Lisa and the river

[norest4thewicked]

I would think with the flooding it would be even harder to get to the banks of the river. I live within a few minutes of both the Wabash and the Ohio, and when they flood, you can't walk to the rivers edge b/c simply, you can't tell where you are. The water in New Harmony alone was right up to the steps of the tourist center. To walk to the river could mean falling in yourself in flood stages.

There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river. And, I just confirmed through Jim Spellman that there was an operable vehicle there that night at DB's disposal.

 

[redheadedgal]

There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river...

doesn't really make sense to me that someone would use a bridge though... too much risk of someone driving by... ??


norest-- btw, i left a comment for you in the thread by superdave re: naming his book in the JBR forum

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

There are plenty of bridges in KC to throw something into the river. And, I just confirmed through Jim Spellman that there was an operable vehicle there that night at DB's disposal.

I was referring to the flooding that was mentioned earlier, the bridges would be there flooding or no flooding. I just read jim Spellmans thread, he also stated that the car has not moved if I am reading that correctly.

 

[norest4thewicked]

doesn't really make sense to me that someone would use a bridge though... too much risk of someone driving by... ??

Oh I definitely don't think it was the main bridge going into town.

norest-- btw, i left a comment for you in the thread by superdave re: naming his book in the JBR forum

Ok...thanks...

 

[redheadedgal]

but the ppl who've stated that vehicle has not moved wouldn't have watched it that particular night though...

it might not have moved since oct 3/4...

but it doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't driven that night ...

 

[norest4thewicked]

I was referring to the flooding that was mentioned earlier, the bridges would be there flooding or no flooding. I just read jim Spellmans thread, he also stated that the car has not moved if I am reading that correctly.

There were 3 vehicles there. One of them was their regular vehicle that they use (that one worked). There were 2 others at the end of the driveway. One did not work and it is unknown whether the other one worked or not.

 

[hambirg]

What I don't understand is the idea that you have to be right on the river. Now granted I don't live near a large river, but I do live near Puget Sound. If somebody is going to throw something in the Sound they wouldn't walk right up to the bank and drop it in, they'd fling it as far as they can. Wouldn't somebody do the same in a river, so it goes out more towards the middle as opposed to getting hung up on the bank? :waitasec:

 

[norest4thewicked]

What I don't understand is the idea that you have to be right on the river. Now granted I don't live near a large river, but I do live near Puget Sound. If somebody is going to throw something in the Sound they wouldn't walk right up to the bank and drop it in, they'd fling it as far as they can. Wouldn't somebody do the same in a river, so it goes out more towards the middle as opposed to getting hung up on the bank? :waitasec:

Exactly! I never figured that part out either, except that little Lisa weighed close to 30#, I think. And, the same goes for a bridge, which would even be easier to do. You obviously wouldn't drive to the very top of the bridge. Go toward the bottom and swing your arm out as far as you can.

 

[hambirg]

Exactly! I never figured that part out either, except that little Lisa weighed close to 30#, I think. And, the same goes for a bridge, which would even be easier to do. You obviously wouldn't drive to the very top of the bridge. Go toward the bottom and swing your arm out as far as you can.

Yep, and the whole thing about Lisa being 30lbs is hooey. She would be waaaay off the charts for her age if she was 30lbs. She looked pretty average, and the growth charts for a girl her age at 50th percentile would be 19lbs. . .even at the 95th percentile she would only be 24lbs.

 

[cityslick]

I'm going to with the fact that DB was at the very least buzzed, possibly flat out intoxicated. Shane mentioned when he saw the women outside it was pretty obvious they had been drinking. That being said, I do wonder if she was drunk enough to blow a .08 on a breathalyzer. I wonder if she would take that chance of getting into a car, trying to find a remote spot at the river where she could dump the body and then get back, risking a) someone seeing her and b) getting pulled over. I can't see someone doing this on a bridge though. Too risky, they wouldn't even know if there were cameras on the bridge and also better chance someone driving will see them.

