke swing a golf-club again?


For me it appears that Christmas is the factor that makes that day and that abuse different from other occassions? Would anyone disgree with that or maintain that JonBenet was not molested at some point after 10:00 PM and before she was whacked on the head either accidentally or deliberately?


.

 

[Tadpole12]

OM - Did you notice the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase in the photo on pge 237 of Kolar book?

Heyya midwest mama,
Could the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase be part of the interior bands/straps?

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=dr+se...w=59&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:155

 

[UKGuy]

A problem with make believe play with household items that late in the evening is that all the brand new toys and having a bedtime snack might have been more important to the kids on that particular night.

txsvicki,
Well JonBenet was not interested in her new doll, and her bike could hardly be played on so late at night.

John and Burke alibi each other saying JR was helping Burke with some toy?


So what would JonBenet do, once she finished her pineapple snack, where would she go? Lets assume she went with the person who sexually assaulted her, and I seriously doubt that would take place in the kitchen?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

OM - The more I look at the aspects of this case, the more I think, too, that this murder was beyond the acts of staging just to cover up a head blow that looked like it killed JB.

The things done to her were BEYOND what would have needed to be done to 'stage' anything related to a kidnapping or as a cover-up. And, IT WAS INDEED A VERY, VERY SICK - EVEN RAGE-FILLED, PERSON(S) WHO DID THIS!

I definitely do not think there was an 'Intruder' - the breaking in and entering kind. If anyone outside of any of the R's was involved, it HAD to be someone JB trusted and knew, and could have gotten in with a key or be let it. BUT, no corroborating fibers, evidence, etc. publicized as of yet, so we really do have to discount that aspect also.

Someone(s) in that family is a DEVIANT beyond the comprehension of a rational mind.:what: :moo:

I know, I'm in 'minority' here, for not accepting the strangulation and acute injury as the 'staging'....

IMO, we need to think from PR/JR perspective, if we could...Let's say accident happens and BR involves. JBR is dying. Parents know that something wrong happens to her head. They couldn't see the damage but the evidences of the fatal injury is there, right up-front of them: JBR in comotose state, not responsive, possibly with some convulsions...What to do to mislead the police, relatives and friends?

PR and JR are all about the appearances, right? Especially, PR. She wouldn't care about JBR cleanleness on regular basis. When asked:'when the last time JBR took the bath?', PR said: 'I don't know'. However, prior the pageant, she said 'I would give JBR the full 'scrap'. Now, in preparation for JBR funeral, PR was very much concerned if JBR's body has any marks on her arms and if yes then she would need the proper dress to COVER them from anyone to see....Appearances!!! Remember what she told Burke staying next to the casket of her baby:'She looks perfect!' (or something like this)...

By taking the above characterization of PR/JR priorities of APPEARANCES, I cannot see them (anyone of them!!!) to damage JBR neck with the ligature for the 'staging' purpose!!! If they NEED to ease JBR suffering and at the same time point to the 'kidnappers' - what would stopped them to use the pillow to suffocate JBR?!!! Which manual said that 'kidnappers' didn't use 'suffocation' on their victim? Strangulation as the 'staging' is not only OVERDONE act but absolutely out of PR/JR character/profile...JMO

Now, let's talk about acute injury. This is a little bit more complicated issue because I'm NOT 100% sure when it happens. But for the sake of the argument, let say it happens after the head blow. Majority of people on WS think that this acute injury was 'staged' as well, to cover-up the prior sexual assult. First of all, how the ONE TIME 'poke' into JBR vagina would cover the prior assult? From the medical point of view, where this philosophy comes from?! Where is it saying that chronic sexual injuries to vagina could be covered/overlayed by one-time recent acute one?! But the most important: how PR/JR would know if they were successfull with this ONE TIME 'poke' attempt? ...just because they saw the blood?!!!...And why wipe it-off after? What purpose of this?...At the minimum, it would make 'kidnapper' looks very kind and neat....Nope, 'acute injury' is not the 'staging' because it has no purpose what's so ever...JMO

Therefore, TODAY, I'm convinced: if BDI - we should prepare ourself for very ugly psychological disorder.

I know, this thread is about ROPES...sorry for OT discussion...

 

[dodie20]

OM - The more I look at the aspects of this case, the more I think, too, that this murder was beyond the acts of staging just to cover up a head blow that looked like it killed JB.

