Kyron Horman Discussion Thread 2020 - 2022

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I haven't read the book. My thought on the witnesses - LE could not vet the sightings in a way that would stand up under court testimony. I could play devils advocate and go further, but won't.

Desiree believes the witnesses are correct, which she states in her book. She likely also has many other pieces we aren't privy too, which IMO, point to Terri. Her frustration has been evident for years, can't say I blame her.

MCSO statement on 6/4/22 - Multnomah Co. Sheriff's Office news
I wonder if eye witnesses could be wrong about if Kyron was going in the car to leave school on that day. Could people wanting to find him have convinced themselves he left with Terri? When something happens to a kid it usually is a parent and most people are horrified but relieved if the perpetrator is a family member and not a stranger abducting random kids.
Some of her behavior is off maybe. It could also just seem that way because she wasn’t expecting to explain her every movement. Why would she have hurt her stepson after bringing him to school? If we know he got to school what would make her harm him?
 
Hypothetical Situation here:

If you were on a jury would you likely convict Terri on Kyron's disappearance if beyond a reasonable doubt that Terri is responsible? Or would you need that one piece of evidence that ties her to Kyron missing that hasn't been found yet.

Or

Would you say, there needs to be much more evidence where as Terri is Not Guilty and Kyron just left with a complete stranger? Was Terri watching him the whole time?

For me, in my heart and mind I would want to convict Terri. But if I was sitting on a jury, I don't think I could because a judges' instructions on reasonable doubt would say, we need some type of forensic evidence linking Terri to taking Kyle that day, and we don't have that, This is the most painful thing about this case.

Satch
 
I wonder if eye witnesses could be wrong about if Kyron was going in the car to leave school on that day. Could people wanting to find him have convinced themselves he left with Terri? When something happens to a kid it usually is a parent and most people are horrified but relieved if the perpetrator is a family member and not a stranger abducting random kids.
Some of her behavior is off maybe. It could also just seem that way because she wasn’t expecting to explain her every movement. Why would she have hurt her stepson after bringing him to school? If we know he got to school what would make her harm him?
I guess it would depend on how reliable the witnesses were, if they sounded sure they saw him leave with her. Did they state from day 1 he left with her, or have they changed their story over the years? That sort of thing.
 
I wonder if eye witnesses could be wrong about if Kyron was going in the car to leave school on that day. Could people wanting to find him have convinced themselves he left with Terri? When something happens to a kid it usually is a parent and most people are horrified but relieved if the perpetrator is a family member and not a stranger abducting random kids.
Some of her behavior is off maybe. It could also just seem that way because she wasn’t expecting to explain her every movement. Why would she have hurt her stepson after bringing him to school? If we know he got to school what would make her harm him?
Yeah, these witnesses being revealed after a decade, and filtered through a book rather than LE does raise red flags. Also, if they had told these stories back in 2010, the police investigation would have looked very different.

Honestly, I don't think Terri did it, based on the facts that have been made public. Maybe the police sits on a throve of unpublished evidence that damns her, but I think if that was the case they would have arrested her by now. She gave a timeline of her actions that day and not only was she able to support pretty much all of it with evidence, it leaves no room to any serious scenario that involves her in the disappearance.

Same goes for her friend. The close contact and burner phones would have been suspicious - had they occurred before Kyron went missing. Instead they happened after Terri had been painted as a suspect, which honestly speaks against Dede's involvement. And similarly, her abscence from lunch on the day of the abduction is one of those things that sounds bad until you realize that her car was parked there the whole time and there was no phone contact between Terri and Dede.

I don't doubt that the police think Terri did it - I suspect they got some early sightings of a white truck at Sauvee Island and then the ping from the tower that served said island (as well as the surrounding countryside) cemented the idea and caused tunnel vision - but they obviously have nothing on her. Probably because there's nothing to have.
 
Yeah, these witnesses being revealed after a decade, and filtered through a book rather than LE does raise red flags. Also, if they had told these stories back in 2010, the police investigation would have looked very different.

Honestly, I don't think Terri did it, based on the facts that have been made public. Maybe the police sits on a throve of unpublished evidence that damns her, but I think if that was the case they would have arrested her by now. She gave a timeline of her actions that day and not only was she able to support pretty much all of it with evidence, it leaves no room to any serious scenario that involves her in the disappearance.

