Known rope in the house

[Linda7NJ]

Clever. And JB also thought Santa was going to come again that night, so maybe she figured she and Burke should go look to see if indeed he did, and maybe Burke wasn't too happy about having his little sister wake him up to go prowling around the house at that time of night?

IMO if its true, as the author suggests ..,,.burke did it, I do not believe it was an accident.


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[midwest mama]

Heyya midwest mama,
Could the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase be part of the interior bands/straps?

http://www.google.ca/imgres?q=dr+se...w=59&start=0&ndsp=12&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:155

Maybe. Don't know what the tie-down straps inside of one of those old Samsonites would have looked like, and with photo in black and white, if the color of the 'ribbon' was a match to the suitcase color. But the 'ribbon' hanging out of the suitcase looked more narrow in width than I would suspect one of the straps to be, and also thinner in fabric makeup than I would think a strap might be. :dunno:

You're a long time poster - what's your thought on fibers from inside the suitcase having been found on JB's clothing? How would they have gotten there through secondary transfer, or do you think someone tried to put JB into the suitcase to hide her body, found out she wouldn't fit, and had to move her elsewhere?

 

[dodie20]

IMO if its true, as the author suggests ..,,.burke did it, I do not believe it was an accident.


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does Kolar explain why he thought BR would have bashed her so savagely? If rage wasn't the motive, I can't imagine what was. If he was carrying around this much rage and hatred, surely somebody would have intervened, because there's no way on this green earth, a 9 yr old kid could suppress these kinds of emotions. What about the chocolates? Does Kolar think BR was responsible, and if so, does he have evidence that we haven't heard about? because the chocolates themselves, don't point to any particular person. Those chocolates, imo, are as close to a smoking gun as we'll ever see. IMO, if it was BR, then he should have been seriously looked at. If PR covered for him, why didn't she destroy the chocolates? If JB smeared the feces, then I see motive for the initial rage, but not the strangulation. And I can't wrap my mind around 1 of the parents making the mess, except as a set-up, but having access to somebody elses feces, would have been impossible. moo

 

[otg]

OM - Did you notice the ribbon hanging out of the suitcase in the photo on pge 237 of Kolar book?

I hate to spoil the fun we were having with conjecture (ribbon + kitty + Dr. Seuss book = Cat in the Hat [FONT=&quot]≈[/FONT] Fat Cats [FONT=&quot]=[/FONT] Pedophile Ring), but maybe a couple of color pictures might help explain the ribbon:

​

.

 

[OpenMind4U]

I hate to spoil the fun we were having with conjecture (ribbon + kitty + Dr. Seuss book = Cat in the Hat [FONT=&quot]≈[/FONT] Fat Cats [FONT=&quot]=[/FONT] Pedophile Ring), but maybe a couple of color pictures might help explain the ribbon:

​

.

otg, ...you shouldn't spoil the fine....we're just warmed-up with the nursery rhymes...just joking....thank you for the suitcase pictures! Based on the JR interview in 1998, he was the one who moved this JAR suitcase into the basement but not to the train room! And he thought/remember (?) that suitcase was empthy....now, times for more rhymes:

English version:

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again

Rare 1842 version (cont)

Humpty Dumpty lay in a beck.
With all his sinews around his neck;
Forty Doctors and forty wrights
Couldn't put Humpty Dumpty to rights!

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humpty_Dumpty"]Humpty Dumpty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

...LOL...English language has such a 'strange' rhymes....but kids love it!

 

[midwest mama]

OTG and OM4U - Looks like the 'ribbon' hanging out of the suitcase could have been an inside tie-down strap. Did make for some interesting conjecture! I still don't like the Fat Cats connection I read about - creeps me out when thought about how that phrase was used in the ransom note.

And I know there has been speculation about the R's being involved in a Ring, maybe even the one that practiced the "Last Bulb of the Christmas Tree" rituals. Combine that with JB's talking at school about scary people in black robes, and that whole scene just haunts the cobwebs of my overactive mind.

