Lies point us to the truth

[UKGuy]

You'd have a point about Burke's remark about going back downstairs if his bedroom would've been on the 1st/ground floor, but it wasn't. It was on the 2nd floor, so going back downstairs means going from the 2nd floor down to the 1st/ground floor, not the basement.

icedtea4me,
Lets refresh our memory as to what Burke Said:

Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt

Dr Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

Burke: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.

Dr Phil: Did you use the flashlight, so you wouldn't be seen?

Burke: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

Dr Phil: Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat of a flashlight?

Burke:Absolutely not.

So the downstairs phrase is transitive and could mean any floor beneath the current one, did John Ramsey not state that he and Burke Ramsey were constructing some toy in the basement after returning from the White's? So is this the toy he wants to get out?

Yet, this is not the point as I was speculating that Burke Ramsey is now saying he returned back downstairs as he has learned that BPD have forensic evidence that links him to the basement or the wine-cellar in particular, hence Burke Ramsey's after the fact statement about returning downstairs which might be code for the basement as forensic evidence found elsewhere might be of little significance?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Lets refresh our memory as to what Burke Said:

Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt




So the downstairs phrase is transitive and could mean any floor beneath the current one, did John Ramsey not state that he and Burke Ramsey were constructing some toy in the basement after returning from the White's? So is this the toy he wants to get out?

Yet, this is not the point as I was speculating that Burke Ramsey is now saying he returned back downstairs as he has learned that BPD have forensic evidence that links him to the basement or the wine-cellar in particular, hence Burke Ramsey's after the fact statement about returning downstairs which might be code for the basement as forensic evidence found elsewhere might be of little significance?

.

Why would you think a brand new toy Burke just got for Xmas would be down in the basement rather than on the 1st/ground floor?

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Yes, a takeover was attempted. You heard the saying "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

Checkout the new sixth president of Uganda, kinda, he is the same guy, how does that work?

Political corruption is alike financial corruption, once you start running the printing presses you have to keep them running, just to keep the show on the road.

Check out One Nation Under God: How Corporate America Invented Christian America - Kevin M Kruse, see Amazon, to find out when Congress added the phrase "under God" to the Pledge of Allegiance and made "In God We Trust" the country's official motto?


Yes, an injustice, but if we all pull together and simply publish the facts, the truth will prevail, and JonBenet's story will be told, not dumped in the garbage alike the True Bills.

.

UKGuy,
Thank you for the eye opening book reference. You know some of us have been taught that religion and politics don’t mix. This book as well as this case show that indeed they do. We can look at the church in Rome to confirm this. So disheartening.

I so look forward to the day that truth and justice come forward for Jonbenet. You have mentioned that JR and BR dna has been sourced to the basement. I know about The nightgown and BR and PR source. I am unaware of JR source. Can you help?

 

[UKGuy]

Why would you think a brand new toy Burke just got for Xmas would be down in the basement rather than on the 1st/ground floor?

icedtea4me,
Neither John nor Burke are specific as to where the toy(s) referenced in both their answers were actually located.

Patently Burke is not going to say Hey I was down in the wine-cellar.

They just reference a Toy downstairs which we all assume means the room where the Christmas Gifts were laid out around the tree?

So when questioned in the future on some forensic topic Burke might come out with When I was getting my toy out, I think I visited the basement to fetch my xyz tool?

Or it might transpire the toy Burke is referencing resides in the basement, possibly even the wine-cellar?

.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
Thank you for the eye opening book reference. You know some of us have been taught that religion and politics don’t mix. This book as well as this case show that indeed they do. We can look at the church in Rome to confirm this. So disheartening.

I so look forward to the day that truth and justice come forward for Jonbenet. You have mentioned that JR and BR dna has been sourced to the basement. I know about The nightgown and BR and PR source. I am unaware of JR source. Can you help?

