Kyron's General Discussion Thread for 2012-13

[gitana1]

I've always wondered if TH was protecting her son somehow. The only reason I can think of for her to give up her daughter is if she was protecting her son. Maybe his friends? had something to do with it? Maybe he had information and she didn't want him involved? Thought she would protect him if she said nothing?

I wish I knew. Kyron, may the Angels hold your hand until you are found.

There is zero information to indicate that TH's minor son had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance. he did not live with her and was school-aged at the time.

If DeDe hadn't even communicated with Terri since March of 2010, why did LE make any connection between her and Terri in this case at all? Where did her name come from in the first place? I wouldn't expect any of my friends whom I didn't speak to for 4 months to pop up suddenly in a criminal case I was being investigated for if there wasn't some tangible sort of link tying my friend to me. I do remember her on facebook near the beginning but why her in particular? Any of her friends could have been at home near the school that day too. JMO

Astute observation. LE must have had something to link DS to TH at the time.

There isnt anything Houze can say or do to rehab TH in the court of public opinion. BUT she convicted herself-she chose not to participate in any discovery that would cross the criminal investigation. SHE chose to bail on her child to save herself. She is living her life praying that Kyron isnt found so that she can wait out the world as a woman who is not inside of jail. IMO.

Now that is heinous. I am trying to figure out the long term strategy here...is she trying to find a way to get out of the trap she put herself in? Is she sick of living a life under cover? 'Cause we know this isnt about the baby now toddler.

Why now? Does someone feel fairly comfortable anything of forensic value ceases to exist, COD will never be conclusive? Or perhaps even that Kyron is never going to be found? So why live like a mushroom any longer?

ITA with everything you said Ami.

I think that sadly, after DS began talking, both sides believed there may be a GJ indictment. There was not and this has empowered TH to try to gain more information about the case against her and to try to regain some rights to her daughter. She feels less threatened with an arrest and has come to realize that whatever LE has, it is not enough for the state to feel they can proceed with charges against her and it likely will not be without something more.

The goal of LE is to find Kyron. I'm not convinced he's dead. I have seen no evidence that Terri was involved just as I've seen no evidence that Kaine was not involved. The biggest red flag I see is that Kaine has refused Terri co-parenting time with her child. Such a move is emotionally cruel to the child. There are two mothers who are without their child and the commonality is that the father is the same for both children.

JMO

Do you happen to have a link? In my experience, the decisions about co-parenting are usually left to the parents so that that court doesn't have to sort-out allegations being thrown by both sides.

JMO

You are misunderstanding the process. KH filed for sole custody with no visitation based on his allegation that TH was involved in a murder for hire plot as well as the disappearance of his son.

TH clearly stated in courtroom arguments and legal pleadings she filed, which I read, that she could not participate fully in the child custody litigation because it would involve her having to answer questioned about the criminal case and to do so would incriminate her. So, rather than fight the request that she have no contact with her daughter, TH gave up her opposition and custody of her daughter in a manner that severely limited her ability to ever gain back meaningful rights to her child.

As to evidence that KH or TH were involved, it is clear that the investigation became focused on TH at some time and KH was at work when his son disappeared. We do not know what evidence LE has against TH. But that certainly doesn;t mean they have nothing.

I have always stated I believe they have enough to arrest TH but not enough for a conviction. So, they did not arrest her because her speedy trial rights would begin to tick. I'm confident they have probable cause but
they want more before the state will authorize charges.

What has changed is that her daughter is now old enough to communicate with the court directly. Do you really think Courts will decide in Terri's favor simply because she claims the father threatened her child? Proof is usually required.

I don't believe Terri knows "nothing" about what happened to Kyron. I certainly would try to protect my child and keep my mouth shut if her father threatened to harm her if I spilled the beans. I'm just speculating this occurred because I see no good reason for Kaine to refuse even supervised visitation.

JMO

I think murder and murder plots are a great reason to refuse even supervised visitation. In some cases, parents have abducted and/or killed their kids during a supervised visit.

"co-parenting" is a voluntary arrangement mutually agreeable between parents. A court approves it but doesn't negotiate it.

A no-contact order is not a voluntary arrangement between the parents.

You seem to be confusing the legal definitions.


JMO

Ma'am, there were zero co-parenting conversations or arrangements between the parties at any time. KH requested that the RO cover their daughter and he also requested that TH have no custody of or visits with their daughter. Stating she could not afford to incriminate herself, TH dropped her opposition to those requests.

i personally do not believe TMH was involved and I think her attorneys honestly believed her from the beginning as well (not just the typical defense attorney stuff). i think the decision to not fight the RO and visitation/custody at first came from her legal team for whatever reason (im not a lawyer so i don't feel comfortable posting legal reasons why this would make sense as i don't fully understand why myself). I think TMH listened to her attorney's advice. We can judge her all we want, but the fact is, Kyron still hasn't been found and there is nothing to link TMH to his disapperance at this time.