The things done to her were BEYOND what would have needed to be done to 'stage' anything related to a kidnapping or as a cover-up. And, IT WAS INDEED A VERY, VERY SICK - EVEN RAGE-FILLED, PERSON(S) WHO DID THIS!

I definitely do not think there was an 'Intruder' - the breaking in and entering kind. If anyone outside of any of the R's was involved, it HAD to be someone JB trusted and knew, and could have gotten in with a key or be let it. BUT, no corroborating fibers, evidence, etc. publicized as of yet, so we really do have to discount that aspect also.

Someone(s) in that family is a DEVIANT beyond the comprehension of a rational mind.:what: :moo:

I'm still not convinced that most of this wasn't staging to cover the head bash. If someone wanted to make it look like a perverted psycho molested and killed JB, he did a pretty good job, IMO, though, a few things were lacking...like JB being wiped down and there not being a full rape. IMO, it's possible that a female, in an attempt to point to a male perp, wiped JB, in order to hide that there wasn't any fluid evidence. Also, it's not a stretch to think that the perp thought investigators wouldn't be able to tell the difference between digital and full rape. Actually, I'm surprised that investigators Can tell the difference, even 15 yrs later. Also, this whole scene, imo, looks like something somebody conjured up, in an attempt to impersonate a psycho rapist. Considering the time lapse between the bash and strangulation, and of How JB was strangled, I'm inclined to think JB's killer was very close to her, and had a hard time finishing her off. IMO, it appears that JB's face was turned away during the strangulation, (so the perp wouldn't have to look at her?), and he/she used the 'garotte', so he wouldn't have to use his bare hands...all in an attempt to distance and remove himself from the deed. All Moo, in an attempt to make sense of the evidence. Also, just to point out, this theory wouldn't exclude a male as the perp...a male who didn't full rape JB, but wanted to make it look like she had been. MOO.

 

[midwest mama]

I'm still not convinced that most of this wasn't staging to cover the head bash. If someone wanted to make it look like a perverted psycho molested and killed JB, he did a pretty good job, IMO, though, a few things were lacking...like JB being wiped down and there not being a full rape. IMO, it's possible that a female, in an attempt to point to a male perp, wiped JB, in order to hide that there wasn't any fluid evidence. Also, it's not a stretch to think that the perp thought investigators wouldn't be able to tell the difference between digital and full rape. Actually, I'm surprised that investigators Can tell the difference, even 15 yrs later. Also, this whole scene, imo, looks like something somebody conjured up, in an attempt to impersonate a psycho rapist. Considering the time lapse between the bash and strangulation, and of How JB was strangled, I'm inclined to think JB's killer was very close to her, and had a hard time finishing her off. IMO, it appears that JB's face was turned away during the strangulation, (so the perp wouldn't have to look at her?), and he/she used the 'garotte', so he wouldn't have to use his bare hands...all in an attempt to distance and remove himself from the deed. All Moo, in an attempt to make sense of the evidence.

If I follow your thinking, you see Patsy, unless you think there was a female intruder, responsible at least from knowing about the head bash, through the final strangulation, but having a hard time pulling it off because of emotions?
But you also think she was capable of visualizing and staging what a psychopath rapist would be able to do. Doesn't that indicate she must have had a very, very twisted mind - almost DEVIANT - and perhaps even disordered enough to be considered a multi-personality? In which case, it's possible she could have created the crime in one personality, and the other wouldn't even have known it? Just saying......:moo:

Of course, JR was said to have changed considerably after his oldest daughter died - more quiet, etc. Might he not also been 'fractured' enough to become the kind of person who could have become responsible for molestation and heinous crimes? Sometimes those 'genious' type minds he was said to have had are only a fine line away from lunacy. JMHO!

 

[qtc]

I am wondering about the poke to her vagina. If it was indeed intended to cover prior abuse, why wasnt more damage done by the perperator? Why wasnt she more vigorously or violently assault to cause more damage to cover up abuse that had been commited in the past?

 

[OpenMind4U]

I am wondering about the poke to her vagina. If it was indeed intended to cover prior abuse, why wasnt more damage done by the perperator? Why wasnt she more vigorously or violently assault to cause more damage to cover up abuse that had been commited in the past?

Absolutely!!! It has no purpose whats so ever, like I said before. Thank you for understanding.

On another hand, if acute injury was done to 'stage' the rape (with or without knowledge of the prior abuse) then WHY WIPE IT OFF???!!!!!...you see, no matter how you look at this - it has no purpose to 'STAGE', JMO.

