Laura Babcock Murder Trial 12.12.17 - Final Charge - *Verdict Watch*

[ab-initio]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
8m8 minutes ago

Millard submitted further text messages between he and #LauraBabcock, and a number of text messages where the words "that girl" are used in different contexts.

I don't recall ever seeing these?
I expressed my curiousity over this during DM's closing -- because he said something about the term being used for years ...
do we have a link/reference to these admissions?

 

[Jilleybeen]

I believe the jury will come to a conclusion quickly of M1 for DM. I don't think they will make a decision on MS and we might have a hung jury. 😬 Just based on us WSers inability to unanimously decide on him. Certainly not what I am hoping for, but what I can foresee.

What happens if they can't decide for one of them? Is it a mistrial for both of them?

 

[JuneBug67]

RSBM

Wow. I hadn't noticed the "me" before. The Crown should have hammered this home.

My first assumption would be that the "me" was to avoid any unintentional inference about Pedo.

 

[billandrew]

Thanks for your reply billandrew. I don't necessarily disagree with you, but your judgement is based on a lot of information that was not heard inside this courtroom. I can answer the question of guilt in two ways, what I think he is guilty of, which would be similar to hat you have stated, and what the crown has proved he's guilty of, which amounts to assisting in disposal of the body.

That’s very true. Going back to your original point about MS’s request for a dog and bones being in line with a plan for a pet cremation business, I don’t see that at all. IMHO the evidence in this trial shows:

• MS wanting something wet, something with bones, and then requesting a dog in the context of testing the incinerator.
• MS standing happily in front of the incinerator as it’s burning. He finally got what he wanted.
• MS writing lyrics about a b!tch laying on ashy stone.
• MS confessing to his buddies about killing a girl and burning her body.

Even if someone doesn’t think MS was physically present for LB’s murder, they might still conclude that MS helped plan it and encouraged it so that he would have material for the incinerator. I.e. LB became the wet thing with bones in it. When MS asked for the dog, DM probably replied, “patience negro, I know just the right thing.” And then they drove out to the titty bar where they discussed killIng LB.

The pet cremation business is such a silly notion to me that I don’t give it much, if any weight. MS clearly had a deeper interest and involvement in the project than burning pets. He simply wasn’t interested in or capable of doing legitimate work. The texts in this trial show he wanted more than anything to be a rapper, and the only raps we heard in this trial were quite sinister and in line with the events of LB’s murder and cremation.

 

[ab-initio]

I have a question regarding a comparison of US trials vs. Canadian Trials.

Does the Judge is the US charge the Jury by going over every piece of evidence, or do they just explain the charges and how to find the defendant guilty or not guilty?

I find this particular Charge to the Jury extremely detailed and I have to admit, I'm confused. I don't remember this at the TB trial. I do remember the decision trees which I haven't heard Judge Code discuss yet or else I've skimmed over it.

TIA

I was reading some articles on interviews from jurors from the Casey Anthony trial (Florida), who are now speaking out about why they returned a not guilty verdict in that M1/death penalty case -- Juror #3 said countless times that the prosecution didn't tell/prove to them motive or how/when Calee died; also pointed to a statement made in defence Jose Bias' opening statement which alluded to Calee drowning -- yet no evidence to support this speculation was presented at trial.

I imagine the judge's charge has to be significantly different, because from what I gather here -- Casey Anthony would have been convicted of M1 had Judge Code ran her trial and kept her jury in line.

That, or all of the jurors explicitly went against their direction from the judge.

http://www.businessinsider.com/brai...rs-came-up-with-the-not-guilty-verdict-2011-7

 

[redheart]

My first assumption would be that the "me" was to avoid any unintentional inference about Pedo.

But then why not say "we should get US a dog", or "we should get YOU a dog"? Obviously DM knows that MS knows he has Pedo, so it would have been clear what MS meant. IMO this was discussed at "the titty bar" and they were both clear on what the plan was.

 

[DeaconBrodie]

I believe the jury will come to a conclusion quickly of M1 for DM. I don't think they will make a decision on MS and we might have a hung jury. 😬 Just based on us WSers inability to unanimously decide on him. Certainly not what I am hoping for, but what I can foresee.

What happens if they can't decide for one of them? Is it a mistrial for both of them?

Whatever they do decide for one stands and then the Crown can then decide if they want to retry the other one or can offer him a deal for a guilty plea to some lesser charge.

 

[musicaljoke]

One of MS’s texts was, “we should get me a dog.” BBM. I believe this shows that MS had more ownership/interest in the incinerator project beyond just helping DM. And MS was not entering the pet cremation business. IMO their plan was to murder people and burn their bodies. This was the ruthlessness, the business rising, etc. that they frequently talked about.

