Laura Babcock Murder Trial 11.21.17 - Day 19

[Just4TB]

One thing that is important to keep in mind is that questions put to witnesses are not evidence. The only evidence in a trial is put forward by witnesses who are under oath.

That being said, when a person is defending himself, every word that he says will be analyzed by the jury whether it is 'evidence' or not and it can have a huge impact them.

DM continues to dig deeper.....

Thanks for the insight & clarification into various legal fine points. It is appreciated.

 

[dar107]

Did CN lose her phone at the camp? Random thought.....

 

[Spartygirl]

Nov 21 2017 1:14 PM-SHANNON MARTIN

We are back at 2:15 p.m. ET.

 

[Spartygirl]

CBC Live Blog

Justice Michael Code calls for the lunch break. Some legal discussions happening now. I'll let you know how long the break is momentarily.

I'm going to have to bow out after lunch.....hoping someone can jump in?

Same with me for the tweets. Any takers?

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I Can cover the BLOG this afternoon...much to the dismay of hubby who thought I was going to spend my vacation day from work cleaning the house..LOL

 

[EspressoBean]

I think this might be clearer later....or maybe not. It might have been to stop something that the defense was going to use to create doubt. It may be used to explain why CN's phone was turned off - defense might have been prepared to say that CN was using another phone if they can show that her phone was not being used. Odd witness for sure but I don't doubt there was a purpose.

 

[ADAWG]

I wonder if some of the legal arguments had something to do with the camp counselor and questions had to be omitted

 

[mimimic]

Maybe a fellow camp counselor has some stories to share.

 

[Quinnergirl]

That and maybe something about the Browns Line stop?

Yes I think you are right, IMO. Wonder if she got on a stop closer to DM's house closer to the date of murder? JMOO

 

[dar107]

When I seen the name Julie, I thought for sure it was the infamous "Julia"

Where is she??

 

[Nosey Parker]

I wonder if some of the legal arguments had something to do with the camp counselor and questions had to be omitted

Or how they are going to obtain testimony from CN. Is she going to hide in Poland? Are they able to use her police statements only? I thought defence had a right to cross.

 

[Nov2017]

Interesting experience going to the trial. Here are my observations. I don't think I'm violating any rules by writing this, but mods please snip ad lib if anything crosses lines.

I showed up outside the court room at 8am...and there were already people there! I was about 10th in line. Seems like a core crew of people who've been able to attend regularly, I suspect, some who also post here...

Morning started with an hour of legal arguments in the absence of the jury. For me, this was as interesting (or maybe even more interesting) than the testimony. Can't talk about it, unfortunately.

To answer somebody's question upthread - there were legal arguments with the jury out, then the witness was brought in, she was given some very specific instructions by the judge, then the jury was brought in. The cross has been live-tweeted more-or-less accurately (a few minor things didn't make it into the tweets) so I won't dwell on that.

Observations...

DM - Taller and thinner than I'd pictured him, with a ski-jump nose that surprised me. Wearing laceless shoes, jeans that were too big, a blue shirt and a dark jacket that was too broad in the shoulders yet at the same time too short in the sleeves for him. Had the much-discussed braid on the right side of his head. Something I haven't seen mentioned -- he had what looked like a small buckskin or leather pouch on a leather cord around his neck. Anybody know what that's about?

I was struck initially at how normal he appeared, but as he began to talk, both in the legal arguments and in his cross, I developed a profound dislike of him. I think his decision to represent himself is showing the jury more about him than perhaps he realizes or intends.

I'm no doubt coloured by all the proceedings, but I think even factoring that out he comes across as being a bit "off". MOO.