As an attorney, I can tell you that it is clear TH's attorneys believe that TH could incriminate herself if she answered questions about Kyron's disappearance. They have repeatedly argued as much.

"In sum, the court is allowing the respondent (Terri Horman) to conduct her own investigation into and discovery of the relevant facts and evidence (except for the minor students a this time) in order to prepare for the eventual trial"

Is it just me or does this judge sound pretty certain that there will be a trial eventually? If he'd said "prepare for a possible trial" or some such thing it would have been more iffy but "the eventual trial" sounds inevitable. Does he know something we don't or am I just overinterpreting?

He is speaking about the divorce trial.

I think the Judge makes it abundantly clear that the trial he is referencing is the divorce/child custody proceeding that is his responsibility. He also makes it clear his decisions are focused on what is in the best interest of REDACT and points out that she has been separated from her mother for years on the basis of allegations, none of which have resulted in a criminal proceeding.

iow, it is time for Kaine to provide real proof that Terri was/is an unfit parent.

JMO

The minor has been separated from her mother because her mother refused to participate in the proceedings. The judge did not state that the child has been separated from her mother for years due to allegations alone.

And the Judge has finally demanded proof that Terri is indeed a dangerous woman. Bravo to the Judge for recognizing that a child's best interests must prevail. Allegations are just that until they are proved. Kaine used these allegations to prevent a child from seeing her mother for years yet there still are no pending criminal charges against Terri.

JMO

The judge is simply going forward because TH has finally decided to participate. She dropped her opposition previously, you know. Also, this means the judge will be demanding that TH answer questions and prove that it is in the child's best interest to see her. And since she waited 3 years to fight for her child, she has seriously hurt her case. She will never regain primary custody of her kid, although she may get some supervised visits and possibly more eventually.

And yeah, allegations are just allegations. But if a person refuses to demand proof substantiating allegations against them, then the allegations stand.

The big difference between Terri and Scott Peterson is that he was charged with a crime when his attorney made those comments.

JMO

No, he was not.

FWIW, i wasn't talking about you, as you are the only poster here to tell me they actually respect my opinion even though they disagree, which made me feel better and made me feel I could continue posting here when you said, so thank you for that. Believe me, I throughly believed TMH was involved up to her ears in this from day one until the recent dropping of the RO and the civil case, which could have been stayed indefinitely but instead it was just dropped, this says a lot. and the fact that it's been 3 years and there still hasn't been an indictment from the grand jury on kyrons disapperance or the MFH plot.

secondly, the preponderance of everything that has been seen so far has been from the MSM which has villified TMH from day one. It will be interesting to see what discovery is released and if any of this discovery points to witnesses seeing someone else leave the school with Kyron as her attorney stated in court. If this is in fact the case, this should be made public for safety reasons as well since so far they haven't been able to identify this person or connect them to TMH.

also, TMH has a very well regarded defense attorney. we have all seen what happens when suspects or persons of interest talk and talk and talk. i see nothing wrong with TMH asserting her constitutional rights. I am as disturbed as everyone that it's taken her three years to petition for custody but I also think she was advised by her attorneys that it would be better to wait until MCSO and the DA are backed into a corner where they have to show that they really have nothing on TMH. I am outraged as well that it has taken her so long but we don't know everything that is going on beyond the scenes. She immediately hired her attorney once the MFH plot and the RO happened, which the MFH was the pressing criminal matter at that time. She didn't hire her family law attorney until sometime after that.

i also wonder whatever happened with the alleged MFH plot. If there was actual evidence that would be enough to charge her with this, or indict her, why hasn't that happened and why would the judge drop the RO if there was still a viable case against her for the MFH plot? It just doesn't add up to me.

also the judge did rule that children and teachers at the school could be deposed as to what they saw the day Kyron went missing so if the statement made by TMH's attorney that she wasn't the last person seen with Kyron at the school is true that might come to light soon.

in regards to LE lying, Kantor actually stated in open court "police do that all the time." we all know they do this for investigative purposes but how far has it gone in this case and what did they lie about? it could be anything from polygraph tests to the circumstances around the MFH plot which was announced to the media along with the RO, which is what started the media storm against TMH.

The civil case and RO could not have been stayed indefinitely.

As a family law attorney for 12 years, I have never known any parent who would willingly give up custody of their child for any length of time to avoid questioning in a criminal investigation or case, unless they are guilty of something.

The judge did not rule that TH could question any children.