Same goes for her friend. The close contact and burner phones would have been suspicious - had they occurred before Kyron went missing. Instead they happened after Terri had been painted as a suspect, which honestly speaks against Dede's involvement. And similarly, her abscence from lunch on the day of the abduction is one of those things that sounds bad until you realize that her car was parked there the whole time and there was no phone contact between Terri and Dede.

I don't doubt that the police think Terri did it - I suspect they got some early sightings of a white truck at Sauvee Island and then the ping from the tower that served said island (as well as the surrounding countryside) cemented the idea and caused tunnel vision - but they obviously have nothing on her. Probably because there's nothing to have.
Terri gave up her baby in order to avoid a child custody evaluation which would have explored what happened with Kyron. Over the years people have attempted to explain that away. As a family law attorney, that clinched it for me.

But the rest of the potential evidence is compelling, to me:

She was the last verified person to see Kyron. (There was a child who saw Kyron but isn’t sure of the time).
She told Kyron’s teacher that he had an appt. that day but he did not. His appt. was set for the following Friday.

She drove with a sick baby, who had a painful earache, on a meandering trip through densely forested roads on the day Kyron went missing, after she supposedly dropped him off. She drove to a pharmacy for ear medication for her baby. However, that pharmacy was not the closest one. It was miles away. And while she did go into that pharmacy, she ended up getting the prescription at the one closer to her home. So why the trip?

She also left her baby in the truck when she went into the first pharmacy. She would probably say alone. I say she left the baby with Kyron.

After the pharmacy trip she drove for an hour and a half through that heavily forested area on country roads, to “soothe” her baby’s painful earache. And then she dropped her supposedly sick baby off at the daycare gym while she worked out.

She apparently wrote emails (that Kyron’s mom saw) that express how much she hated Kyron and that she blamed him for her marriage issues and for her son moving out and in with his grandparents.
Kyron acted differently in the summer before he went back to his dad’s and tearfully begged his mom to let him stay with her. IIRC Terri asked that Kyron be able to go live with his mom, as well. And Kaine said no.

According to LE, she tried to hire her gardener to kill Kaine, leading to him taking off with the baby, getting a restraining order and filing for divorce.

She failed one polygraph and walked out on the second. While the results aren’t admissible evidence, her demeanor and actions and statements during those examinations, are.

Is this enough to erase all reasonable doubt? Probably not without a body. I think this is only half of what info there is. But clearly the additional info isn’t enough either, as a grand jury failed to indict.

But it’s enough for me to conclude she killed Kyron.

Finally, being able to have reasonable doubt doesn’t mean she’s not guilty nor that there’s an alternate explanation. For me, it just means she covered her tracks well enough not to get caught.
 
I think they probably want some type of forensic evidence, which they apparently don't have at this point. What bothers me is there appears to be no pressure on Terry- she just goes on her merry way- and it appears she has gotten away with murder, which is what is making Desiree extremely upset. At this point it appears Terry committed the perfect crime.

Yes. Especially considering they have taken the matter to a grand jury, which did not indict.
 
Yeah, these witnesses being revealed after a decade, and filtered through a book rather than LE does raise red flags. Also, if they had told these stories back in 2010, the police investigation would have looked very different.

Honestly, I don't think Terri did it, based on the facts that have been made public. Maybe the police sits on a throve of unpublished evidence that damns her, but I think if that was the case they would have arrested her by now. She gave a timeline of her actions that day and not only was she able to support pretty much all of it with evidence, it leaves no room to any serious scenario that involves her in the disappearance.

Same goes for her friend. The close contact and burner phones would have been suspicious - had they occurred before Kyron went missing. Instead they happened after Terri had been painted as a suspect, which honestly speaks against Dede's involvement. And similarly, her abscence from lunch on the day of the abduction is one of those things that sounds bad until you realize that her car was parked there the whole time and there was no phone contact between Terri and Dede.

I don't doubt that the police think Terri did it - I suspect they got some early sightings of a white truck at Sauvee Island and then the ping from the tower that served said island (as well as the surrounding countryside) cemented the idea and caused tunnel vision - but they obviously have nothing on her. Probably because there's nothing to have.
I agree with all of this, especially "if they had told these stories back in 2010, the police investigation would have looked very different."