The cross seemed all over the place at the beginning, with the patented Millard recitation of long lists of seemingly trivial things ("Did I pay for your weed? Did I pay for you smokes? Did I pay for "... on and on for 5 minutes). As he seems to have done with other witnesses, he threw in at least one question to the witness that seemed to be an "inside joke" or "inside message" that didn't seem to make any sense or have any relevance to his line of questioning ("How do you spell hanger?"). I suspect he and MM (and MS) were the only ones in the room who knew what that was referring to. Whether it was "teasing" (as DM explained it in court) or a way of trying to develop some rapport/reminiscence with MM by referring to an inside joke from their good ol' days, whether it was an attempt at intimidation, or a reference to something else I couldn't tell. Judge stepped in and basically told DM to get to the point.

MM- smaller than I'd pictured. Blue jeans, cream coloured top, grey sweater. Feisty on the stand. Looked really nervous when the cross started, but soon settled down and a few times was arguing with DM. I don't think she's the smartest girl in the world in terms of book-smarts, but I think she's cunning and savvy. I feel like some questions she expected and was ready for, but other questions ("Have you ever fired this gun?") seemed to catch her off guard. How she answered that specific question I think reflects a common theme on the stand in lot of the witnesses from this social circle (let the reader understand!).

MS - blue striped shirt, just sat there head down the whole time. Did not appear to be writing his next big rap hit.

Dungee - media reports from the Bosma trial had him "thundering". His voice was very hard to hear today -- does he have a cold or does he always talk like that?

The jury - appears to be a broad range of backgrounds, just based on how they were dressed. Some of the jurors were taking copious notes, others were listening with their eyes closed. Some of them had very interesting body language, and I'll leave it at that.

The judge - I really got a good impression of him. He seems deliberate, thoughtful, but firm -- all things you want in a judge I guess. I do wonder if sometimes he asks questions not for his own benefit, but for the benefit of the jury (eg saying "I don't know what a tricky scale is, can you explain it?" -- seriously?) As a general observation, not anything specific to what was discussed with the jury present or absent, it appears that he and the Crown are going out of their way to be accomodating to DM to compensate for the fact that he's not a lawyer.

The picture of the gun that was shown- appeared to be a six-shot revolver. My impression up until now is that the 0.38 brought up in the trial was a Walther semi-auto. Can somebody confirm/clarify?

Overall - very interesting look at the justice system, and one high profile case in particular. Happy to answer any specific questions, if I'm able.

 

[brightii]

Thank you to RandomName479, inbetweendoors and Spartygirl for covering the tweets today. I'm just stepping back in here for a moment so unfortunately I can't help out with tweets this afternoon. I'm very slow at it anyway, so hopefully someone else who is better at it than I can step in.

I think MM is as manipulative and deceitful as the rest of the DM / MS entourage and I perceive her to be out for herself and to heck with justice for LB!

IMO, MM relies on her reportedly diminutive size and soft-spoken demeanour to give others the false impression that she is a victim of circumstance. From my observation, MM doesn’t seem to have any problem asserting herself when challenged, even by DM in this tense court setting. She purrs when it suits her agenda and bites back when she feels the need, IMO.

I found it odd on Friday and again today that MM called the Crown prosecutor, Jill Cameron by her first name. That’s a bit too familiar IMO, and maybe it bothered no one else, but it bugged me. Little things I notice I guess but they all add up to help form my opinion. Does MM realize the gravity of her role as a key witness in this trial? Not IMO. I also think MM would like people to believe that DM was attracted to her and there is something about her that seems needy for that kind of attention and validation, IMO.

I am glad she was shown to be an unreliable witness, IMO, but it is deeply regretful that she was exposed as such in a truer light by DM of all people. It doesn’t matter one iota to me that she admitted lying under oath to police years ago and/or on the stand today – and she confirmed both IMO – she confirmed to me that she is not trustworthy and unfortunately her credibility as a Crown witness is severely tainted if not shattered completely IMO. MM told the Crown on redirect today that she lied about the gun because she didn’t want to remember? What else does she wish to forget? Won't her selective memory make the jury wonder too?

