Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[MrsThreadgoode]

I'm assuming that both the idea that Laura is still alive and the idea that Laura was not incinerated by both accused will be rejected by the jury as simply not consistent with the evidence. Given that, a not only reasonable but likely alternative reason for buying the incinerator could only help the accused with regard to weakening the Crown theory of the case.

I am sorry, JuneBug, but I am not following this reasoning at all, but I am sure others are. Could you please explain in a different way? My apologies.


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[MsSherlock]

Interesting that it was "shortly after" July 5th.

IMHO, the problem wasn't suitable bodies to feed the eliminator, it was more of an issue of getting the eliminator to work correctly. There's probably a bit of a learning curve. It was the end of August that SS said he smelt something foul; probably a result of an incomplete burn, and not necessarily LB. AFAIK, TB was a first time they were going to take the equipment and owner, swipe out the equipment, kill and incinerate the owner. It was a complex plan and everything had to work like clockwork to make it happen, and once again, had LE let it ride for even a week until they made sure TB didn't leave on his own accord, we may not be sitting here in this thread today. There were lots of 3500's out there that they could have stolen, lots of owners they could have killed and incinerated. IMHO, they had to wait until the incinerator was working properly and/or they knew how to use it properly. FWIW, any idiot who would put their phone/camera within 4 or 5 feet of 1200 degrees F just so they can get a trophy pic isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. I seriously doubt that you're suppose to be opening a portable crematorium while its in operation. MOO

 

[JuneBug67]

It will be interesting to see all of what the jury didn’t hear after WM trial. DM was sloppy and my guess is that there will be details in his jailhouse letters and likely texts to MS and Isho. Wouldn’t be surprised to see SS and AM pop up again. For everyone who keeps saying that this is about theft, don’t forget that he allegedly killed his own FATHER.


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Isn't that the same theme though? Killing for profit? Willing to "merk if the payoff is big enough"? I have never doubted that the motive for killing his father was financial. The motive for killing Tim was financial. It follows that the motive for Laura may very well have been financial as well.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I'm assuming that both the idea that Laura is still alive and the idea that Laura was not incinerated by both accused will be rejected by the jury as simply not consistent with the evidence. Given that, a not only reasonable but likely alternative reason for buying the incinerator could only help the accused with regard to weakening the Crown theory of the case.

Given the crown was begging to get that even at the end of their case, they appeared to feel otherwise.

 

[Shaz14]

Whenever I think about DM killing LB during his 1 hour mission, I wonder why he wouldn’t just take her body right to the farm after. There is no reason to carry a dead body back into his house and then leave it there all night and ship it out the next day, in broad daylight! Why pull an all-nighter after? If he had killed her right away, he could have ditched her body at the barn and been back home playing video games with MS by 10pm that night.

IMO the plan was more than just kill and cremate. It was hurt, kill, and cremate, and I believe MS there for each phase.

It still would have been daylight if he killed her sometime between 7 and 7:30pm since it was the beginning of July. It wouldn’t have gotten dark until after 9pm

 

[MsSherlock]

Thought the response was from the cousin? also is this RB's son?

From what I read it was DM's response to his cousins text
Also redacted was a text Millard sent Jan. 18, 2013 to a cousin inquiring about what he’d been up to. “Smuggling drugs killing hookers,” was his reply. Babcock had been working as an escort before she went missing
http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel

 

[DeaconBrodie]

Given the crown was begging to get that even at the end of their case, they appeared to feel otherwise.

Never leave a stone unturned, even if you've already tried to turn it over once before and failed......

 

[Shaz14]

Thought the response was from the cousin? also is this RB's son?

I wonder why that text about selling drugs and killing hookers wasn’t admissible. Sounds like it is related to the case...

 

[JuneBug67]

I am sorry, JuneBug, but I am not following this reasoning at all, but I am sure others are. Could you please explain in a different way? My apologies.


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I think it's very, very likely that the jury will accept the Crown's contention that Laura was murdered on July 3/4 and that she was incinerated on July 23rd. Given that, if the jury had information that the purchase of the incinerator was meant for another crime and not part of a plan to murder Laura for the reasons the Crown contend, Smich in particular could benefit and Millard could at least credibly demonstrate that the Crown's theory was wrong in an important way. There would still be other huge hurdles to clear obviously, but it would have thrown the Crown's theory on motive in the dustbin, which is frankly where I've always thought it belonged.

It's all just thinking out loud anyway, because obviously defense lawyers who know the law and the collective mind of a jury much better than I went a very different way. I can just say that I would have found that argument credible were I juror. I think the absence of that evidence allows the crown to create an artificial narrative about motive and planning that stems only from the fact that the keys texts when isolated from other information occur sequentially in time.