Rain on my Parade,
Your welcome. On the dna I've likely left a comma out or mistyped since Patsy is linked by her fibers and touch dna and Burke is linked to the wine-cellar by his touch-dna and John by the fibers from his Israeli manufactured woolen shirt which for Boulder alone would represent a unique shirt, i.e. real foreign fibers, not USA, or South American sheep, etc, so the match while probablistic is kosher in the significance factor.
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
9 JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY
10 December 12, 2001
9:49 a.m.
500 The Candler Building
12 127 Peachtree Street, N.E.
Atlanta, Georgia
Excerpt

21 Q. (By Mr. Levin) Mr. Ramsey, it is

22 our belief based on forensic evidence that

23 there are hairs that are associated, that the

24 source is the collared black shirt that you

25 sent us that are found in your daughter's

0058

1 underpants, and I wondered if you --

2 A. . I don't believe that.

3 I don't buy it. If you are trying to

4 disgrace my relationship with my daughter --

5 Q. Mr. Ramsey, I am not trying to

6 disgrace --

7 A. Well, I don't believe it. I

8 think you are. That's disgusting.

He has to say that does he not.

So all three Ramsey's are linked by forensic evidence to the wine-cellar.

Yes the book thing is to highlight that any separation of church and state is slowly being eroded.

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Your welcome. On the dna I've likely left a comma out or mistyped since Patsy is linked by her fibers and touch dna and Burke is linked to the wine-cellar by his touch-dna and John by the fibers from his Israeli manufactured woolen shirt which for Boulder alone would represent a unique shirt, i.e. real foreign fibers, not USA, or South American sheep, etc, so the match while probablistic is kosher in the significance factor.
VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
9 JOHN BENNETT RAMSEY
10 December 12, 2001
9:49 a.m.
500 The Candler Building
12 127 Peachtree Street, N.E.
Atlanta, Georgia
Excerpt

He has to say that does he not.

So all three Ramsey's are linked by forensic evidence to the wine-cellar.

Yes the book thing is to highlight that any separation of church and state is slowly being eroded.

.

FYI: There are oustanding dna lab results relating to John and Burke Ramsey listing where any touch-dna was deposited, only the foreign dna has been given promininence, there is more to come, bear in mind Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was found on the bloodstained Pink Barbie Nightgown found in the wine-cellar.

UKGuy,
My apologies for not linking this quote earlier in reference to the “outstanding dna lab results relating to JR.”

Curiously, it was probably a week earlier that I watched a program about the Pope’s of Rome. They pointed out how our heads of state hold audience with the Pope. So, yep, there it is.

Leaves one wondering, what has happened; to the Golden Rule?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
My apologies for not linking this quote earlier in reference to the “outstanding dna lab results relating to JR.”

Curiously, it was probably a week earlier that I watched a program about the Pope’s of Rome. They pointed out how our heads of state hold audience with the Pope. So, yep, there it is.

Leaves one wondering, what has happened; to the Golden Rule?

Rain on my Parade,
Ah, right. So all the lab results regarding JonBenet's clothing have not been made public, this does include any matches to John and Burke which there are, but excluded on the grounds that they are of no material value and cannot be distinguished from cross transfer.

So are there any touch-dna deposits inside JonBenet's underwear from either John or Burke?

The Vatican is a state within a state. Has its own banks, aircraft fleet, diplomats, etc. Say no more ....

.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

Rain on my Parade,
Ah, right. So all the lab results regarding JonBenet's clothing have not been made public, this does include any matches to John and Burke which there are, but excluded on the grounds that they are of no material value and cannot be distinguished from cross transfer.

So are there any touch-dna deposits inside JonBenet's underwear from either John or Burke?

The Vatican is a state within a state. Has its own banks, aircraft fleet, diplomats, etc. Say no more ....

.