One poster recently commented that this crime happened on Christmas night, with emphasis, and that should be considered in the 'why' of this crime.

There would not have had to be an intruder involved in the death crime - the R's (or singular R) could have decided it was time to shut her up!

As I've said before, thinking this whole crime could have been entangled in such a heinous web in unreal. But there has been so much deception involved from the very beginning in dealing with the case through so many levels, and no one ever seems able to pinpoint anything that could lead to a reasonable explanation. Evil is a powerful force - not to be reckoned with easily, and this crime reeks of evil in one form or another from too many angles.

 

[otg]

Lots of earlier questions about “hanging”. Good! It answers a lot of the questions that everyone has about JonBenet’s death and some of the injuries that couldn’t be hidden by staging. I’m going to tell you more than you could possibly want to know about it in a general sense so the effects are understood. But I’ll stop just short of telling you about angel lust. And then in another post, I’ll tell you how all of this applies in JonBenet’s death --IMO.

The type of hanging that most people think of when they hear the word, and the image conjured up in their mind, is where the victim's body is completely suspended in the air, perhaps even swinging from a gallows or dangling from a tree. This is usually the case when it is a judicial (execution) or an extrajudicial (lynching) hanging. But even then, there are different forms of hanging.

Hanging can be done with a great enough drop distance that it breaks the person's neck resulting in almost instant death, it can be done with less drop distance so there is a longer time of struggle before death occurs, or it can be done with no fall distance where the ligature is pulled until the victim is raised off the ground (as was probably done with Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring before they were killed). This last method relies on the person’s body weight alone to apply pressure to the neck.

The drop distance in a judicially sanctioned hanging is classified according to the desired effect. Suspension is where the ligature tied around the neck is used to raise the victim’s body off the ground. It involves pressure on the trachea and blockage of blood in the jugular vein and carotid artery. A short drop is where the victim stands on a object that is kicked out from under them, or they are placed on a horse or a cart that is pulled away leaving them to dangle. The standard drop is between four to six feet; it became standard when a well-known doctor proclaimed it to be the most “humane” because it was enough to break the person’s neck (usually without enough force to decapitate him). The long drop (aka, measured drop) was a supposed scientific improvement over the standard drop in that it took into consideration the person’s height and weight and also required careful positioning of the knot to improve probability of breaking the neck. The Official Table of Drops was published in 1888 by the British government as a guide to calculate the appropriate length of rope for long drop hangings.

But if any part of the body is still supported it is classified as a “partial” hanging, or suspension.

Partial hanging is a fairly common cause of accidental death among infants where they have become entangled in a curtain cord and fallen or lost their balance; or they get their neck wrapped in a garment, a bedsheet, or even some type of toy before losing their balance. When this happens, what you usually hear is that the child was accidentally "strangled" -- which is true, but it was actually a partial hanging.

Partial hanging is also a very common method of suicide. Hanging is the most common method of suicide in Canada, and is second in the U.S. (behind firearm suicide). It is considered to be fairly painless since unconsciousness occurs quickly after blood is restricted to the brain, and death occurs while unconscious. Full body weight is not required in order to restrict blood flow to the brain. In fact, once a ligature is applied, only about five pounds (~2¼ kg) of pressure is required for occlusion of the blood vessels. Five pounds of pressure is less than would be generated by simply raising a child’s head off the ground with a ligature around the neck while in a prone position.

In non-judicial hangings, the ligature mark will be situated above the level of the thyroid cartilage (between the larynx and the chin) 80 percent of the time. It is found at the level of the cartilage in about 15 percent, and below the cartilage about 5 percent of the time, especially in partial suspension.

Partial hanging may occur simply by leaning against the noose secured to a chair, a door knob, the leg of a table, a bedpost or rail, or the handrail of a staircase -- each of these being slightly higher than the position of the head. The deceased may be in a kneeling position, or he/she may simply fall back or forward and lie prone with only the face and chest off the ground.