 

[Shaz14]

IMHO, the problem wasn't suitable bodies to feed the eliminator, it was more of an issue of getting the eliminator to work correctly. There's probably a bit of a learning curve. It was the end of August that SS said he smelt something foul; probably a result of an incomplete burn, and not necessarily LB. AFAIK, TB was a first time they were going to take the equipment and owner, swipe out the equipment, kill and incinerate the owner. It was a complex plan and everything had to work like clockwork to make it happen, and once again, had LE let it ride for even a week until they made sure TB didn't leave on his own accord, we may not be sitting here in this thread today. There were lots of 3500's out there that they could have stolen, lots of owners they could have killed and incinerated. IMHO, they had to wait until the incinerator was working properly and/or they knew how to use it properly. FWIW, any idiot who would put their phone/camera within 4 or 5 feet of 1200 degrees F just so they can get a trophy pic isn't the sharpest tool in the shed. I seriously doubt that you're suppose to be opening a portable crematorium while its in operation. MOO

What i’ve Never understood is why SS discovered that smell in August. Even from the blurry picture they took of bones burning in the incinerator it didn’t look like there was anything other than bones in there. That incinerator was HOT. It would have taken a long time to cool off too. Would there really have been anything left in there that would smell? And if they didn’t do a complete burn, why would they wait until August to have the tank refilled?

 

[Jealoushe]

He may have gotten his dates confused - on purpose.

 

[matou]

So he wanted to pimp her, she refused? So he mad a plan to kill her instead.

He told her: You are harmful to me. He had AM keep tabs on her whereabouts. Maybe she was gonna spill that he wanted to be a pimp to Christina or anyone?

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

I think it's very, very likely that the jury will accept the Crown's contention that Laura was murdered on July 3/4 and that she was incinerated on July 23rd. Given that, if the jury had information that the purchase of the incinerator was meant for another crime and not part of a plan to murder Laura for the reasons the Crown contend, Smich in particular could benefit and Millard could at least credibly demonstrate that the Crown's theory was wrong in an important way. There would still be other huge hurdles to clear obviously, but it would have thrown the Crown's theory on motive in the dustbin, which is frankly where I've always thought it belonged.

It's all just thinking out loud anyway, because obviously defense lawyers who know the law and the collective mind of a jury much better than I went a very different way. I can just say that I would have found that argument credible were I juror. I think the absence of that evidence allows the crown to create an artificial narrative about motive and planning that stems only from the fact that the keys texts when isolated from other information occur sequentially in time.

This is a good discussion. I think its important to keep in mind that the defense's goal is to convince the jury of reasonable doubt of murder, not to disprove a crown theory on one piece of the case.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

I wonder why that text about selling drugs and killing hookers wasn’t admissible. Sounds like it is related to the case...

My impression is that Justice Code skillfully excluded evidence that he thought could potentially result in a successful appeal while at the same time making sure that he allowed enough in to ensure that DM and MS will spend the rest of their lives in the big house.

It's a real tight rope that a judge has to walk and we and he will only know how well he did when the jury returns with its verdict.

 

[canadiangirl]

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/mandel

“I’m down to merk (murder) people if it’s a big enough payoff”

— Dellen Millard in a text kept from the jury.

Did we hear the gun found beside Dad's body? First I've read this I think

The jury heard about none of this. The only gun purchase entered into evidence was the one on July 2 — the day before Millard met up with Babcock — when he bought a .32-calibre Smith and Wesson handgun from Ward-Jackson. They weren’t told, however, this is the same weapon found beside his father’s body on Nov. 29, 2012.

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[Shaz14]

Did we hear the gun found beside Dad's body? First I've read this I think

The jury heard about none of this. The only gun purchase entered into evidence was the one on July 2 — the day before Millard met up with Babcock — when he bought a .32-calibre Smith and Wesson handgun from Ward-Jackson. They weren’t told, however, this is the same weapon found beside his father’s body on Nov. 29, 2012.

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we only found out about the gun and his dad today, after the jury was sequestered. It wasn’t admissable as evidence.

 

[Grey-St]

Wow, I am truly speechless at some of the information being submitted in the "what the jury didn't hear" articles.

First of all, we finally have an answer to how much the jury knew of the two accused. About 50% had heard of them already, in relation to coverage of the TB case. However, they vowed to remain objective.

I am in utter disbelief that the text stating that "the BBQ is the last piece of the puzzle in 3500 mission" was disallowed in the TB case. This completely supports premeditated murder for both DM and MS. I'm so comforted knowing that the jury returned with a guilty verdict of M1 for both accused.