UKGuy,
My point was how did you come to this information?
UKGuy said: ↑
FYI: There are oustanding dna lab results relating to John and Burke Ramsey listing where any touch-dna was deposited.
I will concede that since JR brought JB up from the basement his touch dna should be found on her. What about BR please?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy,
My point was how did you come to this information?
UKGuy said: ↑
FYI: There are oustanding dna lab results relating to John and Burke Ramsey listing where any touch-dna was deposited.
I will concede that since JR brought JB up from the basement his touch dna should be found on her. What about BR please?

Rain on my Parade,
From memory its from comments and remarks by BPD investigators regarding the status of the current dna lab analysis.

They have only tested particular areas of JonBenet's underwear and her longjohns. Only the results that suited the then current agenda were released.

BPD have not stated that John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was not found on JonBenet's clothing, due to environmental transfer in the house they expect it to be present, so implicitly they do not rate it as forensic evidence.

So the issue is was John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna found on the inside of JonBenet's underwear or under the waistband of the longjohns?

Everyone expects it to be present, but the big question where, what is the location?

Its similar to what was the color of Burke Ramsey's pajamas that he wore to bed Christmas Night?

The Ramsey's say they cannot remember and no BPD investigator has made the color public, or even mentioned if they have them stored away in a safe evidence cage?

Although I foucus on JR and BR, similar questions apply to Patsy, but I'm biased as I think part of the motive may have been sexual?

.

 

[UKGuy]

Respectfully nipped for focus — and OFF TOPIC



I’m reading a book titled “The Founding Myth,” by a lawyer for the Freedom From Religion Foundation, the one Ronald Reagan’s son advertises on TV (“and not afraid of burning in hell”). You might like it. I’m going to hunt for yours.

887sMtreme,
Thanks for the reference. When Ronald Reagan was in office the USA funneled money via the Vatican to various underground samizdat dissident groups in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Russia etc, in opposition to communism. This all contributed to the fall of these illiberal regimes.

That is clever advertising by Ronald Reagan’s son, i.e no way will he burn in hell.

I'll check the bookout and give you some feedback.

.

 

[TinaD]

I've just been catching up with my reading here, and haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been brought up. There's lots of discussion regarding the flashlight being in the kitchen. One of the scenarios I've wondered about is whether Burke used the flashlight to get JB out of bed and sneak downstairs for pineapple (remember the partially digested pineapple). She annoys him in some way and he hits her with the flashlight, setting off the events of the night. If Patsy and John didn't know the children used the flashlight to get downstairs, they wouldn't know why it was in the kitchen, only that it had been used as the weapon. Then the rest of the bizarre staging happens.

Also, on the 'sexual trauma' evidence, in my view, all the coroner should say is that trauma had been done to the vaginal area. He should not refer to it as sexual, as this is in the mind and intentions of the offender - actions done for sexual gratification. I don't believe the injuries caused to JB that night were for sexual gratification, only made to look that way. In relation to the prior abuse, I believe Steve Thomas wondered whether Patsy had caused the injuries by repeatedly and forcefully douching JB following her bed soiling issues. Again, this is not done for sexual gratification.

 

[UKGuy]

I've just been catching up with my reading here, and haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been brought up. There's lots of discussion regarding the flashlight being in the kitchen. One of the scenarios I've wondered about is whether Burke used the flashlight to get JB out of bed and sneak downstairs for pineapple (remember the partially digested pineapple). She annoys him in some way and he hits her with the flashlight, setting off the events of the night. If Patsy and John didn't know the children used the flashlight to get downstairs, they wouldn't know why it was in the kitchen, only that it had been used as the weapon. Then the rest of the bizarre staging happens.

Also, on the 'sexual trauma' evidence, in my view, all the coroner should say is that trauma had been done to the vaginal area. He should not refer to it as sexual, as this is in the mind and intentions of the offender - actions done for sexual gratification. I don't believe the injuries caused to JB that night were for sexual gratification, only made to look that way. In relation to the prior abuse, I believe Steve Thomas wondered whether Patsy had caused the injuries by repeatedly and forcefully douching JB following her bed soiling issues. Again, this is not done for sexual gratification.