He's put his divorce on hold for three years, in order to aid in the investigation. He's actually done the opposite of what you've written. He's put the investigation into his son's disappearance before his divorce. I can't think of many people who would want to remain married to someone they believe to be a murderer. He's made huge sacrifices for the investigation.

I guess I really don't understand the Kaine suspicion.

He was at work when Kyron went missing, and this was verified.

Were I Kaine, I would have asked my coworkers not to speak to the press as well. To me this is only logical in the early stages of an investigation. They should be speaking to the police, not reporters.

He cooperated with LE, he aided the investigation and he was available for LE and questioning nonstop.

When LE told him he and his daughter were in danger, he moved her to safety and protected her through legal channels. Far from focusing on his divorce, he allowed his divorce to be put on hold to help the investigation of his missing son. He put his missing son first.

As far as I can tell, he hasn't done anything suspicious at all.

That's correct. Everything he and DY have done is to aid the investigation, strategically.

i dont think he knows more than he has said. i think he refused the search because LE wasn't involved and weren't the ones searching. i think the fact they haven't spoken in 3 years also could be a factor. as to why they haven't spoke, i can only speculate but if i were DY and strongly believed Terri was directly involved in Kyron's abduction I wouldn't want to talk to the person who "let the wolf in" so to speak, either.

Precisely. And DY stated as much. She was furious at KH for not letting her know what was happening, how unhappy Kyron was and that TH had a drinking problem. She was completely devastated and horrified and livid with KH. I don't blame her.

She did not have custody of her older child either, her son from her marriage prior to Kaine.

From what I remember she went to Canada for two months in 2004 and both boys went with their dad, she did not seek custody once she returned. She then moved to I think it was Medford.

She had cancer and temporarily gave up custody while being treated, as I recall. The law in OR, however, makes it almost impossible to regain custody after a switch. For example, in CA, a significant change in custody is all that is needed. DY regaining her health would be enough. But in OR, a substantial change in custody that was unforeseen at the time the order was issued, is required for her to regain primary custody and that would include things like a showing that the child was now in danger at his dad's:

The legal basis for a modification of an order regarding a parenting plan, child custody, child support, or spousal support in Oregon or Washington requires a substantial change in circumstances which was unforeseen or unanticipated at the time the original order was entered with the court. For example, in Oregon, a modification action to change child custody must be supported by evidence that the current custodial parent is unfit to provide primary care of the children and a change of custody to the other parent is in the best interests of the child.http://www.divorcenorthwest.com/modification.asp

This all came out early on in the case and DY spoke about it. She asked KH to allow Kyron to return to her and he refused.

"JOSTAD: Right. Well, apparently, he lived with his mother for the first two years of his life, but then his mother, Desiree Young, had a very serious health issue. She had kidney failure. She had to travel to Canada to be treated. So she temporarily allowed Kaine Horman, Kyron`s father, to have custody of him, I guess planning to get custody back once she was well. But after her treatments, she decided he was better with his father, things were going well. So that`s why he was living with his father and his stepmother."

http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1007/27/ng.01.html

The reporter is incorrect. DY never simply gave up and decided the child was better with his father. At some point, once her health and other issues were resolved, she did, in fact, attempt to regain custody but she knew she would not prevail in court so she didn't file a request to modify:

Desiree’s backstory adds to the pathos. When the boy was 2 years old, Desiree suffered kidney failure she says was a result of taking a medication that was not FDA-approved—what medication, she won’t say. She went to Canada for treatment, but again has declined to give specifics. When she returned to Oregon, she tried to regain custody of Kyron and an older son from her first marriage. She was denied by Kaine and the other father, and never fought their decision in court. Desiree is now seeing a therapist to help deal with Kyron’s disappearance and has returned to work as an accountant at Lithia Motors in Medford. http://www.wweek.com/portland/article-12305-the_kyron_files.html

I think part of her rage at KH is that had she known TH was drinking too much and mistreating Kyron, had KH been honest about that, then she would have had grounds to seek a return to her custody. of course, he didn't want to give up primary custody of Kyron.

In retrospect it is so sad. I remember DY talking about how before he disappeared, Kyron was different. He was crying and begging to stay with his mom. IMO, Kyron knew something was wrong:

"Kyron became increasingly unhappy about not spending time with me. He wanted to come live with [me and his stepdad]," Young says. "Several times he would just break down and sob because he wanted to stay." http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20401700,00.html

 

[Mollyandme]

She was a body builder and going to the gym was something she loved it seemed.

She would know that exercise would help depression.

She appears much heavier to me. She looked put together three years ago.Now she looks like a person who has no self respect.n

What is she doing with her time? Is she working? She sure is not helping to find Kyron.

hopefully you have never had to deal with depression before but for a lot of people (not everyone) it doesn't really make you want to get up and exercise unless you force yourself or get stabilized on a medication that brings you back to baseline. A person who has no self respect? to me she looks like someone under severe stress/distress but thats jmo.