IMHO, in addition to profiting from taking things “from the source”, the sinister experiences of killing and cremating were intended to give MS inspiration to write his rap lyrics. Kinda like a painter will travel to a remote mountain range for inspiration, MS wanted real experiences to inspire his violent raps. This is how he would gain an edge on other “wannabe” rappers. Being “real” in gangster rap is an important thing. Killing LB mutually benefitted DM and MS. DM cured his parasites/herpes and MS had real material to base his raps from.

I also think it’s feasible that they envisioned a human cremation service to eliminate evidence for shady folks like Isho and his connections. His crowd was not far removed from the Hell’s Angels and other gangs. Once they had their process down they could open their shop for business. We also heard that DM was going to build a giant garage at his farm, supposedly to create the ultimate chop shop.

In addition, I think that we all believe that CN knew of the impending murder by the single comment "Have fun doing big things." It stands to reason, that if DM shared his murderous visions with CN, whom he claims that he didn't care for much, then he also called onboard his very dear friend and personal assistant, MS. Conversations throughout the early part of 2012, suggest that the missions were changing into something much more sinister. There was also a message about the level of trust that was required between them. MS' raps were becoming bloody and violent. MS was hungry and excited for the next level.

I believe that DM continued to include MS in his plans, and did not exclude him from the missions that he intended to follow. In my reading of the evidence, there's nothing to suggest that MS was completely clueless about what was happening or had happened. He always acted in accordance with the murder plan.

 

[puppyraiser]

That’s very true. Going back to your original point about MS’s request for a dog and bones being in line with a plan for a pet cremation business, I don’t see that at all. IMHO the evidence in this trial shows:

• MS wanting something wet, something with bones, and then requesting a dog in the context of testing the incinerator.
• MS standing happily in front of the incinerator as it’s burning. He finally got what he wanted.
• MS writing lyrics about a b!tch laying on ashy stone.
• MS confessing to his buddies about killing a girl and burning her body.

Even if someone doesn’t think MS was physically present for LB’s murder, they might still conclude that MS helped plan it and encouraged it so that he would have material for the incinerator. I.e. LB became the wet thing with bones in it. When MS asked for the dog, DM probably replied, “patience negro, I know just the right thing.” And then they drove out to the titty bar where they discussed killIng LB.

The pet cremation business is such a silly notion to me that I don’t give it much, if any weight. MS clearly had a deeper interest and involvement in the project than burning pets. He simply wasn’t interested in or capable of doing legitimate work. The texts in this trial show he wanted more than anything to be a rapper, and the only raps we heard in this trial were quite sinister and in line with the events of LB’s murder and cremation.

I agree with the bolded part. DM was supposed to be running the new business at the hangar, why bother with pet cremation when MillardAir was supposedly going to be making millions? MS didn't drive, or at least didn't have a license. Was this supposed to be MS's way to earn income? Why not hire him to clean up the hangar when it went into operations? Those two had a plan and it wasn't to help grieving pet owners retain the ashes of their beloved pet. The plan was much more sinister and involved making people disappear forever. Thankfully, those two weren't the sharpest crayons and left tons of evidence in their trail.

 

[james9]

I'm going out on a limb here....I think they jurors will reach a verdict very quickly. I'm basing this on the various tweets about their body language i.e. rolling eyes etc. I think they are thoroughly disgusted with these two.

Agreed. And unfortunately for the accused, I can't see a juror not going home and Googling Dellen Millard and Mark Smich. So, although their previous conviction is not supposed to affect this case, I find it hard to believe that the jurors would not "sneak a peak" to get more background info on the accused.

 

[FastLikeLight]

I don't remember that anyone from their group would have questioned when the pet business would start. Spend 15k and abandoned it for half year? Was there more than two burns using it? Will the WM trial open more details?

For me the crown presented enough evidences that both deserve M1.

 

[musicaljoke]

You know, If I was on the jury I'd have no problem finding him guilty of M1 based on what I know about him. Is there evidence? Probably not. Would I lose sleep worrying I'd sent an innocent man away? Not on your life. I'm sure that some members of the jury feel the same way and the minute pieces of evidence they do have might just be enough. We'll see.

I believe that the evidence is there to show MS' involvement in the murder, right from the planning stage, to the actual murder, and the aftermath. But, people read evidence differently. I'm very respectful of your opinion, because you obviously think clearly. I believe that MS will be found guilty, but if he isn't, then, Ok, he's still in jail for a long time, and a little corner of my mind will have a laugh at DM for trying to blame it all on MS.