TinaD,

There's lots of discussion regarding the flashlight being in the kitchen. One of the scenarios I've wondered about is whether Burke used the flashlight to get JB out of bed and sneak downstairs for pineapple (remember the partially digested pineapple). She annoys him in some way and he hits her with the flashlight, setting off the events of the night.

Yes, this has been discussed and many members think some similar scenario unfolded Christmas Night?

On the Flashlight
Dr Phil Interview with Burke Ramsey, episode 2, excerpt

Dr Phil: I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed, and then you snuck downstairs to play?

Burke: Yeah, I had some toy that I wanted to put together. I remember being downstairs after everyone was kinda in bed, and wanting to get this thing out.

Dr Phil: Did you use the flashlight, so you wouldn't be seen?

Burke: I don't remember. I just remember being downstairs, I remember this toy.

Dr Phil: Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat or a flashlight?

Burke:Absolutely not.

Some unanswered questions regarding the flashlight are: Dr Phil says John Ramsey brought the flashlight upstairs, but not if he brought it back down again, also Burke Ramsey is indeterminate over his use of the flashlight.

So who relocated the flashlight back downstairs, since as far as we know it was left in Burke Ramsey's bedroom?

I believe Steve Thomas wondered whether Patsy had caused the injuries by repeatedly and forcefully douching JB following her bed soiling issues. Again, this is not done for sexual gratification.

Could be, as JonBenet displayed signs of being wiped down, along with the possible use of water. Although Coroner Meyer makes no reference to suggest the presence of the industrial chemicals used in the standard douching products. So douching is certainly a scenario to consider.

.

 

[TinaD]

Could be, as JonBenet displayed signs of being wiped down, along with the possible use of water. Although Coroner Meyer makes no reference to suggest the presence of the industrial chemicals used in the standard douching products. So douching is certainly a scenario to consider.

.[/QUOTE]

Thanks UKGuy. I'm not sure that douching happened that night, but I do think it might account for the signs of previous 'abuse'.

 

[Forever Young]

Could be, as JonBenet displayed signs of being wiped down, along with the possible use of water. Although Coroner Meyer makes no reference to suggest the presence of the industrial chemicals used in the standard douching products. So douching is certainly a scenario to consider.

.

Thanks UKGuy. I'm not sure that douching happened that night, but I do think it might account for the signs of previous 'abuse'.

I'm new to this thread. Just wanted to comment that could be from insertion of a medicated suppository for vaginitis, which could have been caused by JonBenet's poor toileting habits when going #2. I've never heard it recommended to use a douche on a 6 year old. JMO

 

[887sMtreme]

I'm new to this thread. Just wanted to comment that could be from insertion of a medicated suppository for vaginitis, which could have been caused by JonBenet's poor toileting habits when going #2. I've never heard it recommended to use a douche on a 6 year old. JMO

Cover your ears if you don't want to hear about female hygiene techniques of the late 20th century.

Quite right, douching would never be recommended for a six-year-old. These days, it isn't recommended at all! But back then, women routinely douched, often with plain water or a mild (NOT "industrial") solution after intercourse, menstruation, or just for general "freshness." It was considered part of proper ladylike hygiene. Patsy might well have thought her daughter would benefit from it.

Most douche kits included a syringe for vaginal use that would have been too large for JonBenet, even with her supposedly slightly larger-than-usual opening. But they also came with an enema tip, much narrower. Patsy might have thought that would be useful for "tidying up" after JonBenet had one of her overnight fecal mistakes. This could easily have caused (not cured) her UTIs. It could also have caused some of the vaginal wall damage noted in her autopsy, especially if administered in frustration.

 

[887sMtreme]

Could be, as JonBenet displayed signs of being wiped down, along with the possible use of water. Although Coroner Meyer makes no reference to suggest the presence of the industrial chemicals used in the standard douching products. So douching is certainly a scenario to consider.