 

[rosesfromangels]

To me the changes in her appearance are far more in her face than in her weight. I do think she looks much larger, but people gain and lose and that's not surprising to me. It's her face. She looks 10 years older, harder, grim and lifeless. Kaine and Desiree to me look changed by stress and anguish - pale and thinner and sadder but determined and set. Terri looks like someone in a mug shot, or like a poster meant to deter people from doing drugs - like she is dead inside.

JMO.

Excellent observation. But I think that soul has been dead a lot before that little boy went missing. JMO, of course.:moo:

 

[Wendy101]

There is zero information to indicate that TH's minor son had anything to do with Kyron's disappearance. he did not live with her and was school-aged at the time.



Astute observation. LE must have had something to link DS to TH at the time.





I think that sadly, after DS began talking, both sides believed there may be a GJ indictment. There was not and this has empowered TH to try to gain more information about the case against her and to try to regain some rights to her daughter. She feels less threatened with an arrest and has come to realize that whatever LE has, it is not enough for the state to feel they can proceed with charges against her and it likely will not be without something more.





You are misunderstanding the process. KH filed for sole custody with no visitation based on his allegation that TH was involved in a murder for hire plot as well as the disappearance of his son.

TH clearly stated in courtroom arguments and legal pleadings she filed, which I read, that she could not participate fully in the child custody litigation because it would involve her having to answer questioned about the criminal case and to do so would incriminate her. So, rather than fight the request that she have no contact with her daughter, TH gave up her opposition and custody of her daughter in a manner that severely limited her ability to ever gain back meaningful rights to her child.

As to evidence that KH or TH were involved, it is clear that the investigation became focused on TH at some time and KH was at work when his son disappeared. We do not know what evidence LE has against TH. But that certainly doesn;t mean they have nothing.

I have always stated I believe they have enough to arrest TH but not enough for a conviction. So, they did not arrest her because her speedy trial rights would begin to tick. I'm confident they have probable cause but
they want more before the state will authorize charges.



I think murder and murder plots are a great reason to refuse even supervised visitation. In some cases, parents have abducted and/or killed their kids during a supervised visit.



Ma'am, there were zero co-parenting conversations or arrangements between the parties at any time. KH requested that the RO cover their daughter and he also requested that TH have no custody of or visits with their daughter. Stating she could not afford to incriminate herself, TH dropped her opposition to those requests.



As an attorney, I can tell you that it is clear TH's attorneys believe that TH could incriminate herself if she answered questions about Kyron's disappearance. They have repeatedly argued as much.



He is speaking about the divorce trial.



The minor has been separated from her mother because her mother refused to participate in the proceedings. The judge did not state that the child has been separated from her mother for years due to allegations alone.



The judge is simply going forward because TH has finally decided to participate. She dropped her opposition previously, you know. Also, this means the judge will be demanding that TH answer questions and prove that it is in the child's best interest to see her. And since she waited 3 years to fight for her child, she has seriously hurt her case. She will never regain primary custody of her kid, although she may get some supervised visits and possibly more eventually.

And yeah, allegations are just allegations. But if a person refuses to demand proof substantiating allegations against them, then the allegations stand.



No, he was not.



The civil case and RO could not have been stayed indefinitely.

As a family law attorney for 12 years, I have never known any parent who would willingly give up custody of their child for any length of time to avoid questioning in a criminal investigation or case, unless they are guilty of something.

The judge did not rule that TH could question any children.



That's correct. Everything he and DY have done is to aid the investigation, strategically.



Precisely. And DY stated as much. She was furious at KH for not letting her know what was happening, how unhappy Kyron was and that TH had a drinking problem. She was completely devastated and horrified and livid with KH. I don't blame her.



She had cancer and temporarily gave up custody while being treated, as I recall. The law in OR, however, makes it almost impossible to regain custody after a switch. For example, in CA, a significant change in custody is all that is needed. DY regaining her health would be enough. But in OR, a substantial change in custody that was unforeseen at the time the order was issued, is required for her to regain primary custody and that would include things like a showing that the child was now in danger at his dad's: This all came out early on in the case and DY spoke about it. She asked KH to allow Kyron to return to her and he refused.



The reporter is incorrect. DY never simply gave up and decided the child was better with his father. At some point, once her health and other issues were resolved, she did, in fact, attempt to regain custody but she knew she would not prevail in court so she didn't file a request to modify:

I think part of her rage at KH is that had she known TH was drinking too much and mistreating Kyron, had KH been honest about that, then she would have had grounds to seek a return to her custody. of course, he didn't want to give up primary custody of Kyron.