 

[meterclicks]

After a bit of a delay, Justice Michael Code and the jury are now here. He promises to be brief.
by Shannon Martin 12:34 PM

 

[musicaljoke]

I was reading some articles on interviews from jurors from the Casey Anthony trial (Florida), who are now speaking out about why they returned a not guilty verdict in that M1/death penalty case -- Juror #3 said countless times that the prosecution didn't tell/prove to them motive or how/when Calee died; also pointed to a statement made in defence Jose Bias' opening statement which alluded to Calee drowning -- yet no evidence to support this speculation was presented at trial.

I imagine the judge's charge has to be significantly different, because from what I gather here -- Casey Anthony would have been convicted of M1 had Judge Code ran her trial and kept her jury in line.

That, or all of the jurors explicitly went against their direction from the judge.

http://www.businessinsider.com/brai...rs-came-up-with-the-not-guilty-verdict-2011-7

The CSI Effect. If every detail is not presented in evidence, then it never happened. There is no room for common sense.

 

[clefk27]

I agree with the bolded part. DM was supposed to be running the new business at the hangar, why bother with pet cremation when MillardAir was supposedly going to be making millions? MS didn't drive, or at least didn't have a license. Was this supposed to be MS's way to earn income? Why not hire him to clean up the hangar when it went into operations? Those two had a plan and it wasn't to help grieving pet owners retain the ashes of their beloved pet. The plan was much more sinister and involved making people disappear forever. Thankfully, those two weren't the sharpest crayons and left tons of evidence in their trail.

If they were interested in pet cremation, the smaller unit would have sufficed. DM opted for the 500 lb. unit.
DM also told SS about 2 incineration jobs he had lined up in Barrie. No evidence was ever given to back up this obvious lie. In totality, the pet cremation alibi only makes sense as a cover story for their (meaning both DM and MS) more sinister intentions.

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
2m2 minutes ago
Court is back in session, for about 20-odd pages of judges instructions left to be read before the jury retires to deliberate. #LauraBabcock

 

[meterclicks]

Code explains he'll give a review of the Crown's positions.

He begins saying Millard and Smich's "guilt is the only logical, rational conclusion arising from the evidence."

The Crown, he says, believes Babcock is dead.

"In five and half years, she has not made a phone call, sent a text, sent an email, used Facebook, made debit purchases, made credit card purchases, seen a doctor, been admitted to hospital, changed her name."
by Shannon Martin 12:38 PM

 

[james9]

ly if DM and MS got away with the murders and disposing of the bodies they would have hooked up with others who wanted to murder someone and have perfect plan to get away with it.
It was Tim Bosma s murder that busted them. it was the witness Igor who contacted the police about the man with a tattoo , that finally gave the cops something to go on.
They had a record of DM already in the computer and record of his tattoo. IF Igor had not been observant , who knows what would have happened.
He was a trained military person so he had training probably to observe things.
That lead was what lead the police to DM.
Then all hell broke loose, once they started investigating him they found a lot of evidence of other crimes. unbel

I agree that it was great that Igor identified the tattoo, but in my opinion they would have been caught soon enough anyway. SS's uncle called Crimestoppers to report that TB's truck was at the hangar, so that would have led the police to Millard regardless of Igor's tattoo identification.

 

[meterclicks]

Code continues summarizing the Crown's position:

"She left $1000 in cash sitting at her parents' house, received social assistance that she never used, and abandoned her beloved dog Lacey.

Ms. Babcock would be 28 years old now. Aside from disagreements with her parents that were typical of many 23-year-old girls, she had no reason to cut off ties with her family and friends - particularly so abruptly and completely.

Those who knew her uniformly describe her as kind, bubbly, and social. She simply would not inflict such cruelty on those who cared about her."
by Shannon Martin 12:40 PM

 

[Kamille]

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
6m6 minutes ago
Two final instructions, Justice Code says. It's traditional to remind the jury of the positions of the crown and defence, to remind them again "of their voices" after 3 days of instructions. #LauraBabcock

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
4m4 minutes ago
The position of the crown is that it has proven the guilt of Millard and Smich beyond any reasonable doubt. #LauraBabcock is deceased. This is the only rational inference from the evidence.

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
3m3 minutes ago
Babcock would be 28 years old. Besides typical disagreements with family, she had no reason to abruptly cut off all communication from all who knew her, crown submits, judge says. #LauraBabcock

Lisa Hepfner‏ @HefCHCHNews
2m2 minutes ago
There is no evidence #LauraBabcock ever had another phone. Her phone remained active for some time after her disappearance, before it was cut off. Phone records show friends like Megan Orr and Dr. Khattak kept trying to call her.