Lisa and the river

[Whisperer]

I was looking for information on how women kill and most common disposal methods. I was sure I'd read somewhere, and now can't find it, that women tend to wrap and use water as a disposal method. If anyone comes across that can you link me?

But during that searching, I came across this, which is quite interesting regarding women murderers, and quite surprising to me (I admittedly have my head in the sand about moms killing their babies).

http://crime.about.com/od/female_offenders/a/mother_killers.htm

A look at the rolls of women who are currently on death row, and the crimes that put them there, shows that women who kill their children are indeed not as rare as we would like to believe. Of the 49 women on death row, 11 killed children.

My experience tells me that women often use water as the means but not as the disposal but I don't have the info to back up my statement...I am speculating.

I shared an office and worked with a woman who killed her child (18 mos). She told LE the child was abucted, that somebody came in the house and took her. She was OCD to the extreme.

 

[norest4thewicked]

My experience tells me that women often use water as the means but not as the disposal but I don't have the info to back up my statement.

I shared an office and worked with a woman who killed her child (18 mos)

I know what you mean. I have heard for years that women put bodies in water and men in the earth, but can't find where I have heard it at. I've heard it more than a few times too.

That had to be horrible to realize after the fact that you worked with this person....

 

[Whisperer]

I know what you mean. I have heard for years that women put bodies in water and men in the earth, but can't find where I have heard it at. I've heard it more than a few times too.

That had to be horrible to realize after the fact that you worked with this person....

It was like a war zone. I expected bad behavior of the inmates but not the staff who are there to help them. There were fifteen of us and seven were dead in the first five years.

I gave enough signals to admin but they paid me no mind. They told me to move but did nothing about her. She acted odd...and I was concerned but I never thought she would murder...but trust me her behavior was weird and she was a major drama queen. I moved out of that office two weeks prior due to her behavior. The constant cleaning was too much. Sure enough the baby was found in the trash...just like she did with every single thing in that office. If it wasn't locked down, it went in the trash. She drowned her in the tub. It was very sad.

 

[Whisperer]

I have never thought of the river, as far as Lisa goes, and DB carrying this out. I see that many here have and it seemed like a good way to get rid of a body but I cannot picture DB putting her in the river. I need to know more about DB. The river is so vast and quick moving. I see more of a man doing that than a mother. I could be totally wrong.

It is very important to know the habits and routine of the suspect. I know her judgement is impaired. I know she may be OCD but I suspect another diagnosis also. I know nothing about her day or routine. Yes, I suspect she did something. Whether she remembers it or not is the question. I would guess she remembers but she could have blacked out or in a fog due to meds and alcohol.

She appears to be the defiant type. Did she go to the river with Lisa? Don't know. Did she go there before? Was it a spot she liked? If so, then I could put that on the list as a possibility. She would be more likely to place her in a familiar place.

 

[Whisperer]

Samantha B should be able to provide much information about DB, JI and the entire day and night. It appears she is supporting the parents but sometimes that can be changed. What is her association with Mike L? Is she still talking with him?

There are enough people in this case to throw blame around. Which one is telling the truth would be the hardest thing to figure out. Clearly, DB and JI are not telling the truth...IMO.

 

[Whisperer]

fftopic:

two day old baby taken from hospital seven hours ago in Contra Costa. LE is stressing the child is NOT in danger. I have a feeling they are saying that to keep the darn father calm who stole her. He is 18 yrs old. Say a prayer. That baby needs to eat by now..oh my.

What is wrong with people FGS!!

 

[norest4thewicked]

From the time that I began to believe that DB did something to Lisa, I have thought that she was in the water. I don't believe that any of us can put ourselves into that state of mind to try to figure out what she'd do. If she accidentally overdosed Lisa or forgot her in the bathtub and Lisa drowned, I think that DB would be in such a panic that she would do whatever it took to get rid of Lisa, if that was what she thought she had to do...either because she was drunk and not thinking clearly or because she knew she was responsible and felt that it would be easier to stage an abduction than to admit to her wrongdoing. I just don't see her being able to ask anyone to help her in something like this. I just don't see her having a choice.