From day one, my experience has been that there are some people, folks wholly unconnected with this case and Kyron's family, who are heavily invested in what happened to Kyron, that they've been trying to influence it and insert themselves into it for personal gain or out of sheer hatred for T. Makes me wonder how many false tips have been called in anonymously in order to steer law enforcement in a certain direction, wasting time and resources, and jeopardizing the case's integrity. So for there now, instead of 12 years ago, to be witnesses claiming to have seen T walking out with Kyron is suspect.
Terri gave up her baby in order to avoid a child custody evaluation which would have explored what happened with Kyron. Over the years people have attempted to explain that away. As a family law attorney, that clinched it for me.

But the rest of the potential evidence is compelling, to me:

She was the last verified person to see Kyron. (There was a child who saw Kyron but isn’t sure of the time).
She told Kyron’s teacher that he had an appt. that day but he did not. His appt. was set for the following Friday.

She drove with a sick baby, who had a painful earache, on a meandering trip through densely forested roads on the day Kyron went missing, after she supposedly dropped him off. She drove to a pharmacy for ear medication for her baby. However, that pharmacy was not the closest one. It was miles away. And while she did go into that pharmacy, she ended up getting the prescription at the one closer to her home. So why the trip?

She also left her baby in the truck when she went into the first pharmacy. She would probably say alone. I say she left the baby with Kyron.

After the pharmacy trip she drove for an hour and a half through that heavily forested area on country roads, to “soothe” her baby’s painful earache. And then she dropped her supposedly sick baby off at the daycare gym while she worked out.

She apparently wrote emails (that Kyron’s mom saw) that express how much she hated Kyron and that she blamed him for her marriage issues and for her son moving out and in with his grandparents.
Kyron acted differently in the summer before he went back to his dad’s and tearfully begged his mom to let him stay with her. IIRC Terri asked that Kyron be able to go live with his mom, as well. And Kaine said no.

According to LE, she tried to hire her gardener to kill Kaine, leading to him taking off with the baby, getting a restraining order and filing for divorce.

She failed one polygraph and walked out on the second. While the results aren’t admissible evidence, her demeanor and actions and statements during those examinations, are.

Is this enough to erase all reasonable doubt? Probably not without a body. I think this is only half of what info there is. But clearly the additional info isn’t enough either, as a grand jury failed to indict.

But it’s enough for me to conclude she killed Kyron.

Finally, being able to have reasonable doubt doesn’t mean she’s not guilty nor that there’s an alternate explanation. For me, it just means she covered her tracks well enough not to get caught.

This is all circumstantial, isn't it? If we removed a missing child from the equation and focused solely on T's behavior, all I'd conclude is that she's a selfish and terrible person or mother, or plain old dumb. That doesn't make her a killer, just an inept parent who lacks good judgment.
 
Terri gave up her baby in order to avoid a child custody evaluation which would have explored what happened with Kyron. Over the years people have attempted to explain that away. As a family law attorney, that clinched it for me.

But the rest of the potential evidence is compelling, to me:

She was the last verified person to see Kyron. (There was a child who saw Kyron but isn’t sure of the time).
She told Kyron’s teacher that he had an appt. that day but he did not. His appt. was set for the following Friday.

She drove with a sick baby, who had a painful earache, on a meandering trip through densely forested roads on the day Kyron went missing, after she supposedly dropped him off. She drove to a pharmacy for ear medication for her baby. However, that pharmacy was not the closest one. It was miles away. And while she did go into that pharmacy, she ended up getting the prescription at the one closer to her home. So why the trip?

She also left her baby in the truck when she went into the first pharmacy. She would probably say alone. I say she left the baby with Kyron.

After the pharmacy trip she drove for an hour and a half through that heavily forested area on country roads, to “soothe” her baby’s painful earache. And then she dropped her supposedly sick baby off at the daycare gym while she worked out.

She apparently wrote emails (that Kyron’s mom saw) that express how much she hated Kyron and that she blamed him for her marriage issues and for her son moving out and in with his grandparents.
Kyron acted differently in the summer before he went back to his dad’s and tearfully begged his mom to let him stay with her. IIRC Terri asked that Kyron be able to go live with his mom, as well. And Kaine said no.