 

[Jacie Estes]

IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.


http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...NaXW2AX4rpSNCA&sqi=2&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAw&dur=2464

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_River"]Missouri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Missouririvermap.jpg

Commercial terminals on Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/144 Appendix B-1.pdf

Vertical clearance tables of Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/143 Appendix A-1.pdf

Boat ramps on the Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/22 Index 3.pdf

The Missouri is a big and demanding river. Keep in mind:
•On windy days can look more like a large reservoir with white-capped waves that can easily swamp a canoe.
•There are no rapids, but sunken sandbars, snags--uprooted trees stuck in the river bottom--that may or may not be visible above the water's surface, and other obstacles abound.
•An eddy is a sure sign of an obstacle just below the water's surface.
•The Missouri can be quite deep--20 feet or more in places.
•Know your paddling ability and don't exceed it.
•The thalweg or channel will change its course from year to year. This ten- to twenty-foot deep channel is constantly moving as it erodes banks, islands and sandbars and then builds up new sandbars or adds onto existing ones.
http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/canoeing-and-kayaking.htm

River mileage begins at the mouth of the Missouri just north of St. Louis, MO. From river mile 0 to 752 (near Ponca State Park, NE), the river is channelized for barge navigation http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/boating-in-the-mnrr.htm

List of tributaries of the Missouri River-Mouth to Kansas City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_the_Missouri_River#Mouth_to_Kansas_City

 

[redheadedgal]

IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.

seems KC LE would disagree:

Now the Big Muddy around Kansas City has emerged as a secluded, silent and efficient helper to killers.

"I think people think when bodies are thrown in there they just disappear," said Bob Teichman, sheriff of Lafayette County, one of several counties in the Kansas City area bordering the river.

"They think they're getting rid of the evidence--which sometimes they do," Teichman said. "But in the last 10 years, we've probably pulled out about 10 or more bodies."

Bent agrees, saying killers are drawn to the river because the water can break down corpses, and then wash them away.


http://articles.latimes.com/1995-01-08/news/mn-17484_1_missouri-river


*plus, smaller objects might not get "caught" as easily... and if they did, they'd be easier to break apart if snagged/entangled imo.

 

[DeAnn]

Not that I ever would but if I'm wanting to quickly dump a body into the Missouri River I'm doing it at La Benite Park. That's where I thought the Porter kids were dumped (I was wrong. I suck at Nancy Drew).

http://wikimapia.org/7667480/La-Benite-Park-Sugar-Creek-MO

Quick easy access and known hangout for sex. So a car coming and going at night wouldn't attract a lot of attention but it's a quiet area at night (you can see it from the 291 bridge over the Missouri River) Turn off your car lights and you probably could get in and out without being detected. To my knowledge, this area was not searched but it's like 20-25 minutes from Lister.

But then again.....if I grew up in Independence and eastern Jackson county and wanted to dump a body I'd go for the Little Blue River, not the Missouri River.That's where Summer Shipp was found. Her body was so decomposed that no arrest has been made even though police have a person of interest.


I wouldn't dump a body off the I-435 or Choteau Missouri River bridges because of the traffic.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I'm going to with the fact that DB was at the very least buzzed, possibly flat out intoxicated. Shane mentioned when he saw the women outside it was pretty obvious they had been drinking. That being said, I do wonder if she was drunk enough to blow a .08 on a breathalyzer. I wonder if she would take that chance of getting into a car, trying to find a remote spot at the river where she could dump the body and then get back, risking a) someone seeing her and b) getting pulled over. I can't see someone doing this on a bridge though. Too risky, they wouldn't even know if there were cameras on the bridge and also better chance someone driving will see them.

But, what if she wasn't too drunk to drive? I mean, not making light of this, but if you have a dead child to dispose of and you have a choice of driving drunk and possibly getting caught or doing nothing and positively being caught, I think that I know what I would do. And, who knows if someone in that state of panic would even think about cameras being on bridges?

 

[norest4thewicked]

IF Lisa had been placed in the river, by any means/conditions, her body would either catch in submerged debris, catch in a boat ramp or docking facility for any of the numerous commercial terminals along the course of the river from KCMO to east of KCMO or would wash up on any of numerous sites along the river east of KCMO. Failing all of these the body would be stopped at the confluence of the Missouri and Mississippi.




http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...NaXW2AX4rpSNCA&sqi=2&ved=0CE4Q9QEwAw&dur=2464

Missouri River - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Missouririvermap.jpg

Commercial terminals on Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/144 Appendix B-1.pdf

Vertical clearance tables of Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/143 Appendix A-1.pdf

Boat ramps on the Missouri:
http://www.nwk.usace.army.mil/rivercharts/Current/22 Index 3.pdf

The Missouri is a big and demanding river. Keep in mind:
•On windy days can look more like a large reservoir with white-capped waves that can easily swamp a canoe.
•There are no rapids, but sunken sandbars, snags--uprooted trees stuck in the river bottom--that may or may not be visible above the water's surface, and other obstacles abound.
•An eddy is a sure sign of an obstacle just below the water's surface.
•The Missouri can be quite deep--20 feet or more in places.
•Know your paddling ability and don't exceed it.
•The thalweg or channel will change its course from year to year. This ten- to twenty-foot deep channel is constantly moving as it erodes banks, islands and sandbars and then builds up new sandbars or adds onto existing ones.
http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/canoeing-and-kayaking.htm