 

[dodie20]

If I follow your thinking, you see Patsy, unless you think there was a female intruder, responsible at least from knowing about the head bash, through the final strangulation, but having a hard time pulling it off because of emotions?
But you also think she was capable of visualizing and staging what a psychopath rapist would be able to do. Doesn't that indicate she must have had a very, very twisted mind - almost DEVIANT - and perhaps even disordered enough to be considered a multi-personality? In which case, it's possible she could have created the crime in one personality, and the other wouldn't even have known it? Just saying......:moo:

Of course, JR was said to have changed considerably after his oldest daughter died - more quiet, etc. Might he not also been 'fractured' enough to become the kind of person who could have become responsible for molestation and heinous crimes? Sometimes those 'genious' type minds he was said to have had are only a fine line away from lunacy. JMHO!

What I see, (but I could change my mind again), is a HUGE rage, that led to the head bash, and then self preservation kicked in, and a twisted mind, thought up the rape, etc. My main problem though, is with the time lapse between the bash and strangulation. IMO, the killer might have thought the bash killed JB, and the strangulation was staging...only to find out that the strangulation was what actually caused the death, after the autopsy report came out. Or, the killer waited for JB to die of the head bash, but when she didn't, he/she finished the job. But really, if the killer thought the bash killed her, there was no need in the world, to strangle her. It's not like the strangulation would 'cover' the head bash, and even a psycho molester, wouldn't get satisfaction out of strangling a dead child, would he? so, imo, the killer probably realized JB was still alive. And no, I don't believe this was a mercy killing. If BR caused the bash, (like a lot of people think), I don't believe for a second, that PR or JR, finished the job. IMO, whoever caused the head bash, was responsible for everything, at least until later the next day. All moo.

 

[OpenMind4U]

What I see, (but I could change my mind again), is a HUGE rage, that led to the head bash, and then self preservation kicked in, and a twisted mind, thought up the rape, etc. My main problem though, is with the time lapse between the bash and strangulation. IMO, the killer might have thought the bash killed JB, and the strangulation was staging...only to find out that the strangulation was what actually caused the death, after the autopsy report came out. Or, the killer waited for JB to die of the head bash, but when she didn't, he/she finished the job. But really, if the killer thought the bash killed her, there was no need in the world, to strangle her. It's not like the strangulation would 'cover' the head bash, and even a psycho molester, wouldn't get satisfaction out of strangling a dead child, would he? so, imo, the killer probably realized JB was still alive. And no, I don't believe this was a mercy killing. If BR caused the bash, (like a lot of people think), I don't believe for a second, that PR or JR, finished the job. IMO, whoever caused the head bash, was responsible for everything, at least until later the next day. All moo.

Thank you dodie20!...

 

[rashomon]

I know, I'm in 'minority' here, for not accepting the strangulation and acute injury as the 'staging'....

The cord around the a paintbrsuh stick is clearly a stage prop: the neck ligature was fixed by a double knot (see autopsy report), whereas the handle suggests some kind of pulling device.
But this was no noose which could be tightened and and loosened, but a tied knot. No handle was needed to tie this kot, on the contrary, a handle is counterproductive for this kind of knot, especially since there is a long distance -17 inches (!) - between the tied knot and the handle.
The amount of JonBenet's hair which ended up in the neck knot points to fingerwork where the stager's hands got in contact with the victim's hair and accidentally tied some of it into the knot.
The stager did make an effort to tie the neck knot tightly, and it finally cut off the last oxygen supply to JonBenet already in deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.
I think the stage prop handle was fashioned after the knot had already been tied.

By taking the above characterization of PR/JR priorities of APPEARANCES, I cannot see them (anyone of them!!!) to damage JBR neck with the ligature for the 'staging' purpose!!! If they NEED to ease JBR suffering and at the same time point to the 'kidnappers' - what would stopped them to use the pillow to suffocate JBR?!!! Which manual said that 'kidnappers' didn't use 'suffocation' on their victim? Strangulation as the 'staging' is not only act but absolutely out of PR/JR character/profile...JMO

But "OVERDONE" was exactly what the stager had in mind because the brutal 'tortured and strangled' scenario served the purpose to direct LE's attention away from family involvement.