The "been smuggling drugs and killing hookers" text basically made me want to vomit.

I wasn't surprised to hear that the crown fought hard to have information regarding TB brought into evidence, along with their other criminally activity or "missions". I am also not surprised to hear that CN was originally in the works to testify as a crown witness, but was later decided against. Additionally, it was not surprising that the crown fought to disallow DM to cross examine certain witnesses. My hear truly goes out to them, knowing how difficult that must have been.

It's quite amazing to see that MS admitted to MM while confessing that TB was "gone, gone", that it was not the first time they had used the incinerator to burn a body. He knew, and in my opinion, always knew. I hope this puts to rest some of the ridiculous theories floating around other forms of social media, that MS possibly did not know what he was burning, or did not know what was in the tarp. I hope those people feel foolish now.

I had stated very early on, that DM had a "pimp mentality". I stated this because of my experience working with victims of human trafficking and those in the sex trade, and also because of the way he manipulated and exploited those around him (cc. the cycle of exploitation for clarification). I never once implied that he was a pimp, or tried to be a pimp, just that he had a similar mentality in how he got people to do things for him, in which he would benefit or profit from. However, I feel slightly vindicated having now read that he was in fact, contemplating "pimping Laura out" in his little note to himself.

Interesting to note the text between the two defendants about being willing to "merk" people, as long as it was beneficial to them. That, in addition to the fact that DM was sourcing out a gun for MS while in the states, implies quite a few things. JMO.

 

[JuneBug67]

This is a good discussion. I think its important to keep in mind that the defense's goal is to convince the jury of reasonable doubt of murder, not to disprove a crown theory on one piece of the case.

I agree, but planning and deliberation is a critical piece of M1. Effectively disproving a key Crown contention about intent and planning is a firm step towards reasonable doubt about at least the degree. I agree that the defence in this case chose a traditional and I'm presuming well worn and well advised strategy, but I would reject some of their important contentions if I was a juror. I would think it could only benefit them if I were rejecting key Crown contentions instead.

 

[ab-initio]

Whenever I think about DM killing LB during his 1 hour mission, I wonder why he wouldn’t just take her body right to the farm after. There is no reason to carry a dead body back into his house and then leave it there all night and ship it out the next day, in broad daylight! Why pull an all-nighter after? If he had killed her right away, he could have ditched her body at the barn and been back home playing video games with MS by 10pm that night.

IMO the plan was more than just kill and cremate. It was hurt, kill, and cremate, and I believe MS there for each phase.

Exactly.
Further, if he wanted it a "short and sweet" process, he arguably could have taken her directly TO the hangar and committed the murder there. All done in one fell swoop.
Smarter, too, to transport a live body over a dead one the distance from Etobicoke to Waterloo.

But that's not what the evidence alleges.


Because of the location/time of the murder and the pings/timing of arriving at the hangar I believe:

1 -
He arrived to Maple Gate with LB, with MS's full knowledge -- his "be there in 5, don't be outside" (paraphrasing here) is akin to arriving to a surprise party with the guest of honour. TAKE YOUR PLACES, EVERYONE!

2 -
The trip he was on shortly after arriving is not when LB died. She went with him, as the phone pings suggest. I don't know what they were doing, or what explains her non-use of phone (I don't buy the "she was enamoured and on a date narrative -- that's not how social-media frenzied young adults behave; nor do I subscribe to the idea that they had anything to do with CN at that time.) Perhaps they took off because MS wasn't in place, or whatever they had arranged wasn't completely set up.

3 --
LB was killed at Maple Gate in a crime of passion. I don't completely believe a gun was used, but that's not relevant.
The radio silence is indicative, to me, that the accused were together and carrying out their crime.
MM's location? Somewhere in the house, stoned out of her gourd? Passed out after a high?

4 --
The accused separated ways, albeit in the same residence.
The morning text from Smich came from within the house, with knowledge of what had already occurred. He was either checking in on DM, or had looked for him and noticed he wasn't there.
Why did DM leave without him? He didn't sleep as much as MS, and figured he'd cross a few things off on their "to do list."

 

[JuneBug67]

Did we hear the gun found beside Dad's body? First I've read this I think

The jury heard about none of this. The only gun purchase entered into evidence was the one on July 2 — the day before Millard met up with Babcock — when he bought a .32-calibre Smith and Wesson handgun from Ward-Jackson. They weren’t told, however, this is the same weapon found beside his father’s body on Nov. 29, 2012.

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I'm assuming some jurors would have inferred that anyway. Some knew of the accused in the media and they were told in the trial that the gun was recovered by police. I'm willing to bet that some made that connection in their minds, but will likely leave it there.