According to LE, she tried to hire her gardener to kill Kaine, leading to him taking off with the baby, getting a restraining order and filing for divorce.

She failed one polygraph and walked out on the second. While the results aren’t admissible evidence, her demeanor and actions and statements during those examinations, are.

Is this enough to erase all reasonable doubt? Probably not without a body. I think this is only half of what info there is. But clearly the additional info isn’t enough either, as a grand jury failed to indict.

But it’s enough for me to conclude she killed Kyron.

Finally, being able to have reasonable doubt doesn’t mean she’s not guilty nor that there’s an alternate explanation. For me, it just means she covered her tracks well enough not to get caught.
I don't find the custody matter compelling at all. As you say, it became entangled in the case of Kyron's disappearance, which meant she had to follow her lawyer's advice. But even disregarding that, she has been hounded by Kyron's biological mother and true crime enthusiasts. They've showed up at her house, they've contacted her place of employments, costing her jobs. And there's the police constantly hanging over her, making it clear they suspect her but never actually charging her. At this point, her life is a wreck. Perhaps she doesn't want that kind of life for her child.

Or perhaps she's a bad mother, who didn't want the hassle. I don't see how it indicates guilt, though.

As far as I know the first store she went to was Fred Meyer at NE Imbrie Dr, which is the closest to the school, a drive down NW Cornelius Pass Rd. That's where she got the 9:12 am-stamped receipt. The second was at SW Walker Rd, where they had the medicine she needed. I do believe it was the dry cleaners at the second Fred Meyer where she walked in without her daughter, but she had the baby with her in the store itself, as a witness testified to seeing her (and noted that the baby was fussy). If Kyron was in the truck, he would have been alone, and people would have been able to see him.

I've never understood what's weird about driving around to soothe a child's earache. There have been numerous parents testifying to doing this, even in this forum. And it explains the "suspicious" ping.

The emails would be compelling had anyone but Desiree read them. Kaine doesn't appear to have. And the emails released certainly don't qualify. I hate to say it, but I don't think Desiree is a credible source here. I think the released emails are the ones she read, she just read a lot more into them.

The gardener would also be more compelling had the sting actually succeeded. Now it's just kind of... there. Even if it was true (and I really don't think it passes the smell test), it means Terri wanted Kaine dead, not Kyron.

Polygraphs are bunk. I place as much value on that as I do astrology.

There's just nothing there. With a timeline as tight as this, there really needs to be some compelling evidence, yet there isn't.
 
Terri gave up her baby in order to avoid a child custody evaluation which would have explored what happened with Kyron. Over the years people have attempted to explain that away. As a family law attorney, that clinched it for me.

But the rest of the potential evidence is compelling, to me:

She was the last verified person to see Kyron. (There was a child who saw Kyron but isn’t sure of the time).
She told Kyron’s teacher that he had an appt. that day but he did not. His appt. was set for the following Friday.

She drove with a sick baby, who had a painful earache, on a meandering trip through densely forested roads on the day Kyron went missing, after she supposedly dropped him off. She drove to a pharmacy for ear medication for her baby. However, that pharmacy was not the closest one. It was miles away. And while she did go into that pharmacy, she ended up getting the prescription at the one closer to her home. So why the trip?

She also left her baby in the truck when she went into the first pharmacy. She would probably say alone. I say she left the baby with Kyron.

After the pharmacy trip she drove for an hour and a half through that heavily forested area on country roads, to “soothe” her baby’s painful earache. And then she dropped her supposedly sick baby off at the daycare gym while she worked out.

She apparently wrote emails (that Kyron’s mom saw) that express how much she hated Kyron and that she blamed him for her marriage issues and for her son moving out and in with his grandparents.
Kyron acted differently in the summer before he went back to his dad’s and tearfully begged his mom to let him stay with her. IIRC Terri asked that Kyron be able to go live with his mom, as well. And Kaine said no.

According to LE, she tried to hire her gardener to kill Kaine, leading to him taking off with the baby, getting a restraining order and filing for divorce.

She failed one polygraph and walked out on the second. While the results aren’t admissible evidence, her demeanor and actions and statements during those examinations, are.

Is this enough to erase all reasonable doubt? Probably not without a body. I think this is only half of what info there is. But clearly the additional info isn’t enough either, as a grand jury failed to indict.