In retrospect it is so sad. I remember DY talking about how before he disappeared, Kyron was different. He was crying and begging to stay with his mom. IMO, Kyron knew something was wrong:

BBM: If it is true DY gave custody of Kyron to Kaine because she had cancer, then I am disgusted with him... Totally disgusted.

 

[Mollyandme]

As a family law attorney for 12 years, I have never known any parent who would willingly give up custody of their child for any length of time to avoid questioning in a criminal investigation or case, unless they are guilty of something.

i am not a lawyer, but in my previous career, before i had children, i worked closely with several family law attorneys, defense attorneys, GAL's, CASA etc and the district attorney on different types of cases involving children and their families. one woman i worked with was under investigation for something she was vehement she did not do (i honestly didn't believe her at first but thats besides the point). both her criminal defense attorney and her family law attorney told her it was better to let the father have the child until all matters were resolved as the case had to do with injuries to her young child. clearly i have no idea what happened in the GJ but whatever happened she was never indicted. so, even though you haven't experienced it, it does happen sometimes. Last I checked, they have shared custody again but this was 5 years ago so who knows whats going on now. basically, my point is, it does happen and i'm sure there are other examples out there but because family court matters involving minors are often sealed we don't hear about them.


just to clairy further: the doctor who the DA uses in suspected child abuse cases backed up the woman's claims that the injury was accidental and happened as the mother said it did based on her examination of the child and the injuries fitting the mothers story, this was well before GJ was convened in this case, so she could have fought it before it even got to the GJ phase, but the DA decided to take it to a GJ anyway for reasons unknown to me

 

[Mollyandme]

BBM: If it is true DY gave custody of Kyron to Kaine because she had cancer, then I am disgusted with him... Totally disgusted.

I thought she had a problem with her kidneys from taking non fda regulated supplements, not cancer

 

[La Louve]

"Desiree suffered kidney failure she says was a result of taking a medication that was not FDA-approved."

The Willamette Week article says "medication" rather than supplements.

I've always pieced this together as that she had cancer and was on a regimen of experimental treatment, which caused the kidney failure.

I honestly don't know how any of this is material to finding Kyron though.

 

[gitana1]

BBM. There is no reason for her to blame herself or forgive herself. Regaining custody after you've signed off on it isn't that easy. There has to be a significant change in circumstances but those "changes" were withheld from DY. I think DY's emotion is anger and it will be with her for a very long time. I hope she finds Kyron so at least she'll have peace.

JMO

Exactly.

This is true but the only problem I have with this scenerio is that the event the science fair was open to the public; and then we have his friends testimony that he went outside to see "the electric one" someone lured him out that door; I believe his friend Tanner's statement.

But I also believe with heart and soul that KH wanted cleanly out of that marriage so that TH wouldn't try to "claim" rights to Kyron in any way. I see that in Kaine. He was fine letting these women raise this child. He continually is lying in his interviews. THIS IS MY OPINION based on his body language and his speech and his behaivor before and after the crime. Kyron was set to fly out to CA that very weekend.

So did he board that flight? Did he board an earlier flight? Was there a change in his flight?

I am so tired of asking LE this question; and I know you are reading here as much as the FBI is.

Please get on Kaine; and uncover all his work communique; his texts his emails and all online searches. 2 mos back 2 mos after. I require it! I demand it at this point, please LE.

It's not rocket science. This has smacked of a child custody case from the very first day to me. Not a killing, a "hiding" let's say. By Kaine Horman who has relatives in Germany.

Link to relations in Germany?

Also, there would be zero legal reason for Kaine Horman to hide Kyron in relation to his marriage to TH.

It looks to me like there are hundreds of photos of a loving Terri and an equally loving Kyron. James said that Terri treated Kyron like her own son.
"The only difference between her relationship with Kyron and me was the difference in ages," he said. And Terri didn't try to get rid of James. She said, "I sent James away so that he would be happy" and Ron Tarver admitted that James had been "butting heads" with Kaine. One can assume that Tarver questioned James about the way he was treated---most fathers would want to know that firsthand.

True. And by most accounts from everyone, TH was good to Kyron...until she wasn't.

We thought my son was having absence seizures and it was a couple of months before they scheduled his EEG, of course he didn't have any the 24 hrs he was hooked up. But that is what it sounds like Kyron was having. But they have to do an EEG to check.

The only parent of the four to mention possible seizures was TH, so to me it doesn't sound like he was having absence seizures. It sounds like she was trying to say he was, if ya' know what I mean.

I don't understand your point-- the jury found Casey was not guilty.

I don't know one attorney or judge who believes the jury was right. Judge Belvin Perry sure didn't.

I think that while Desiree was in Canada for her illness, it would have been legally sound for Kaine to have full legal custody. I'm sure this was advised by the family law attorneys, possibly to protect Kyron in case he fell ill and needed medical treatment requiring parental signoff.