Now, let's talk about acute injury. This is a little bit more complicated issue because I'm NOT 100% sure when it happens. But for the sake of the argument, let say it happens after the head blow. Majority of people on WS think that this acute injury was 'staged' as well, to cover-up the prior sexual assult. First of all, how the ONE TIME 'poke' into JBR vagina would cover the prior assult? From the medical point of view, where this philosophy comes from?! Where is it saying that chronic sexual injuries to vagina could be covered/overlayed by one-time recent acute one?! But the most important: how PR/JR would know if they were successfull with this ONE TIME 'poke' attempt?

Many crime scenes are poorly staged; the stagers can never "know" if their attempts will succesfully mislead the police.

...just because they saw the blood?!!!...And why wipe it-off after? What purpose of this?

For example, the stager could not have wanted the blood to drip down in the location where the staging took place.

Or the stager abruptly stopped because he/she could not bring himself/herself to go on.
Wiping off the blood could be an act of 'undoing' on the part of the parent. Parental acts of 'undoing' are not uncommon in such situations.

 

[UKGuy]

The cord around the a paintbrsuh stick is cleary a stage prop: the neck ligature was fixed by a double knot (see autopsy report), whereas the handle suggests some kind of pulling device.
But this was no noose which could be tightened and and loosened, but a tied knot. No handle was needed to tie this kot, on the contrary, a handle is counterproductive for this kind of knot, especially since there is a long distance -17 inches (!) - between the tied knot and the handle.
The amount of JonBenet's hair which ended up in the neck knot points to fingerwork where the stager's hands got in contact with the victim's hair and accidentally tied some of it into the knot.
The stager did make an effort to tie the neck knot tightly, and it finally cut off the last oxygen supply to JonBenet already in deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.
I think the stage prop handle was fashioned after the knot had already been tied.


But "OVERDONE" was exactly what the stager had in mind because the brutal 'tortured and strangled' scenario served the purpose to direct LE's attention away from family involvement.

Many crime scenes are poorly staged; the stagers can never "know" if their attempts will succesfully mislead the police.

For example, the stager could not have wanted the blood to drip down in the location where the staging took place.

Or the stager abruptly stopped because he/she could not bring himself/herself to go on.
Wiping off the blood could be an act of 'undoing' on the part of the parent. Parental acts of 'undoing' are not uncommon in such situations.

rashomon,
Nice summary of the staging. Because we cannot explain away all the different aspects of the staging does not invalidate it as staging.

For example, the stager could not have wanted the blood to drip down in the location where the staging took place.

Exactly, was JonBenet naked when she was wiped down? There may have been a prior staging elsewhere in the house with JonBenet brought to the basement then restaged, e.g. size-12's, genital injury, construction of the garrote, wrapped in blanket, items dumped into the wine-cellar, e.g. barbie-doll, barbie-nightgown, partially opened gifts etc, all hidden away out of sight, but with the main purpose of masking where the primary crime-scene was, and faking a secondary crime-scene!


If you doubt there was a sexual assault that night then maybe it is a PDI, as per ST?

Since explaining away the head bash, particularly with the force applied, in a molestation context, is difficult. It usually happens the other way around?


.

 

[OpenMind4U]

The cord around the a paintbrsuh stick is cleary a stage prop: the neck ligature was fixed by a double knot (see autopsy report), whereas the handle suggests some kind of pulling device.
But this was no noose which could be tightened and and loosened, but a tied knot. No handle was needed to tie this kot, on the contrary, a handle is counterproductive for this kind of knot, especially since there is a long distance -17 inches (!) - between the tied knot and the handle.
The amount of JonBenet's hair which ended up in the neck knot points to fingerwork where the stager's hands got in contact with the victim's hair and accidentally tied some of it into the knot.
The stager did make an effort to tie the neck knot tightly, and it finally cut off the last oxygen supply to JonBenet already in deep coma from the head blow, nearing death.
I think the stage prop handle was fashioned after the knot had already been tied.


But "OVERDONE" was exactly what the stager had in mind because the brutal 'tortured and strangled' scenario served the purpose to direct LE's attention away from family involvement.

Many crime scenes are poorly staged; the stagers can never "know" if their attempts will succesfully mislead the police.

For example, the stager could not have wanted the blood to drip down in the location where the staging took place.

Or the stager abruptly stopped because he/she could not bring himself/herself to go on.
Wiping off the blood could be an act of 'undoing' on the part of the parent. Parental acts of 'undoing' are not uncommon in such situations.

rashomon, now, we're talking the same language!!!...I'm very much believe that a lot of 'staging' activities were exist in JBR murder scene, as well as 'undue'...let's see...