In the late 1800s and early 1900s, women actually douched with Lysol, thinking it an abortifacient. It was advertised in cagey ways to convey that idea and would certainly fit the bill of "industrial chemical." Many women caused themselves terrible harm as a result.

By the 1960s and 90s, douche solutions were very mild and sometimes women just used water, or water with a tiny bit of vinegar to balance the pH of the solution. By the 1990s, most gynecologists were advising women not to douche at all, but some did and probably still do.

 

[Cottonstar]

Rain on my Parade,
From memory its from comments and remarks by BPD investigators regarding the status of the current dna lab analysis.

They have only tested particular areas of JonBenet's underwear and her longjohns. Only the results that suited the then current agenda were released.

BPD have not stated that John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was not found on JonBenet's clothing, due to environmental transfer in the house they expect it to be present, so implicitly they do not rate it as forensic evidence.

So the issue is was John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna found on the inside of JonBenet's underwear or under the waistband of the longjohns?

Everyone expects it to be present, but the big question where, what is the location?

Its similar to what was the color of Burke Ramsey's pajamas that he wore to bed Christmas Night?

The Ramsey's say they cannot remember and no BPD investigator has made the color public, or even mentioned if they have them stored away in a safe evidence cage?

Although I foucus on JR and BR, similar questions apply to Patsy, but I'm biased as I think part of the motive may have been sexual?

.

BR told Detective Patterson in his interview the day after Christmas, that he wore blue fuzzy pajamas on CHRISTMAS NIGHT.

 

[UKGuy]

BR told Detective Patterson in his interview the day after Christmas, that he wore blue fuzzy pajamas on CHRISTMAS NIGHT.

Cottonstar,
Well observed, this is significant.

Although it's currently circumstantial it does implicate Burke Ramsey further.

I forget if Kolar said if the pajama bottoms had been entered as forensic evidence, or there were only photographs available?

Presumably Burke Ramsey wore the same pajamas on Christmas Eve?

I think I now know what Kolar was hinting at in his book regarding Burke Ramsey!

.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Cover your ears if you don't want to hear about female hygiene techniques of the late 20th century.

Quite right, douching would never be recommended for a six-year-old. These days, it isn't recommended at all! But back then, women routinely douched, often with plain water or a mild (NOT "industrial") solution after intercourse, menstruation, or just for general "freshness." It was considered part of proper ladylike hygiene. Patsy might well have thought her daughter would benefit from it

Let's not act like 1996 was the dark ages. My gynecologist told me in 1993 to never douche. By 1995, it was the common advice and not seen as ladylike at all. I think these kinds of suppositions do more harm than good.

 

[Rain on my Parade]

BPD have not stated that John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna was not found on JonBenet's clothing, due to environmental transfer in the house they expect it to be present, so implicitly they do not rate it as forensic evidence.

UKGuy,
But what does Bode say about this?
On the exterior top left half of long johns “contains a mixture of at least two individuals including the victim and at least one male contributor.” It excludes John, Melinda and John Andrew Ramsey. “The profiles associated with Burke Ramsey and Patricia Ramsey cannot be included or excluded from the mixture DNA profiles.”

So the issue is was John or Burke Ramsey's touch-dna found on the inside of JonBenet's underwear or under the waistband of the longjohns?

Everyone expects it to be present, but the big question where, what is the location?

Are you referring to this in reference to your question?
3. The interior top right half of the long johns “was deemed unsuitable for any further comparison purposes.”

4. The interior top left half of the long johns “contains a mixture of at least three individuals including the victim and at least one male contributor.”…deemed unsuitable for any further comparison purposes.”

Or, is there further updated touch dna test results that you are referring to?

I believe the truth is buried beneath a mountain of paperwork. The R’s have been exonerated and BR was not nor will ever be considered a suspect in this case.

I think I now know what Kolar was hinting at in his book regarding Burke Ramsey!

Yes, the color blue. He was there that night doing nasty deeds. He rained all over JB’s parade.