But it’s enough for me to conclude she killed Kyron.

Finally, being able to have reasonable doubt doesn’t mean she’s not guilty nor that there’s an alternate explanation. For me, it just means she covered her tracks well enough not to get caught.
I don't recall reading a news article about leaving baby K in the truck at one of the grocery stores. One person interviewed stated she talked to Terri in Fred Meyer, with her daughter in her arms (see link). If you have an MSM link where it stated she left her daughter in the truck at one of the stores, I would love to add it to my case notes. TIA.

 
I believe the first time I personally read/heard that Terri was seen leaving the school with Kyron was in the book about his disappearance. I certainly don't recall it ever reading/hearing about it in MSM, or from any statements law enforcement gave.
When I read about it in the book, it made me wonder why, if that were the case and the witnesses were reliable, that wasn't enough to arrest Terri for something.
From day one, my experience has been that there are some people, folks wholly unconnected with this case and Kyron's family, who are heavily invested in what happened to Kyron, that they've been trying to influence it and insert themselves into it for personal gain or out of sheer hatred for T. Makes me wonder how many false tips have been called in anonymously in order to steer law enforcement in a certain direction, wasting time and resources, and jeopardizing the case's integrity. So for there now, instead of 12 years ago, to be witnesses claiming to have seen T walking out with Kyron is suspect.
RSBM

Alleykins, IMO, you are bringing up some great points here. I also do not recall this info in MSM or being corroborated from LE. I think this hatred directed at Terri has had enough negative consequences for the investigation that may not be obvious from our perspective. I 100% could see false tips being called in because that's the level many of these people have gone to, with stalking and harassment, etc. So from my perspective, this is all very important to consider and to not overlook, regardless of your opinion on what happened.

My opinion as an elementary educator in the Pacific Northwest who has worked extensively with kids Kyron's age is that I think Kyron wandered off and died of exposure. I am aware this is a controversial opinion, but it's what I think happened. The Pacific Northwest is so beautiful, but so vast and wild, and even treacherous, in ways that one might immediately understand, or perceive. It would NOT be hard for a 7 year old to get lost in even a small wooded area here. It would NOT be hard for searchers to miss remains or even an entire living child, because it is SO vast here. Also lots of natural predators and scavengers, rain, etc.

A 7 year old wandering out of a school is not something that should ever happen, and wouldn't under normal circumstances, but with the science fair...yeah, I think it's what happened.
 
I agree with all of this, especially "if they had told these stories back in 2010, the police investigation would have looked very different."

From day one, my experience has been that there are some people, folks wholly unconnected with this case and Kyron's family, who are heavily invested in what happened to Kyron, that they've been trying to influence it and insert themselves into it for personal gain or out of sheer hatred for T. Makes me wonder how many false tips have been called in anonymously in order to steer law enforcement in a certain direction, wasting time and resources, and jeopardizing the case's integrity. So for there now, instead of 12 years ago, to be witnesses claiming to have seen T walking out with Kyron is suspect.


This is all circumstantial, isn't it? If we removed a missing child from the equation and focused solely on T's behavior, all I'd conclude is that she's a selfish and terrible person or mother, or plain old dumb. That doesn't make her a killer, just an inept parent who lacks good judgment.
Most evidence used to convict is circumstantial. Direct evidence is an eye witness account of the crime. Every else, including biological forensics, is actually, circumstantial.

Regardless, circumstantial evidence is to be considered with the same weight as direct evidence. Every jury instruction states as much.

But no. It doesn’t make her just a bad parent. Because we have to look at three things when evaluating her behavior:

1. Her historical behavior as a parent to her child.
2. The timing of her behavior.
3. Human nature.

As to her historical behavior, TH was known to be obsessed with her baby. To the point that she took and posted a photo of the baby with Kyron’s class, on Kyron’s birthday, with Kyron not even in it. She was known to dote on the baby. There is zero evidence she ever neglected her in any manner.

As to the timing, we can’t examine her behavior in a vacuum. The timing and context must be examined in conjunction with the behavior. That’s how sense is made out of anything. And the timing is that she SUDDENLY left her baby alone in the car, while going to an out of the way pharmacy she never used before, she on that very day, decided to take a long car trip in the woods when he baby was sick, supposedly to soothe the child, and then right after she dumped said sick child in a gym daycare. And finally, after fighting long and hard for her child, she suddenly decided to give up custody and rights to see her child.

