Lisa and the river

[norest4thewicked]

InDaMiddle and I both said that; for me, the statement comes from knowing the area and I'm certain InDaMiddle would say the same.

Brighton Ave was my alternate commuter route when there was an accident or traffic build up on 435. There are also casinos; I always went to Harrah's NKC, [spent enough time there to be comped trips to other Harrah's casinos around the country] I know that area. Armour Rd./210 has traffic 24/7 from the casino, as well as truckers. The casino part is a large boat on the water because that is what city regulation requires. There are security cameras with a water view. The same goes for casinos on the other [east] side of 435, away from Brighton Ave and Lister.

Harrah's North Kansas City
1 Riverboat Drive
North Kansas City, MO 64116
Directions
From Interstate 35:
Take exit 6A, 210 East (Armour Road) approximately one mile to Chouteau Trafficway. Go right heading south on Chouteau one-half block. Harrah's entrance is on the right.
From Interstate 435:
Take exit 55A, 210 West (Armour Road) approximately two miles to Chouteau Trafficway. Go south one-quarter mile to the entrance.

Yes, I'm familiar. I lived in Liberty for 10 years and worked downtown. We just moved from there 3 years ago. I used the same route. I am actually more interested in the Argosy Casino area.

 

[In da Middle]

Someone said on another thread (I think it was In Da Middle) that it would be difficult to get to the river from DB's house. Does anyone have any photos of the terrain going down to the river? Also, how far are the closest bridges to Lisa's house? TIA

I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

 

[Jacie Estes]

Last summer, 2011, was a 100 year flood event on the Missouri River. This originated in North Dakota, Montana and other north areas because of way above average snow pack. The flood extende all the way into southern areas with the loss of MANY homes. While there are locks and damns and retention ponds all along the river [that info can be found in the other river thread] there was major damage. Some of this damage was that riverfronts were eroded, in some places as much as a 20 ft drop, [an erosion of 30-50 feet from the original riverfront] from the bank to water level.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_Missouri_River_floods"]2011 Missouri River floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

I have also seen years where the river water level was so low that traveling on a boat was not easy.

 

[In da Middle]

Are there any locks and dams on the Missouri River in the KC area or just downstream from the KC area? Sometimes bodies have been found in rivers when they got caught in a dam. Of course, with Lisa being so relatively small compared with an adult, I don't know if her little body would get caught as easily.

No locks or damn for hundreds of miles of here. Both upstream or downstream.

I agree. And, I think that it's possible that she went into the river in a container, possibly weighted down. If that is the case, then there might be a better chance for her to be discovered, but not if it stays on the bottom. We do know that many bodies in containers do surface eventually, but a container to hold her little body might not have been that large and could possibly just go along the bottom until it finally stuck somewhere. Horrible thought...

The only thing about that is, they dredge the channel from pretty much bank to bank pretty much on a daily basis. They have to to be able to keep the barge traffic lanes clear. This is why our "floating" casinos here are not actually on the water. The channel is not deep enough in a wide enough area to be able to safely support barge traffic and casino traffic together. It has to be dredged to maintain a wide enough area as it is for just barge traffic. Most everything weighed down right here *should* have been dredged up.

I think the fact that the fire department was doing drills is relevant. I don't know how relevant, a lot of it I think would depend on when she actually was placed in the river, when they started doing drills and how far down the river they (the FD) were. When Nat had originally posted that response from KCPD, my first reaction (which of course may be wrong) was that KCPD was going off an assumption that it is somewhat possible that the FD would had saw something, even with the current the morning of the 4th if BL was placed in the river.

It just so happend that the regularly scheduled training drill was for that very morning. The boat ramp (the only boat ramp in the are until you get to Indep) across from Harrah's is where they take off from. It made good use of their training. They were also in at least 2 more times that month that I know of. Maybe more.

Yes, I'm familiar. I lived in Liberty for 10 years and worked downtown. We just moved from there 3 years ago. I used the same route. I am actually more interested in the Argosy Casino area.