Even in a partial suspension, the victim’s face will show the classic signs of strangulation: cyanosis, presence of petechiae, and the tongue may protrude. Also (and this is very important), obstruction of venous drainage of the brain via occlusion of the internal jugular veins leads to cerebral edema and then cerebral ischemia.

In addition to the above symptoms, other things may also be found:

• Slipping of the ligature during suspension is not uncommon, and the tendency is for it to slip upwards, being partially limited by the laryngeal prominence and then finally by the jaws. This upward movement may produce a double impression of the ligature, the lower mark usually being superficial and connected by fine abrasions, caused by the slipping ligature, to the mark made by the ligature in its final position.
• Saliva may be found dribbling from the angle of the mouth when the head is drooping forward. This is due to the increased salivation before death due to the stimulation of the salivary glands by the ligature. Slight hemorrhage or bloody froth is sometimes seen at the mouth and nostrils, and some blood may be found under the head.
• Spontaneous relaxation of sphincters is a common result of hanging and urine and feces will be evacuated.
• If the body is suspended for some time, post-mortem hypostasis (swelling) can be seen in the legs, feet, forearms, and hands.

While some of these symptoms are not exclusively associated with hanging, they are very common when death occurs because of hanging or other types of ligature strangulation. What the investigator has to do is determine exactly how the ligature caused the death.
.

 

[Bonnette]

...While some of these symptoms are not exclusively associated with hanging, they are very common when death occurs because of hanging or other types of ligature strangulation. What the investigator has to do is determine exactly how the ligature caused the death.

Yes. And thereby *hangs* the tale. Authorities disagree about autopsy results all the time, especially in cases where asphyxia has occurred, but the hyoid bone is intact.

 

[otg]

Yes. And therein *hangs* the tail. Authorities disagree about autopsy results all the time, especially in cases where asphyxia has occurred, but the hyoid bone is intact.

This one is especially challenging because of all the different things that were going on at the same time. The reason I think Dr. Rorke was wrong is because she was looking only at the injuries to the brain from the head blow. I'll go into that in another post.

Also, I believe it's fairly unusual for a child's hyoid bone to be broken because it is still somewhat soft and flexible. The hyoid is more likely to be broken in manual strangulation due to the direct pressure.
.

 

[Bonnette]

Also, I believe it's fairly unusual for a child's hyoid bone to be broken because it is still somewhat soft and flexible. The hyoid is more likely to be broken in manual strangulation due to the direct pressure.

Yes, quite right.

 

[OpenMind4U]

This one is especially challenging because of all the different things that were going on at the same time. The reason I think Dr. Rorke was wrong is because she was looking only at the injuries to the brain from the head blow. I'll go into that in another post.

Also, I believe it's fairly unusual for a child's hyoid bone to be broken because it is still somewhat soft and flexible. The hyoid is more likely to be broken in manual strangulation due to the direct pressure.
.

otg, I really-really hope you're right! Couldn't wait to read your post in regards of this 90 minutes which changed the 'world' of the JBR murder 'meaning' and 'staging'....

 

[txsvicki]

Sorry- I didn't pick up on the part about BlueCrab's old post.
I think if her hands were swollen the coroner would have mentioned it. Of course, it is possible he failed to do so, but as there were no ligature marks on her wrists, I can't think of why they would be swollen (as far as a PRE-death cause).
The white ligature mark had to have been made after her heart stopped beating, during the blanching phase of livor mortis. Then, after livor became fixed, the white mark remained even though the cord had been removed by the coroner. I think the total evidence of the way the cord was made right on her neck, right in front of the wineceller door next to the paint tote, combined with the anterior urine stains on her clothing, bruise on her rear shoulder- if we look at all of it together, it tells us very simply two things- that she died right there on the floor just outside the wineceller, she was strangled right there, while lying on her stomach. And that she was then placed in the wineceller on her back on top of the white blanket (which had been placed there before the body was moved in there) within 20 minutes or so of her death (before her blood settled). Moving her after that would have made a second livor pattern. There was only one. But JR could still have moved her from deeper in the WC to a position closer to the door the next morning during his "disappearance" because by then livor was fixed.