Because the fact is she fought hard for custody before she was ordered to undergo a child custody evaluation. When she was told she could not fail to participate and still have custody or even access, for the most part, she dropped out of the litigation. She knew she would have to answer questions about Kyron’s case and the plot to kill her husband in the context of the evaluation. And if she didn’t- it would be used against her in the custody case (which is possible because it was a psych evaluation in the context of child custody case).

This brings us to the third part- human nature. As a family law attorney I can tell you that human nature is to fight for one’s children. Even if you don’t love them. Think of all the parents who fought for custody of their kids and then tortured them to death.

Custody of one’s kids is a power and retribution issue for many.

The people who don’t fight for their kids are those too dysfunctional to do so or who never showed interest in their kids to begin with.

That’s my experience, 20 years in the business.
 
I don't find the custody matter compelling at all. As you say, it became entangled in the case of Kyron's disappearance, which meant she had to follow her lawyer's advice. But even disregarding that, she has been hounded by Kyron's biological mother and true crime enthusiasts. They've showed up at her house, they've contacted her place of employments, costing her jobs. And there's the police constantly hanging over her, making it clear they suspect her but never actually charging her. At this point, her life is a wreck. Perhaps she doesn't want that kind of life for her child.

Or perhaps she's a bad mother, who didn't want the hassle. I don't see how it indicates guilt, though.

As far as I know the first store she went to was Fred Meyer at NE Imbrie Dr, which is the closest to the school, a drive down NW Cornelius Pass Rd. That's where she got the 9:12 am-stamped receipt. The second was at SW Walker Rd, where they had the medicine she needed. I do believe it was the dry cleaners at the second Fred Meyer where she walked in without her daughter, but she had the baby with her in the store itself, as a witness testified to seeing her (and noted that the baby was fussy). If Kyron was in the truck, he would have been alone, and people would have been able to see him.

I've never understood what's weird about driving around to soothe a child's earache. There have been numerous parents testifying to doing this, even in this forum. And it explains the "suspicious" ping.

The emails would be compelling had anyone but Desiree read them. Kaine doesn't appear to have. And the emails released certainly don't qualify. I hate to say it, but I don't think Desiree is a credible source here. I think the released emails are the ones she read, she just read a lot more into them.

The gardener would also be more compelling had the sting actually succeeded. Now it's just kind of... there. Even if it was true (and I really don't think it passes the smell test), it means Terri wanted Kaine dead, not Kyron.

Polygraphs are bunk. I place as much value on that as I do astrology.

There's just nothing there. With a timeline as tight as this, there really needs to be some compelling evidence, yet there isn't.
It is your opinion that there’s nothing there. IMO,LE, Kaine and Desiree have been on the same track all this time, for a good reason.

As to her behavior in the custody case, I know of no parent who truly loved their child who would give up their child on the advice of counsel, for fear of incriminating themselves in a case in which they are innocent. She did not have to follow her criminal law attorney’s advice. That’s not a law, you know. I’d say 70% or more of clients don’t, when it comes to at least something emotional.
 
As to the timing, we can’t examine her behavior in a vacuum. The timing and context must be examined in conjunction with the behavior. That’s how sense is made out of anything. And the timing is that she SUDDENLY left her baby alone in the car, while going to an out of the way pharmacy she never used before, she on that very day, decided to take a long car trip in the woods when he baby was sick, supposedly to soothe the child, and then right after she dumped said sick child in a gym daycare.

But the only place she left the baby in the car (according to testimonies) was the dry cleaners at the second Fred Meyer, where she was just in and out. In the store itself she had the baby with her. Also, none of the stores were out of the way, and I've never seen that she hadn't used the store before (which one, Imbrie Dr or Walker Rd?)

It's easy to make things sound suspicious in the telling, but the facts themselves aren't.