The cord around the a paintbrsuh stick is cleary a stage prop...(skip)...No handle was needed to tie this kot, on the contrary, a handle is counterproductive for this kind of knot...(skip)...I think the stage prop handle was fashioned after the knot had already been tied.

AGREE!

Wiping off the blood could be an act of 'undoing' on the part of the parent. Parental acts of 'undoing' are not uncommon in such situations

AGREE!

The stager did make an effort to tie the neck knot tightly...

Excellent sentence! Let's talk about more. You said 'STAGER' ties the knot. And we're talking the knot on her neck, not on woodstick, right? Great!...Now,

Question #1. Why would the 'stager' who's already ties the knot tightly (oxygen supply is off, JBR is death in 5-10 seconds) would need to add an additional 'garotte'-like stuff? Does it add more 'torture' feeling to it? If your answer is YES then I have...

Question #2. Please tell me what kind of MIND the 'stager' should have to feel that STRANGULATION is not 'torturess' enough...hence need to add more elements of 'torture' like 'garotte'?? If your answer is SICK MIND then (guess what?, yeap..,

Question #3. If only the person with the SICK MIND could think of strangulation as the 'TORTUREs' device then why are you calling him a 'stager' and give him the 'stager' role?!!!

:woohoo:

Why not keep it simple: the rope has been tide already by the SICK-MINDed bustard...and the 'stager' just added the woodstick with the knot to 'stage' the torture?!!!!! Especially, because there wasn't any 'torture', just pretence of it, right?...

Makes sense?....JMO

 

[DeeDee249]

Thank you, DD. Ooops, sorry, I didn't spell correctly the 'BlueCraB' name...amberassing, sorry...I was trying to explain that TODAY's conversation was started based on old (2004) post made by BlueCraB...

Now, in regards of 'she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. I absolutely agree, you're correct: she DIES right there, next to WC while lying on her stomack = final act of STRANGULATION happens like you said!...But what about possibility that some other activities could happens BEFORE the final strangulation which involves another rope or scarf or ribbon?...For example, let's assume for a moment, that JBR was 'pose' with the 'ribbon' around her neck PRIOR to strangulation....and this ribbon was removed after she dies. Would this white line be there?...I think this what prior discussion was all about...JMO

I find it hard to believe that a coroner (and other experts who reviewed the autopsy itself and/or photos would not have been able to tell whether there had been a prior strangulation with a scarf or something else first.
In Kolar's book, he did say that some experts felt the large red triangular "abrasion" may have been caused by the twisting of the shirt around her neck. If that is the case (and it by no means a fact), that could very well explain the strangulation as staging.
The white mark on her throat seems to be exactly the same width as the red ligature furrow, so to me it looks like it was made by the same thing. Keep in mind that whatever made the WHITE mark came AFTER the cord making the RED mark. If anything was removed after her death BEFORE livor was fixed, the white mark would disappear as the blood seeped into that area. If it was removed AFTER livor was fixed, the white mark would remain.
Unfortunately we do not see all the autopsy photos of her neck, especially the ones before the cord was removed. If we did, we could see whether any of the ligature was actually over that white mark. We would be able to tell if the white mark was made by that ligature or possibly by something else.
One thing Kolar's book also made clear- NO experts reviewing the autopsy felt she fell or was pushed into something. They all agree she was hit with something. There is simply NOTHING that would have made a hole like that and a fracture LIKE THAT from being pushed or falling against it- even a faucet that sticks out, a doorknob or a tub edge. This doesn't mean a fracture wouldn't result, it means THAT fracture wouldn't result.
I am always puzzled when some of the details that HAVE been concluded (like the head bash coming BEFORE the strangulation and being caused by her being hit WITH something) seem to be questioned all the time. We have so little that has been stated definitively that I tend to believe what the experts have to say. They have seen the body and/or all the photos, and we have not.

 

[Nehemiah]

Nehemiah, you were asking about Blue Crab not long ago? I hadn't read much from him since apparently he disappeared before I started posting here at WS. I've read this entire thread now, and I can see why you would be wondering what happened to him, considering what we are learning lately. So much of what he was speculating I have been saying for a long time as well. I didn't realize there was anyone who saw so many things the same way I see them. He (and you?) even saw the evidence of a "partial hanging" (which no one else wants to believe me on). I'm going to have to read more of his posts.
.