Do you think the white blanching on the neck is from her shirt pressing there within those twenty minutes just as the marks from the waistband of panties and longjohns? I will read and think I understand blanching then later realize I don't completely understand. I think I'm wondering if there has to be quite a bit of pressure from clothing to make a white blanched mark or just the regular amount of pressure from laying on wrinkles and seams.

 

[OpenMind4U]

otg, just in addition to your post on 'partial suspension', especially on 'slipping of ligature'....

Post-mortem appearances. Slipping of ligature during suspension: Frequently, only the portion adjacent to the knot moves. There is tendency for the ligature to move upwards, this being limited by the jaws. The upward movement may produce double impression of ligature. The lower mark is usually very superficial and is connected by fine abrasions, caused by slipping ligature, to the mark made by ligature in its final position.

My question remains: if we're dealing w/ partal suspension here then would it leave the white line??!!!....JMO

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103&Itemid=120

 

[midwest mama]

otg, just in addition to your post on 'partial suspension', especially on 'slipping of ligature'....



My question remains: if we're dealing w/ partal suspension here then would it leave the white line??!!!....JMO

http://forensicpathologyonline.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=103&Itemid=120

Checked out the above link and found this sentence from the Ligature Mark section interesting:

"A loop made of soft material, e.g., towel, scarf, etc. may not leave a ligature mark, but the knot may produce an abrasion due to it's firmness."

With JB's head found tipped to the right, this might be in keeping with the 'rust colored abrasion' found on her lower left neck, with the purple line and "blanched" line area off to the side of it? Could the unusual lower neck abrasion have been from a knot tied into a fabric that was put around her neck? And maybe NOT from someone grabbing her shirt and twisting it?

Then the scarf (?) was removed after death, leaving the white mark?

Patsy, iirc, testified that there was a black and red scarf laying on something that she thought they either gave as gifts, which were like Johns, or was John's? And didn't John lay a scarf in her casket that he said JB gave to him?

And weren't there black and red fibers found on JB's body, yes, consistent with Patsy's jacket, but were they checked out against that black and red scarf that was seen laying nearby somewhere in the basement?

Will have to check the evidence lists again to see if there is any mention of a scarf.

 

[thenagain]

oh hallo. I just posted the following on the member's theories thread by accident:

Hello. I am new here. I posted this idea recently on another forum, but got accused of working for Lin Wood when what I hoped for was genuine discussion of the topic. I noticed also this was a topic of conversation on here but can't find the thread again

I think the evidence which will exonerate the Ramsey's as having staged a cover up for an accidental head injury and exonerate them from any part in the crime is the use of a weapon of torture which I believe was used by a possible paedophile gang who set up a live filming or who took film of the incident in which Jonbenet was strangled and who maybe profited by a pay per view resource or who set the crime up in this way to buy himself time to be away from the crime scene when the death occurred:

the string around Jonbenet's neck was tied in a double knot and then there were 17 inches of string and on the other end was part of a paintbrush. Jonbenet's genitals were also seen to have been stabbed by the other part of the paintbrush.

The string was not tied completely tightly around the neck but with some leeway of some milimetres.

I believe the noose was placed around her neck with the paintbrush fully intact then the paintbrush was pulled down her back and placed between her legs so the paintbrush is then at the front of her body with the wooden brush across her thighs causing her head to be raised from the ground or whatever she was placed on.

If she tries to put her head down: the noose cuts into her neck. If she strains which no doubt she did the noose tightens against the opposing side to where it is being pulled, but I believe she strained in such a way as to break the paintbrush causing it to injure her genital area and for the broken piece to spring up behind her which is still attacked to the noose.