 

[norest4thewicked]

fftopic:

two day old baby taken from hospital seven hours ago in Contra Costa. LE is stressing the child is NOT in danger. I have a feeling they are saying that to keep the darn father calm who stole her. He is 18 yrs old. Say a prayer. That baby needs to eat by now..oh my.

What is wrong with people FGS!!

That's horrible!

 

[Whisperer]

I have to keep remembering that most infants are found safe...and quickly.

 

[Whisperer]

Because the mind is not thinking logically at the time of crisis, a parent will usually do what is familiar to them. What I don't know is if DB did this, was she in a black-out, that could change things up. She may have been thinking and not panicking at all.

The only people that wouldn't crack would be Phil and Jeremy but can't imagine them knowing. The one thing we know for sure is that DB is a major chatterbox. So did she tell anyone after the fact? Or did she implicate somebody else? If the river a place that locals gather? We know the pings were close to the house, so my guess is that Lisa is/was also.

I can't even imagine going to the river at night..

 

[KsStormy]

From the time that I began to believe that DB did something to Lisa, I have thought that she was in the water. I don't believe that any of us can put ourselves into that state of mind to try to figure out what she'd do. If she accidentally overdosed Lisa or forgot her in the bathtub and Lisa drowned, I think that DB would be in such a panic that she would do whatever it took to get rid of Lisa, if that was what she thought she had to do...either because she was drunk and not thinking clearly or because she knew she was responsible and felt that it would be easier to stage an abduction than to admit to her wrongdoing. I just don't see her being able to ask anyone to help her in something like this. I just don't see her having a choice.

I am of the same mind... if it ere some sort of accident, such as Deb was moving Lisa & dropped her, hitting her head on the dresser in her bedroom when moving her back to her own bed, for example, or overdose on cold meds, suffocation ( MANY cases of Crib Death have later been exposed as suffocation by an agitated, out-of-control parent) , etc., I can see her panicking & going into "cover-up mode", for fear of losing her son to her ex ( current husband) , knowing she would be blamed due to her intoxication. Or, it would be due to loss of temper, & obvious reason for cover-up. I seriously want to know if there were ANY running vehicle available to her...

 

[norest4thewicked]

I am of the same mind... if it ere some sort of accident, such as Deb was moving Lisa & dropped her, hitting her head on the dresser in her bedroom when moving her back to her own bed, for example, or overdose on cold meds, suffocation ( MANY cases of Crib Death have later been exposed as suffocation by an agitated, out-of-control parent) , etc., I can see her panicking & going into "cover-up mode", for fear of losing her son to her ex ( current husband) , knowing she would be blamed due to her intoxication. Or, it would be due to loss of temper, & obvious reason for cover-up. I seriously want to know if there were ANY running vehicle available to her...

I have heard from some comments that the vehicle in the driveway was drivable and from others that it was not drivable. I know one of the neighbors (I think) said that it was always in the same place, so I don't know and I don't think that there is any absolute verification on this. And, of course there would be those who say that the cars have all been searched and cleared.

 

[iamnotagolem]

I sometimes wonder if Lisa died of SIDs. Here are 2 things we know they didn't do to prevent SIDS:

6. Avoid exposing the infant to tobacco smoke. Don't have your infant in the same house or car with someone who is smoking. The greater the exposure to tobacco smoke, the greater the risk of SIDS.

7. Breast-feed babies whenever possible. Breast milk decreases the occurrence of respiratory and gastrointestinal infections. Studies show that breast-fed babies have a lower SIDS rate than formula-fed babies do.



I know the panic of waking up and your child not breathing, in mere seconds so much runs through your mind. You go from 0-800 in .02 seconds. Thankfully my son always started breathing as soon as I woke him up, before I could even wake my husband up.

 

[Whisperer]

The white car they use was home that night. JI took the van.