* She left the school at 8:45 to drive down to Beaverton for errands and medicine for the baby.
* Around 9-9:12 she was at the first (and closest) Fred Meyer, didn't find the medicine, bought a coffee. Google maps gives 10 minutes for the trip between school and store.
* Between 9:30 and 10 she's driven a few miles southeast to the other Fred Meyer, where she gets the medicine and talks to an acquaintance. She leaves the dry cleaning. Google maps gives 9 minutes for the trip between first and second Fred Meyer.
* After a short drive northwards to a craft store (ca 10:10, Google maps gives 6 minutes from second FM to craft store), she gives the baby medicine and continues driving north to the rural roads to soothe the baby.
* After an hour or so, the baby is calm enough that she feels she can go to the gym and get a bit of a workout. She arrives at 11:39.
* The brief workout done, she takes the baby home and remains there until Kaine comes back and they go to meet Kyron at the bus.

All of this is what she told the police, and they confirmed her at every location. I just really don't see anything here that's weird or suspicious.
It is your opinion that there’s nothing there. IMO,LE, Kaine and Desiree have been on the same track all this time, for a good reason.

As to her behavior in the custody case, I know of no parent who truly loved their child who would give up their child on the advice of counsel, for fear of incriminating themselves in a case in which they are innocent. She did not have to follow her criminal law attorney’s advice. That’s not a law, you know. I’d say 70% or more of clients don’t, when it comes to at least something emotional.
Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where strangers harass her at her home? At school functions?

Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where she couldn't provide for her because she would be unable to hold down a job? Due to true crime fanatics making her unemployable?

Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where her custody battle might help the police railroad her into prison? The police that have left her in legal limbo for twelve years, trying to ensnare her in sting operations. Not much room for parenting in prison.

You know, from my perspective, it seems like Terri is a bit more unselfish than that. She'd rather have her child grow up in normalcy away from her than in a chaotic, uncertain life with her.
 
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I don't recall reading a news article about leaving baby K in the truck at one of the grocery stores. One person interviewed stated she talked to Terri in Fred Meyer, with her daughter in her arms (see link). If you have an MSM link where it stated she left her daughter in the truck at one of the stores, I would love to add it to my case notes. TIA.

It will take me a while to find. She went to two Fred Meyer’s stores that day. Not one. The second one I believe was Beaverton where someone she knew saw her and had an uncharacteristically long encounter with her, despite the sick baby on her hip, and during which TH made sure to show a photo of Kyron at the school fair with his project. A photo she made sure to post on FB that day as well, before Kyron was due home.

In any event, no baby was seen. So I am surmising that she left the baby in the truck.
 
But the only place she left the baby in the car (according to testimonies) was the dry cleaners at the second Fred Meyer, where she was just in and out. In the store itself she had the baby with her. Also, none of the stores were out of the way, and I've never seen that she hadn't used the store before (which one, Imbrie Dr or Walker Rd?)

It's easy to make things sound suspicious in the telling, but the facts themselves aren't.

* She left the school at 8:45 to drive down to Beaverton for errands and medicine for the baby.
* Around 9-9:12 she was at the first (and closest) Fred Meyer, didn't find the medicine, bought a coffee. Google maps gives 10 minutes for the trip between school and store.
* Between 9:30 and 10 she's driven a few miles southeast to the other Fred Meyer, where she gets the medicine and talks to an acquaintance. She leaves the dry cleaning. Google maps gives 9 minutes for the trip between first and second Fred Meyer.
* After a short drive northwards to a craft store (ca 10:10, Google maps gives 6 minutes from second FM to craft store), she gives the baby medicine and continues driving north to the rural roads to soothe the baby.
* After an hour or so, the baby is calm enough that she feels she can go to the gym and get a bit of a workout. She arrives at 11:39.
* The brief workout done, she takes the baby home and remains there until Kaine comes back and they go to meet Kyron at the bus.

All of this is what she told the police, and they confirmed her at every location. I just really don't see anything here that's weird or suspicious.

Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where strangers harass her at her home? At school functions?

Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where she couldn't provide for her because she would be unable to hold down a job? Due to true crime fanatics making her unemployable?

Would a parent who truly loved her child place her in a situation where her custody battle might help the police railroad her into prison? The police that have left her in legal limbo for twelve years, trying to ensnare her in sting operations. Not much room for parenting in prison.

You know, from my perspective, it seems like Terri is a bit more unselfish than that. She'd rather have her child grow up in normalcy away from her than in a chaotic, uncertain life with her.

Not much room for parenting where she is now. She hasn’t seen her daughter in nine years or so.