I believe it is possible that Burke found her in this condition and tried to cut her loose and to wipe her wound, but was "caught" by an intruder known to the Ramsey family who pulled a knife and inflicted a blow to the child's head (though this could have happened prior.)

I think it is possible Burke was threatened to shut up.

It is possible the strangulation torture occured on a raised beam or platform and that when Jonbenet strained it caused her to fall and snap the paintbrush causing the gential injury and the blow to the head.

There is a secondary strangulation mark lower on the neck. We do not know how this was caused.

i do not believe the Ramseys would set up such a torture ordeal as this one for any reason whatsoever. if the object of torture was designed to buy time away from the time of death then the Ramsey's stood to gain nothing from this and I do not believe they would do this for any reason.

===

If the blow to her head knocked her out and then the device was attached she was safe so long as she wasn't moving - if she was on her back then she wouldn't be able to attempt to sit up. She may have realised this if the other neck injury had acted as a warning but if she heard people looking for her she may have tried to let them know she was there and would have been very panicked or she may have seen the perpetrator and began to struggle against the device and this caused her to break the paintbrush bleed on things and then the perp has used John's shirt to wipe the blood with to incriminate him.

Having thought about it some more i realise she was not on a raised platform but have left the quote as it stands.

Maybe it is more relevant on this thread.

 

[Bonnette]

Patsy, iirc, testified that there was a black and red scarf laying on something that she thought they either gave as gifts, which were like Johns, or was John's? And didn't John lay a scarf in her casket that he said JB gave to him?

And weren't there black and red fibers found on JB's body, yes, consistent with Patsy's jacket, but were they checked out against that black and red scarf that was seen laying nearby somewhere in the basement?

Will have to check the evidence lists again to see if there is any mention of a scarf.

The scarf was mentioned in The Police Files...iirc, it was lying on top of a cabinet and PR claimed not to recognize it (Steve Thomas had shown her a picture of it, and she drew one of her many blanks).

I am not aware of any further mention of that scarf, in terms of testing for fiber evidence or anything else. Hmmmm...

 

[OpenMind4U]

The scarf was mentioned in The Police Files...iirc, it was lying on top of a cabinet and PR claimed not to recognize it (Steve Thomas had shown her a picture of it, and she drew one of her many blanks).

I am not aware of any further mention of that scarf, in terms of testing for fiber evidence or anything else. Hmmmm...

You and MM are correct. The scarf was laying on the bar area on the first floor, not in the basement. JR gives LE the roll of photo pictures made by him on Christmas day. To complete the roll - JR just made few meaningless shots, including the shot of the wet bar with the scarf on it!

Of course, PR doesn't recognize it (what else is new?)....

However, IMO, I do believe that this white line was there from the partal hanging but not from the slippage of the partal hanging. IMO, the white line left by another rope or cord. If true then question is: which strangulation has cause the death? The one which left the white line or another one which we all saw on autopsy photo...??.....

JMO

 

[midwest mama]

You and MM are correct. The scarf was laying on the bar area on the first floor, not in the basement. JR gives LE the roll of photo pictures made by him on Christmas day. To complete the roll - JR just made few meaningless shots, including the shot of the wet bar with the scarf on it!

Of course, PR doesn't recognize it (what else is new?)....

However, IMO, I do believe that this white line was there from the partal hanging but not from the slippage of the partal hanging. IMO, the white line left by another rope or cord. If true then question is: which strangulation has cause the death? The one which left the white line or another one which we all saw on autopsy photo...??.....

JMO[/Q"UOTE]

Here's an interesting piece from a post on the JB Thread called "Why A Scarf?". I'm going back over to that thread to do some more reading and maybe post in my thoughts there. From post #19, Camper, in July 2005:

What would a silk scarf be doing lying in that location, particularly IF IF it were a recently purchased beautiful silk one? This should be easily checked NOW, black and red scarf makes it even. MORE interesting

If I recall there were unidentified black and red vibres found on her body, am I right? Double check that one.