I realize that many members here are supportive of MM and feel grateful for her testimony, and while I respect anyone’s right to that perspective, it is not a perspective that I share. MM’s testimony today hurts the Crown’s case, IMO and I cannot feel thankful to MM for that.

ALL MOO

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Thank you to RandomName479, inbetweendoors and Spartygirl for covering the tweets today. I'm just stepping back in here for a moment so unfortunately I can't help out with tweets this afternoon. I'm very slow at it anyway, so hopefully someone else who is better at it than I can step in.

I think MM is as manipulative and deceitful as the rest of the DM / MS entourage and I perceive her to be out for herself and to heck with justice for LB!

IMO, MM relies on her reportedly diminutive size and soft-spoken demeanour to give others the false impression that she is a victim of circumstance. From my observation, MM doesn’t seem to have any problem asserting herself when challenged, even by DM in this tense court setting. She purrs when it suits her agenda and bites back when she feels the need, IMO.

I found it odd on Friday and again today that MM called the Crown prosecutor, Jill Cameron by her first name. That’s a bit too familiar IMO, and maybe it bothered no one else, but it bugged me. Little things I notice I guess but they all add up to help form my opinion. Does MM realize the gravity of her role as a key witness in this trial? Not IMO. I also think MM would like people to believe that DM was attracted to her and there is something about her that seems needy for that kind of attention and validation, IMO.

I am glad she was shown to be an unreliable witness, IMO, but it is deeply regretful that she was exposed as such in a truer light by DM of all people. It doesn’t matter one iota to me that she admitted lying under oath to police years ago and/or on the stand today – and she confirmed both IMO – she confirmed to me that she is not trustworthy and unfortunately her credibility as a Crown witness is severely tainted if not shattered completely IMO. MM told the Crown on redirect today that she lied about the gun because she didn’t want to remember? What else does she wish to forget? Won't her selective memory make the jury wonder too?

I realize that many members here are supportive of MM and feel grateful for her testimony, and while I respect anyone’s right to that perspective, it is not a perspective that I share. MM’s testimony today hurts the Crown’s case, IMO and I cannot feel thankful to MM for that.

ALL MOO

All that mattered about MMs testimony was that DM and MS used the incinerator together and that DM gave them the iPad. The rest was inconsequential. Unless you believe she lied about that everytime she was asked, then she did what the crown wanted her to do.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Thank you to RandomName479, inbetweendoors and Spartygirl for covering the tweets today. I'm just stepping back in here for a moment so unfortunately I can't help out with tweets this afternoon. I'm very slow at it anyway, so hopefully someone else who is better at it than I can step in.

I think MM is as manipulative and deceitful as the rest of the DM / MS entourage and I perceive her to be out for herself and to heck with justice for LB!

IMO, MM relies on her reportedly diminutive size and soft-spoken demeanour to give others the false impression that she is a victim of circumstance. From my observation, MM doesn’t seem to have any problem asserting herself when challenged, even by DM in this tense court setting. She purrs when it suits her agenda and bites back when she feels the need, IMO.

I found it odd on Friday and again today that MM called the Crown prosecutor, Jill Cameron by her first name. That’s a bit too familiar IMO, and maybe it bothered no one else, but it bugged me. Little things I notice I guess but they all add up to help form my opinion. Does MM realize the gravity of her role as a key witness in this trial? Not IMO. I also think MM would like people to believe that DM was attracted to her and there is something about her that seems needy for that kind of attention and validation, IMO.

I am glad she was shown to be an unreliable witness, IMO, but it is deeply regretful that she was exposed as such in a truer light by DM of all people. It doesn’t matter one iota to me that she admitted lying under oath to police years ago and/or on the stand today – and she confirmed both IMO – she confirmed to me that she is not trustworthy and unfortunately her credibility as a Crown witness is severely tainted if not shattered completely IMO. MM told the Crown on redirect today that she lied about the gun because she didn’t want to remember? What else does she wish to forget? Won't her selective memory make the jury wonder too?