As to the rest, again, there’s a good reason LE and Kyron’s parents have had TH in their sites for all these years. And we have to remember, it wasn’t just one LE agency involved in investigating the disappearance, leading to possible tunnel vision:

“More than a dozen law enforcement agencies - with the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office and the Multnomah County District Attorney's Office at the lead - including every single police department in the metro region as well as numerous federal departments including the FBI and the DEA have been involved.”

And it was six and half years after the disappearance and the involvement of all those agencies, that a grand jury was summoned to see if there could be an indictment.

So, IMO, all those agencies have a pretty good inclination as to what happened. And there is all sorts of evidence we do not know about.

Unfortunately, without a body or some decent forensics, it is clearly not enough.
 
Not much room for parenting where she is now. She hasn’t seen her daughter in nine years or so.

As to the rest, again, there’s a good reason LE and Kyron’s parents have had TH in their sites for all these years. And we have to remember, it wasn’t just one LE agency involved in investigating the disappearance, leading to possible tunnel vision:

“More than a dozen law enforcement agencies - with the Multnomah County Sheriff's Office and the Multnomah County District Attorney's Office at the lead - including every single police department in the metro region as well as numerous federal departments including the FBI and the DEA have been involved.”

And it was six and half years after the disappearance and the involvement of all those agencies, that a grand jury was summoned to see if there could be an indictment.

So, IMO, all those agencies have a pretty good inclination as to what happened. And there is all sorts of evidence we do not know about.

Unfortunately, without a body or some decent forensics, it is clearly not enough.
I mean, yeah, that's the point. Until the police clears her, she's stuck in limbo. She can go against her lawyer's wishes and risk being railroaded, or keep out of it, hoping more competent investigators look into the case at one point. It's not an enviable position.

As for the great number of parties involved, it's one thing to assist with the investigation, another to lead it. Has the FBI or the DEA said publicly they agree with the MCSO's choice of suspect? Would they even be in a position to have an opinion?

You know, this reminds me of Brittanee Drexel. The FBI publicly declared a young man as a suspect based on the word of a prison snitch, while the family of the victim claimed there was plenty of evidence against him that hadn't been made public. If you checked forums, including this one, the case was treated as essentially solved, and as the years went by without the suspect being charged, it was called a travesty of justice. Then, just this year, a completely unrelated man confessed and led police to the body. So the FBI were wrong and there was no secret evidence.

If a grand jury (who would "indict a ham sandwich"), after hearing hundreds of testimonies and seeing the evidence, including the hypothetical "hidden evidence", still hasn't indicted twelve years later? I'd say the case is flimsy at best.
 
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Ok. So Terri gave up her child not because she didn't want to be questioned, but because she was a bad mother who didn't love or want her child in the first place? MO is actually that both of those things are true, she was a bad mother who didn't want to be questioned because she was guilty.

And if she was a bad mother, that says something about her character. Character doesn't say everything about a case, but it says something.

Can anyyone cite a case (and yes I know saying "can anyone cite a case" to we wsers is like saying GO! Have fun!) where a parent INNOCENT of a disappearance/death they were suspected of, gave up custody of a very young child because they thought they MIGHT go to prison? They thought they or their child MIGHT be harrassed in the future? They thought they MIGHT not be able to earn a good living? I'm very interested to hear about those folks.

It's interesting that Terri giving up her child is being minimized. Giving up a child, who was what, 18mos.? two? is a MAJOR, LIFE ALTERING event no matter how you look at it, whether it's in the context of a crime or not. And even if it could be justified, people who give up custody for good reason don't give up any contact, as Terri has done. She had opportunities for different kinds of contact, and she did not take advantage of them.

Terri was putting herself first, protecting herself, which she has a legal right to do. But we know what is legal is not always the same as what is ethical or moral. If she was innocent, she was in good hands, with the outstanding attorney in her court, who had gotten many clients acquitted or reduced sentences. If she was inncocent , she had her attorney, and the truth, and right, and legality on her side. And yes, sometimes innocent people are convicted, but Terri ain't one of them. MO

I also find the attempt to distract from Terri herself interesting. It's LE, and false witnessess and strangers who want to insert themselves into the case who are the problem, not Terri. >S

<modsnip>
IMO
 
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