Argosy is quite a bit west of here. Riverside, MO is where it is and they have vastly improved their levees so one would have to cross those to get to the river plus Argosy has a LOT of surveillance! This area is also dredged.

I am in no way saying that the river is not an option, I just don't think it would be right here. There are so many more easier access and more private areas east of 291 highway and north of Parkville.

 

[Jacie Estes]

I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

http://www.wxnation.com/kansascity/webcams/

 

[norest4thewicked]

I said it would be difficult in the middle of the night. During the day, not so much. No comparison to the difference maneuvering around obstacles are when you can see them or when you can't. It's not just like it looks on the maps. On the maps, you don't see the fenced off areas either.

The closest bridge is Chouteau Bridge. What most maps don't show you now is the new walkway that has barriers to cross to even get to the edge if you were to leave a vehicle and try to get to the edge to toss something over. The water doesn't even start until you are quite a distance across the river also. It would be very obvious if a vehicle was stopped on the bridge and somebody was to get out and cross over to the pedestrian area. It's a long, very hilly walk to that bridge from here plus many businesses with surveillance right there. Traffic at all times due to trucks going in and out of the industrial parks to the immediate south of it and a casino to the immediate north.

All of the other bridges in the city have traffic cams that are ptz cams.

I wonder who monitors the PTZ cams if they have them on bridges? That would be quite a big job.

 

[norest4thewicked]

Last summer, 2011, was a 100 year flood event on the Missouri River. This originated in North Dakota, Montana and other north areas because of way above average snow pack. The flood extende all the way into southern areas with the loss of MANY homes. While there are locks and damns and retention ponds all along the river [that info can be found in the other river thread] there was major damage. Some of this damage was that riverfronts were eroded, in some places as much as a 20 ft drop, [an erosion of 30-50 feet from the original riverfront] from the bank to water level.

2011 Missouri River floods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have also seen years where the river water level was so low that traveling on a boat was not easy.

Yes, that was a horrible event! With all that high and fast water, that would seem to be a good place to throw a tiny body (as awful as that sounds), but, at the same time, so much surfaces after flooding, you'd have thought that if she was in the water, that she would have somehow surfaced, especially if she was in a container.

 

[norest4thewicked]

The thing about Casino cameras is that they are taped over and unless LE contacted every casino within a couple of days of Lisa's disappearance, they would not be available. I also don't know if every casino would have been checked. But, as IDM says, there are so many other private areas that it would seem to make no sense to go to a casino area where there are so many people.

 

[dog.gone.cute]

Please put your thoughts here about Lisa and the river. There has been too much off topic discussion about the river and no thread for it.

JMO ... but I have always thought that the river was a "possibility" ...

The river is close to the home ...
The river is a "quick" and easy place to "dump" -- especially a "baby" ...
The river current was "running fast" ...

It would NOT surprise me in the least IF this is what happened ...

All MOO ...

 

[iamnotagolem]

I know we've talked a lot about the direct route from the house to the river, but I think considering down river dumps is a good idea, too.

I wonder if there were any reports that night of anyone tossing things off a bridge. I know some places actually post all police calls in their local papers, I wonder if there is a way to go back and see if there were any police calls for any suspicious activity along the river or on bridges. Really anywhere along the river, but primarily downstream, as that would make the most sense.

ps. awesome thread idea

 

[Jacie Estes]

No locks or damn for hundreds of miles of here. Both upstream or downstream.


The only thing about that is, they dredge the channel from pretty much bank to bank pretty much on a daily basis. They have to to be able to keep the barge traffic lanes clear. This is why our "floating" casinos here are not actually on the water. The channel is not deep enough in a wide enough area to be able to safely support barge traffic and casino traffic together. It has to be dredged to maintain a wide enough area as it is for just barge traffic. Most everything weighed down right here *should* have been dredged up.

It just so happend that the regularly scheduled training drill was for that very morning. The boat ramp (the only boat ramp in the are until you get to Indep) across from Harrah's is where they take off from. It made good use of their training. They were also in at least 2 more times that month that I know of. Maybe more.

Argosy is quite a bit west of here. Riverside, MO is where it is and they have vastly improved their levees so one would have to cross those to get to the river plus Argosy has a LOT of surveillance! This area is also dredged.