I realize that many members here are supportive of MM and feel grateful for her testimony, and while I respect anyone’s right to that perspective, it is not a perspective that I share. MM’s testimony today hurts the Crown’s case, IMO and I cannot feel thankful to MM for that.

ALL MOO

I agree with everything you said, including the "Jill" part. That struck me too.

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[brightii]

I agree with everything you said, including the "Jill" part. That struck me too.

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

Thank you inbetweendoors. I thought I may have been alone in my reaction to that.

 

[raining]

Nov2017: WOW this is SO interesting, thank you for posting! I wanted to go so badly but haven't been able to score a day off work. Maybe on Thursday or next week to see what the defence does.

Thanks to everyone who has been posting- I have been following along for years but rarely sign in.

I don't know how I feel about the crown's job so far. Their story just seems so incomplete without the TB/WM stuff. I wish they could have been tried for all three murders at once.

 

[MorningStar22]

Thank you inbetweendoors. I thought I may have been alone in my reaction to that.

Not at all. “A wolf in sheeps clothing” comes to mind.

 

[SnoopCat]

Thank you to RandomName479, inbetweendoors and Spartygirl for covering the tweets today. I'm just stepping back in here for a moment so unfortunately I can't help out with tweets this afternoon. I'm very slow at it anyway, so hopefully someone else who is better at it than I can step in.

I think MM is as manipulative and deceitful as the rest of the DM / MS entourage and I perceive her to be out for herself and to heck with justice for LB!

IMO, MM relies on her reportedly diminutive size and soft-spoken demeanour to give others the false impression that she is a victim of circumstance. From my observation, MM doesn’t seem to have any problem asserting herself when challenged, even by DM in this tense court setting. She purrs when it suits her agenda and bites back when she feels the need, IMO.

I found it odd on Friday and again today that MM called the Crown prosecutor, Jill Cameron by her first name. That’s a bit too familiar IMO, and maybe it bothered no one else, but it bugged me. Little things I notice I guess but they all add up to help form my opinion. Does MM realize the gravity of her role as a key witness in this trial? Not IMO. I also think MM would like people to believe that DM was attracted to her and there is something about her that seems needy for that kind of attention and validation, IMO.

I am glad she was shown to be an unreliable witness, IMO, but it is deeply regretful that she was exposed as such in a truer light by DM of all people. It doesn’t matter one iota to me that she admitted lying under oath to police years ago and/or on the stand today – and she confirmed both IMO – she confirmed to me that she is not trustworthy and unfortunately her credibility as a Crown witness is severely tainted if not shattered completely IMO. MM told the Crown on redirect today that she lied about the gun because she didn’t want to remember? What else does she wish to forget? Won't her selective memory make the jury wonder too?

I realize that many members here are supportive of MM and feel grateful for her testimony, and while I respect anyone’s right to that perspective, it is not a perspective that I share. MM’s testimony today hurts the Crown’s case, IMO and I cannot feel thankful to MM for that.

ALL MOO

Couldn't have said it better myself.

At this point i wouldn't put anything past her. She saw the gun in DM's room. She went with him to the US to purchase ammunition for said gun, which she may or may not have brought back to Canada. She fired said gun at the barn. What exactly was her role in all of this is up for grabs, in my opinion.

 

[canadiangirl]

Not at all. “A wolf in sheeps clothing” comes to mind.

Oh wow, who remembers those messages from the TB early days? Talking about the wolf....

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[canadiangirl]

Couldn't have said it better myself.

At this point i wouldn't put anything past her. She saw the gun in DM's room. She went with him to the US to purchase ammunition for said gun, which she may or may not have brought back to Canada. She fired said gun at the barn. What exactly was her role in all of this is up for grabs, in my opinion.

I find it odd she disliked Millard but travelled to the US alone with him.


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