People in the US travel to foreign countries more and more for medical treatment. If Desiree has relatives in Canada, it would have been a logical option for someone in her situation.

It's interesting to me again how the end of the school year would have been a time of stress for Terri. She'd be losing whatever teaching job she may have had, with the attendant pressure to find other employment. And if she couldn't find a job, she'd be stuck at home for the summer with a child about whom she didn't feel warmly.

Sole legal custody is not necessary if one parent is absent but able to talk. I think they retained joint legal custody. It was the physical custody that changed.

How are her tax returns going to implicate her in Kyron's disappearance?

JMO but if there was a chance that I'd have to hand over a lump of money to an ex I'd be a little miffed if the ex didn't have to supply any income information.

ITA!! I don't understand how TH can simply say 'nope' to a request for financials during divorce proceedings.

Has anyone here read how the judge ruled on KH's request for contacts who might have "knowledge that Terri Horman was not the last person to see Kyron Horman" before he disappeared? I see the rulings for other aspects of KH's motions, but haven't seen a report where this is specifically addressed.

I believe the point of the Judge's ruling is that Terri hasn't been named a suspect or person of interest in a criminal proceeding. He and her attorneys are trying to protect her rights as a citizen to avoid being overturned on possible appeal.

JMO

With regard to the financial records, it is not that TH doesn't have to produce records or won't or that the judge is protecting her rights due to the criminal proceeding. Her financial records don't have to do with Kyron. They have to do with her request for attorney's fees. Also, the issue is that there was an argument about exactly which financial records TH would have to produce.

In the discovery process, one side may contest a discovery request stating it is, in context, too burdensome as the records are equally available. It appears that the judge here agreed as to certain financial documents, saying that Kaine could get them via subpoena, which is usually the ruling when the party asked to produce the documents, doesn't have them at hand. So if both parties have to subpoena the records or otherwise work to get them but both can get them, the court will usually require the requesting party to do the work.

Make Kaine produce all his records, end of story.

I'm not at all sure what you mean. There has been nothing whatsoever reported that states Kaine himself is withholding his own records.

To me the changes in her appearance are far more in her face than in her weight. I do think she looks much larger, but people gain and lose and that's not surprising to me. It's her face. She looks 10 years older, harder, grim and lifeless. Kaine and Desiree to me look changed by stress and anguish - pale and thinner and sadder but determined and set. Terri looks like someone in a mug shot, or like a poster meant to deter people from doing drugs - like she is dead inside.

JMO.

Yes. It's her face. She looks haggard.

i am not a lawyer, but in my previous career, before i had children, i worked closely with several family law attorneys, defense attorneys, GAL's, CASA etc and the district attorney on different types of cases involving children and their families. one woman i worked with was under investigation for something she was vehement she did not do (i honestly didn't believe her but thats besides the point). both her criminal defense attorney and her family law attorney told her it was better to let the father have the child until all matters were resolved as the case had to do with injuries to her young child. clearly i have no idea what happened in the GJ but whatever happened she was never indicted. so, even though you haven't experienced it, it does happen sometimes. Last I checked, they have shared custody again but this was 5 years ago so who knows whats going on now. basically, my point is, it does happen and i'm sure there are other examples out there but because family court matters involving minors are often sealed we don't hear about them.

Family court matters are rarely sealed. Juvenile dependency court matters are almost always sealed. It doesn't matter if the person in your example was not indicted. That doesn't mean she wasn't guilty. You yourself felt she was guilty.
Again, I have never known in my 12 years of practice, any parent who would willingly give up custody of their child for any length of time to avoid questioning in a criminal investigation or case, unless they are guilty of something.

Or course I have known parents who have willingly given up custody for other reasons.

I thought she had a problem with her kidneys from taking non fda regulated supplements, not cancer

Yes, but I recall early on in this case that it was cancer and that the treatments caused her kidney failure. However, a lot of time has passed and I may have gotten that wrong. But I just remember that for some reason.

 

[gitana1]

"Desiree suffered kidney failure she says was a result of taking a medication that was not FDA-approved."

The Willamette Week article says "medication" rather than supplements.

I've always pieced this together as that she had cancer and was on a regimen of experimental treatment, which caused the kidney failure.

I honestly don't know how any of this is material to finding Kyron though.

You're right. It's not relevant.

 

[ami]

BBM: If it is true DY gave custody of Kyron to Kaine because she had cancer, then I am disgusted with him... Totally disgusted.

So he should have given up his son when Desiree returned? As if it's a CD that he borrowed from a friend?

I mean I'm totally sympathetic to Desiree. Were I her, I would also be furious at Kaine for knowing there was a warning flag present in Terri, that she was drinking, that she was miserable as a stepmother. I would be furious, too, and I think she has every right to be.