 

[KsStormy]

Thanks, NoR4W. What I think many people don't understand is just how bad the Mo river flooding really WAS.... this in itself would present a HUGE question of why NOT the river?? Just take a little bit & look up pics & videos of last summer's floods, to me it seems silly to disregard the river for ANY other place ,if we are talking about disposal of a body. Everyone in this area knew about the horrible, historic flooding. Everyone here KNOWS the history that the River has with bodies ( see Missouri River Killer, or Independence Avenue Killer,etc.) ... and the closest access to the river from the Irwin house is less than 3 minutes.
I have driven it, but have not got out & walked down to the river from that spot, as it Terrified me to be there. An older , local gentleman took it upon himself to try it, & reported it took him 20 minutes. Is this just TOO easy, the quickest, most likely place, just TOO obvious? I remember someone from KCPD saying something about how this case won't be solved for years -- anyone else remember that??
I Seriously wonder if this is because they believe Lisa is IN that damn RIVER
and they KNOW it's hopeless ...???? I posted the story here last night of the Missouri State trooper who was lost in the flood waters ...
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/296622/3/Body-of-Mo-trooper-discovered-as-crews-fill-hole

-- I wonder if they just know how much it costs to perform these types of searches, & they just can't afford it?? I know they spent a LOT of $$$ looking for the Trooper, to no avail. He was found 200-300 YARDS from where he went missing, by Highway workers. Glean from that what you will.

 

[iamnotagolem]

3 people went over Vernal Falls into the Merced River in July 2011. One was found 17 days later, one was found Nov 29, and one was found in December. It was known where they went into the river, the river is much clearer than the MO, it still took over 6 months to find all of the bodies.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Thanks, NoR4W. What I think many people don't understand is just how bad the Mo river flooding really WAS.... this in itself would present a HUGE question of why NOT the river?? Just take a little bit & look up pics & videos of last summer's floods, to me it seems silly to disregard the river for ANY other place ,if we are talking about disposal of a body. Everyone in this area knew about the horrible, historic flooding. Everyone here KNOWS the history that the River has with bodies ( see Missouri River Killer, or Independence Avenue Killer,etc.) ... and the closest access to the river from the Irwin house is less than 3 minutes.
I have driven it, but have not got out & walked down to the river from that spot, as it Terrified me to be there. An older , local gentleman took it upon himself to try it, & reported it took him 20 minutes. Is this just TOO easy, the quickest, most likely place, just TOO obvious? I remember someone from KCPD saying something about how this case won't be solved for years -- anyone else remember that??
I Seriously wonder if this is because they believe Lisa is IN that damn RIVER
and they KNOW it's hopeless ...???? I posted the story here last night of the Missouri State trooper who was lost in the flood waters ...
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/296622/3/Body-of-Mo-trooper-discovered-as-crews-fill-hole

-- I wonder if they just know how much it costs to perform these types of searches, & they just can't afford it?? I know they spent a LOT of $$$ looking for the Trooper, to no avail. He was found 200-300 YARDS from where he went missing, by Highway workers. Glean from that what you will.

I remember reading about the Trooper and his dog, and how sad that was.

My thoughts about Lisa being in the river were partially because of the terrible flooding and just what you said above. This would be so easy. We had historic flooding here in Nashville in 2010 and that water just is so destructive and runs so fast. And, the Cumberland river that flooded here had nowhere near the power of the "Muddy Mo".

 

[redheadedgal]

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports that women are likely to dispose of their children's bodies in ways suggestive of returning them to the womb — swaddled in blankets, wrapped in plastic, submerged in water.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18151310

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I would think with the flooding it would be even harder to get to the banks of the river. I live within a few minutes of both the Wabash and the Ohio, and when they flood, you can't walk to the rivers edge b/c simply, you can't tell where you are. The water in New Harmony alone was right up to the steps of the tourist center. To walk to the river could mean falling in yourself in flood stages.

 

[norest4thewicked]

The National Center for Missing and Exploited Children reports that women are likely to dispose of their children's bodies in ways suggestive of returning them to the womb — swaddled in blankets, wrapped in plastic, submerged in water.


http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_18151310

Thank you for this. I knew I wasn't going crazy and that I had read it before.

BBM - Both of these things are what I believe....sadly...