I don't think 'WE' ever saw those pictures did 'WE'?

To those posters who are not up to speed on an EA device, BlueCrab graciously explained how those devices work. Often a soft material is placed around the neck to soften the stress of the 'strangulation/air restriction' part of the activity with rope on top of the fabric.

Dr. Henree Ree missed this part of the caze.

IF IF the scarf that is 'tucked' around JonBenet in her casket is the same scarf that was lying on the counter, this my fellow posters could in fact be 'the' smoking gun of the case.

PR said she had never seen the scarf before, yet talks of a scarf in DOI that was 'recently' purchased by JR.

 

[thenagain]

You and MM are correct. The scarf was laying on the bar area on the first floor, not in the basement. JR gives LE the roll of photo pictures made by him on Christmas day. To complete the roll - JR just made few meaningless shots, including the shot of the wet bar with the scarf on it!

Of course, PR doesn't recognize it (what else is new?)....

However, IMO, I do believe that this white line was there from the partal hanging but not from the slippage of the partal hanging. IMO, the white line left by another rope or cord. If true then question is: which strangulation has cause the death? The one which left the white line or another one which we all saw on autopsy photo...??.....

JMO[/Q"UOTE]

Here's an interesting piece from a post on the JB Thread called "Why A Scarf?". I'm going back over to that thread to do some more reading and maybe post in my thoughts there. From post #19, Camper, in July 2005:

What would a silk scarf be doing lying in that location, particularly IF IF it were a recently purchased beautiful silk one? This should be easily checked NOW, black and red scarf makes it even. MORE interesting

If I recall there were unidentified black and red vibres found on her body, am I right? Double check that one.

I don't think 'WE' ever saw those pictures did 'WE'?

To those posters who are not up to speed on an EA device, BlueCrab graciously explained how those devices work. Often a soft material is placed around the neck to soften the stress of the 'strangulation/air restriction' part of the activity with rope on top of the fabric.

Dr. Henree Ree missed this part of the caze.

IF IF the scarf that is 'tucked' around JonBenet in her casket is the same scarf that was lying on the counter, this my fellow posters could in fact be 'the' smoking gun of the case.

PR said she had never seen the scarf before, yet talks of a scarf in DOI that was 'recently' purchased by JR.

I think we need to sort one scarf out from another; when its cold it isn't uncommon to buy new scarves and its nice to have different ones to go with different outfits. I wonder about the pictures taken by John and if perhaps Jonbenet had a favourite or special scarf given to her for Christmas. I wonder about the scarf in the wet and if it was deliberately put there - or if it was wet because someone had been out in sleet or snow which had caught on the scarf and melted off after. I wonder if John was wondering about these things.

Yes, I have heard it is common in suicides to place a folded towel or the like under the rope - especially in prisons; to make it easier.

I wonder if an instrument of torture/death was used with the paintbrush across the thighs if the/a scarf were also placed under this and hence the fibres around the edges of the child's underwear.

The loops around the wrists were placed over the sleeves of clothing which again would have gone some way to preventing markings on the skin and to avoid knowledge of the procedure being discovered: just as the part of the paintbrush was removed from the scene at some point - again hiding the true role of the wooden stick/ paintbrish handle.

I wonder whose idea it was to bury the scarf as well. It can be terrible deciding what to do and what is right or better in the circumstances of organising a funeral

 

[txsvicki]

If the scarf on the wetbar was silk then it couldn't be mistaken for the jacket and red sweater polyester and acrylic fibers, and i believe the scarf John put into the casket was said to have been from Scotland and bought for him by his daughter. Maybe an expensive wool? Patsy and John probably only had real silk and wool scarves but maybe polyester blend for the kids.