But I also understand why Kaine wouldn't hand over his own son, send him away, after being his primary parent for years, after having a family that included his new baby girl and his growing boy - split up the family and send Kyron to live hours away because Desiree was now able to care for him. Even though she had every right and reason to. I think Kaine wanted Kyron in his home, despite the rocky family times, as any good parent would. And I think Kaine only now has had to look squarely at how truly "rocky" the family had become.

I don't want this to turn into snark on my end, and I mean no disrespect by this. I think both Kaine and Desiree love Kyron completely, and both wanted him, and both are acting as parents would who love and want their child close to them. I don't think Kaine was disgusting for not wanting to give up his child. I don't think Desiree was wrong for the way she felt about that, either.

 

[Mollyandme]

i'm really bad at snipping quotes on my ipad so i'll just write this here..

gitana, i know in your experience you haven't seen it happen where a parent would voluntarily give up custody in a situation to avoid answering questions in an investigation, but in my experience I have. so i still stand by my point because I believe it can happen under certain circumstances. i know i'm not a lawyer so my experience probably doesn't hold as much weight as yours on this board and i'm not trying to be disrespectful as you are a lawyer and I am not, I just wanted to share my experience.

 

[Mollyandme]

So he should have given up his son when Desiree returned? As if it's a CD that he borrowed from a friend?

I mean I'm totally sympathetic to Desiree. Were I her, I would also be furious at Kaine for knowing there was a warning flag present in Terri, that she was drinking, that she was miserable as a stepmother. I would be furious, too, and I think she has every right to be.

But I also understand why Kaine wouldn't hand over his own son, send him away, after being his primary parent for years, after having a family that included his new baby girl and his growing boy - split up the family and send Kyron to live hours away because Desiree was now able to care for him. Even though she had every right and reason to. I think Kaine wanted Kyron in his home, despite the rocky family times, as any good parent would. And I think Kaine only now has had to look squarely at how truly "rocky" the family had become.

I don't want this to turn into snark on my end, and I mean no disrespect by this. I think both Kaine and Desiree love Kyron completely, and both wanted him, and both are acting as parents would who love and want their child close to them. I don't think Kaine was disgusting for not wanting to give up his child. I don't think Desiree was wrong for the way she felt about that, either.

I agree, if anything, I think Desiree thought it was in the best interest of Kyron to stay with his father for most of the time, as she didn't want to disrupt at that point, what she assumed and was led to believe was a stable home environment for him. this had to be a very hard decision for her, but i believe she did what she thought was in the best interest of her son and I can't fault her for that. imo, this is prob one of the reasons she is so angry bc Kaine hid so much of the dysfunction going on with terri in the home from Desiree.

 

[gitana1]

i'm really bad at snipping quotes on my ipad so i'll just write this here..

gitana, i know in your experience you haven't seen it happen where a parent would voluntarily give up custody in a situation to avoid answering questions in an investigation, but in my experience I have. so i still stand by my point because I believe it can happen under certain circumstances. i know i'm not a lawyer so my experience probably doesn't hold as much weight as yours on this board and i'm not trying to be disrespectful as you are a lawyer and I am not, I just wanted to share my experience.

It's okay. You just hit the quote button and then highlight and erase what you don't want to use.

But again, I never said I haven't seen it happen where a parent would voluntarily give up custody in a situation to avoid answering questions in an investigation. What is said was I have never known a parent to voluntarily give up custody in order to avoid answering questions that could incriminate them criminally, unless they were guilty. That's very different. And in the one example you gave me, you felt the mother was guilty, which supports my experience.

Now criminal attorneys may advise a parent to give up custody rather than answer questions related to a criminal investigation, but that is different from a parent agreeing to follow that advice.

This is my business. It's what I do every day and have for 12 years. Parents fight tooth and nail for their kids. If they love them and want them they will risk anything to keep them. Now there are some parents who don't give a darn for their kids and will give up custody as a result. But those parents do not retain family law attorneys and engage in child custody litigation. If they actually want their kids but listen to their attorney's advice regarding criminal incrimination, they are hiding something. If they don't care that much, they aren't litigating to begin with.

Terri cares. But she gave up for three years and even now won't fully participate in a manner that will allow her to have a meaningful relationship with her child. As a family law attorney, that was the one, most important thing that convinced me of her guilt.

 

[ktgirl]

As for Terri exercising, my guess is she can't go to a gym or walk/run around the neighborhood because people with point, stare, and ask where Kyron is.

You can only do so many exercise tapes in your home and the better programs (Insanity, etc) are very expensive, as are decent home exercise machines. And she isn't working, is she?