Otg, I always found this interview with John Walsh very interesting:

WALSH: I mean, you are a detective and you go to a kidnapping of a high -- prominent family in a very wealthy area, and then, you know, police work 101, you clear the house and you clear the crime scene. She allowed the father and his friend to search the house. SO HE CUTS DOWN JONBENET, WHO IS HANGING DOWN THERE. He compromised the crime scene, whether he had anything to do with it or he had nothing to do with it, HE CUT DOWN HIS DAUGHTER IN THE CRIME SCENE WITH THE DNA."
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0203/04/lkl.00.html

 

[dodie20]

IMO, the 'staging' would depend on how much the killer thought he/she could fool investigators. Would they think the molestation was a full rape? maybe. I know it surprises me that medical investigators can tell the difference, so maybe the killer thought any forced entry was enough? I don't necessarily see JB being wiped down as 'undoing' or remorse. (there were other things that needed to be undone before a cleaning, imo). I think it's possible, in an effort to fool investigators, the killer wiped her down to make it look like a male rapist cleaned his fluids and other evidence that would lead back to him. So, IMO, the wiping down, might be a part of staging. While this staging wouldn't actually point to a male, it's more of a point than not wiping her down. As far as prior abuse, I'm not sure the killer was worried about hiding it.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I find it hard to believe that a coroner (and other experts who reviewed the autopsy itself and/or photos would not have been able to tell whether there had been a prior strangulation with a scarf or something else first.
In Kolar's book, he did say that some experts felt the large red triangular "abrasion" may have been caused by the twisting of the shirt around her neck. If that is the case (and it by no means a fact), that could very well explain the strangulation as staging.
The white mark on her throat seems to be exactly the same width as the red ligature furrow, so to me it looks like it was made by the same thing. Keep in mind that whatever made the WHITE mark came AFTER the cord making the RED mark. If anything was removed after her death BEFORE livor was fixed, the white mark would disappear as the blood seeped into that area. If it was removed AFTER livor was fixed, the white mark would remain.
Unfortunately we do not see all the autopsy photos of her neck, especially the ones before the cord was removed. If we did, we could see whether any of the ligature was actually over that white mark. We would be able to tell if the white mark was made by that ligature or possibly by something else.
One thing Kolar's book also made clear- NO experts reviewing the autopsy felt she fell or was pushed into something. They all agree she was hit with something. There is simply NOTHING that would have made a hole like that and a fracture LIKE THAT from being pushed or falling against it- even a faucet that sticks out, a doorknob or a tub edge. This doesn't mean a fracture wouldn't result, it means THAT fracture wouldn't result.
I am always puzzled when some of the details that HAVE been concluded (like the head bash coming BEFORE the strangulation and being caused by her being hit WITH something) seem to be questioned all the time. We have so little that has been stated definitively that I tend to believe what the experts have to say. They have seen the body and/or all the photos, and we have not.

Thank you DD. As usual, very informative post. To be honest, originally I believed that door knob could cause such an injury. But after reading cynic and otg posts - I understand that I was wrong, The shape of the fracture would match the door knob but scientifically and by the law of physics - it wouldn't be possible.

In regards of the ligature, I agree, too bad that we don't have other autopsy photos. But like you said, LE saw these pictures and they have an experts to guide them in discovery - so, if there would be some other explanation, we would hear about by now (if it's not belong to the set of dozen secrets they're keeping in their 'safe'...

I hope I didn't confuse you with my prior posts. Everyone has their own 'vision' of how this crime was executed. And I do believe ST, Kolar and many other experts have explained very well: the head injury happens first and strangulation last (by Kolar, up to 90 min in between!!! - the biggest bombshell for me). But somehow, without any FACTS, I have a feeling that rope was already on JBR neck when head blow accurs. It wasn't tide tightly enough to kill JBR yet... but was there causing certain abrasions which prompted to cover-up with the strangulation later on (using the same rope or another one). Again, I have absolutely no facts in support of this 'feeling'/speculation....The only thing I have - it's a white line which as you explained many times before - could only be happened after JBR death....

Thank you again for your patience and willingness to share your knowledge. Appreciated!

 

[txsvicki]

If the vaginal jab was staging then it could have been done to tear the hymen because he/she knew there should be an undamaged one if the body was found and examined. Whoever it was must have known that there was enough previous damage to never be able to explain. It's telling that experts said the previous damage was probably digital and the paint stick was about the same size. The violet colored bruise on the labia is another indicator of something. If the bruise happened previously then that had to be made to look like part of the assault. I wonder if kolar has some ideas about that and caused some of his hinted at conclusions in the book.