I am in no way saying that the river is not an option, I just don't think it would be right here. There are so many more easier access and more private areas east of 291 highway and north of Parkville.

Exactly, Argosy is up-river. Parkville has much better access to the river BUT it has more traffic and we know how far that is from Lister.

 

[iamnotagolem]

What if the river was accessed at Birmingham Levee Rd? It's 2.3 miles from the house, it's a 7 min drive.

 

[4Jacy]

IF, DB is responsible for Lisa's demise, there is no way she could have thrown her in the river. I'm sure if she did that she would be insane by now. Someone else had to do that for her.

Oh, the horror of all this, what the he// is wrong with people today!

 

[iamnotagolem]

I was looking for information on how women kill and most common disposal methods. I was sure I'd read somewhere, and now can't find it, that women tend to wrap and use water as a disposal method. If anyone comes across that can you link me?

But during that searching, I came across this, which is quite interesting regarding women murderers, and quite surprising to me (I admittedly have my head in the sand about moms killing their babies).

http://crime.about.com/od/female_offenders/a/mother_killers.htm

A look at the rolls of women who are currently on death row, and the crimes that put them there, shows that women who kill their children are indeed not as rare as we would like to believe. Of the 49 women on death row, 11 killed children.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I know we've talked a lot about the direct route from the house to the river, but I think considering down river dumps is a good idea, too.

I wonder if there were any reports that night of anyone tossing things off a bridge. I know some places actually post all police calls in their local papers, I wonder if there is a way to go back and see if there were any police calls for any suspicious activity along the river or on bridges. Really anywhere along the river, but primarily downstream, as that would make the most sense.

ps. awesome thread idea

That's a good idea. Does anyone know if it would be possible to find any info on this. It is a shot in the dark, but certainly would be a HUGE thing in this case! I will see what I can find out.

 

[vlpate]

The thing about Casino cameras is that they are taped over and unless LE contacted every casino within a couple of days of Lisa's disappearance, they would not be available. I also don't know if every casino would have been checked. But, as IDM says, there are so many other private areas that it would seem to make no sense to go to a casino area where there are so many people.

Casinos are required to keep the tapes for seven days, but many keep them longer, up to six months, according to a friend who has worked in Casinos for about 15 years.

They did a search around a casino, IIRC, early on, but I don't recall the circumstances.

 

[DeAnn]

Glad to see a river thread.

I know a lot of videos on this story aren't on the web anymore and many of you unlike InDaMiddle and me weren't following this story from the initial moments. So seeing the local stuff before it went national might be interesting to ya'll.

Here's video from a local television station's 10 p.m. news on Oct. 4.

You can see the river search from that first day and that officers with flashlights were searching behind baby Lisa's home that first night. Dogs were still out at 10 p.m. at night.

You can also see the work vehicle being apparently searched.

Wasn't sure what thread to put this in so chose this one.

http://www.kctv5.com/story/15611288/police-10-month-old-girl-abducted

 

[Jacie Estes]

As per the video Deann posted; Lisa's bedroom window was 'askew'. Solidifies the intruder theory for me.

 

[iamnotagolem]

As per the video Deann posted; Kisa's bedroom window was 'askew'. Solidifies the intruder theory for me.

I'm pretty sure that was based on the early reports that the window at the front of the house, with the screen bent, was Lisa's room. That was later corrected to the front window being the window to the computer room and Lisa's room was at the back of the house, from the back of the house Lisa's room is on the 2nd story (there is a basement & garage under the house).

 

[norest4thewicked]

Casinos are required to keep the tapes for seven days, but many keep them longer, up to six months, according to a friend who has worked in Casinos for about 15 years.

They did a search around a casino, IIRC, early on, but I don't recall the circumstances.

That's interesting because I got different information on the cameras.

I know that they keep the cameras inside the casino for a longer period in case they need to refer back to it regarding a casino gambler, but that isn't the type of cameras that we are talking about. We are talking about cameras that record outside the area, around the perimeter, roads in the area, etc.