I'm not defending her and feel like she's brought this on herself, but if I were cooped up in my parent's house all day with no job, no way to exercise outside of my home, etc I'd probably look a lot worse than TH does.

 

[human]

As for Terri exercising, my guess is she can't go to a gym or walk/run around the neighborhood because people with point, stare, and ask where Kyron is.

You can only do so many exercise tapes in your home and the better programs (Insanity, etc) are very expensive, as are decent home exercise machines. And she isn't working, is she?

I'm not defending her and feel like she's brought this on herself, but if I were cooped up in my parent's house all day with no job, no way to exercise outside of my home, etc I'd probably look a lot worse than TH does.

I quit going to the gym because of the old men there. The ones my age. They drip all over the machines. I would wipe those off.

The thing that clinched it was the day I was swimming,and watched a guy leave the machines and come jump into the pool without changing or taking a shower.

So now I exercise at home. I walk and in inclement weather ,I ride a stationary bike and watch TV; I do floor exercises. Home gym equipment can be obtained for free. I see it by the side of the road here after yard sales because no one buys exercise equipment at a yard sale. Kind of like pianos. You ca n't give them away.

Although i have exercised on and off all of my life, TMH was way more into it being a body builder. The dedication and sacrifice that takes. Wow.

I have far more enjoyed exercising in classes or at a gym, but now I choose to do it at home. That is something i thought I would never do.

It is hard to imagine that an organized, former gym person would be satisfied sitting around at home doing nothing. She is a young person but she looks really elderly.

 

[gitana1]

As for Terri exercising, my guess is she can't go to a gym or walk/run around the neighborhood because people with point, stare, and ask where Kyron is.

You can only do so many exercise tapes in your home and the better programs (Insanity, etc) are very expensive, as are decent home exercise machines. And she isn't working, is she?

I'm not defending her and feel like she's brought this on herself, but if I were cooped up in my parent's house all day with no job, no way to exercise outside of my home, etc I'd probably look a lot worse than TH does.

Yeah, I don;t give a darn about her weight. Or her looks. I mean, anyone in that situation would experience some physical changes. But I am interested in her physical appearance in relation to what it may tell us and what her face tells me is that guilt and pressure is eating her alive.

I don't think you can kill a child if you are not a sociopath and live on, a happy and healthy life.

 

[rosesfromangels]

Yeah, I don;t give a darn about her weight. Or her looks. I mean, anyone in that situation would experience some physical changes. But I am interested in her physical appearance in relation to what it may tell us and what her face tells me is that guilt and pressure is eating her alive.

I don't think you can kill a child if you are not a sociopath and live on, a happy and healthy life.

Well said. I believe an accomplice will receive immunity to testify against her, and she knows this is going to happen. My opinion only.

 

[nosysw]

As for Terri exercising, my guess is she can't go to a gym or walk/run around the neighborhood because people with point, stare, and ask where Kyron is.

You can only do so many exercise tapes in your home and the better programs (Insanity, etc) are very expensive, as are decent home exercise machines. And she isn't working, is she?

I'm not defending her and feel like she's brought this on herself, but if I were cooped up in my parent's house all day with no job, no way to exercise outside of my home, etc I'd probably look a lot worse than TH does.

Exactly my point. I don't sympathize with her but I think depression is responsible for her weight gain (which I also don't think is a huge change from before) and depression, in my opinion, having suffered it myself for many years, stops her from exercising. Knowing exercising will help your depression does not automatically motivate you to do it, that's for sure.

Well said. I believe an accomplice will receive immunity to testify against her, and she knows this is going to happen. My opinion only.

I am praying this is so....

 

[nosysw]

Yeah, I don;t give a darn about her weight. Or her looks. I mean, anyone in that situation would experience some physical changes. But I am interested in her physical appearance in relation to what it may tell us and what her face tells me is that guilt and pressure is eating her alive.

I don't think you can kill a child if you are not a sociopath and live on, a happy and healthy life.

I agree that her looks, in and of themselves, are not important. I agree that the changes are most evident in her face; also in how she carries herself. Respectfully, I do think she has a narcissistic personality disorder, with sociopathic tendencies, and therefore doesn't feel guilty. I do believe her depression is from loss of lifestyle, being cooped up and unable to party and meet men, etc. I do hope her stress is related to fear that the jig is up.

 

[rosesfromangels]

I agree that her looks, in and of themselves, are not important. I agree that the changes are most evident in her face; also in how she carries herself. Respectfully, I do think she has a narcissistic personality disorder, with sociopathic tendencies, and therefore doesn't feel guilty. I do believe her depression is from loss of lifestyle, being cooped up and unable to party and meet men, etc. I do hope her stress is related to fear that the jig is up.

And I hope that each and every night her dreams are dominated with the face of a little boy repeatedly asking one question......."why?"