River mileage begins at the mouth of the Missouri just north of St. Louis, MO. From river mile 0 to 752 (near Ponca State Park, NE), the river is channelized for barge navigation http://www.nps.gov/mnrr/planyourvisit/boating-in-the-mnrr.htm

List of tributaries of the Missouri River-Mouth to Kansas City
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tributaries_of_the_Missouri_River#Mouth_to_Kansas_City

I don't agree that anything is positive in this case and I don't believe that any of us can say that Lisa's body definitely would have done anything specific, if it was in the river. There are just too many variables.

 

[Sparklin]

I sometimes wonder if Lisa died of SIDs. Here are 2 things we know they didn't do to prevent SIDS:

6. Avoid exposing the infant to tobacco smoke. Don't have your infant in the same house or car with someone who is smoking. The greater the exposure to tobacco smoke, the greater the risk of SIDS.

7. Breast-feed babies whenever possible. Breast milk decreases the occurrence of respiratory and gastrointestinal infections. Studies show that breast-fed babies have a lower SIDS rate than formula-fed babies do.



I know the panic of waking up and your child not breathing, in mere seconds so much runs through your mind. You go from 0-800 in .02 seconds. Thankfully my son always started breathing as soon as I woke him up, before I could even wake my husband up.

sorry, but how do we know they smoked in the house with the kids? How do we know that Deb didn't breast feed?

 

[norest4thewicked]

Not that I ever would but if I'm wanting to quickly dump a body into the Missouri River I'm doing it at La Benite Park. That's where I thought the Porter kids were dumped (I was wrong. I suck at Nancy Drew).

http://wikimapia.org/7667480/La-Benite-Park-Sugar-Creek-MO

Quick easy access and known hangout for sex. So a car coming and going at night wouldn't attract a lot of attention but it's a quiet area at night (you can see it from the 291 bridge over the Missouri River) Turn off your car lights and you probably could get in and out without being detected. To my knowledge, this area was not searched but it's like 20-25 minutes from Lister.

But then again.....if I grew up in Independence and eastern Jackson county and wanted to dump a body I'd go for the Little Blue River, not the Missouri River.That's where Summer Shipp was found. Her body was so decomposed that no arrest has been made even though police have a person of interest.


I wouldn't dump a body off the I-435 or Choteau Missouri River bridges because of the traffic.

I've lived in Kansas City and while there is a lot of traffic during the day, there is a lot less traffic at 1:30 in the morning on a week night. The point is that there are a lot of places a lot closer to the N. Lister house that DB could have driven to, dumped Lisa and driven back home. Sure, she would have had to wait for traffic (if there even was any), but she could jump out of her car, throw something over the side of a bridge and jump back in in less than 30 seconds. The point is that this could have happened. In fact, I will even go so far as to say that I find this scenario as believable, if not more so, than to think that someone came into the house, stripped Lisa, burned her clothes, and then carried her around town for 4 hours.

 

[cityslick]

But, what if she wasn't too drunk to drive? I mean, not making light of this, but if you have a dead child to dispose of and you have a choice of driving drunk and possibly getting caught or doing nothing and positively being caught, I think that I know what I would do. And, who knows if someone in that state of panic would even think about cameras being on bridges?

You may be right, of course it's all speculation. I think most of us agree that no matter what happened that night, it was not a pre planned event, at least there is no evidence to indicate that it was. So everything would of been seat of the pants, first thing that pops in your head as far as what she (or anyone) would do with BL once out of the house. What draws me away from her using any sort of vehicle is the fact that LE didn't seem to put enough into that theory to look at them further. They were never seized for further processing. I've been around enough of these missing child cases to know that most times the vehicles of the parent caring for the child are the first thing to get taken if LE has even of whiff that they were somewhat involved in transporting. We're all under the assumption that LE knows more than anyone here. I have to think if they thought the cars would somewhat play into what went on that night, they would of took them.

 

[Dewey2Me1MoThyme]

I don't agree that anything is positive in this case and I don't believe that any of us can say that Lisa's body definitely would have done anything specific, if it was in the river. There are just too many variables.

In fact we don't know Lisa is dead, who removed her alive or dead from the home, or for what reason, so any speculation is just that at this point.

 

[norest4thewicked]

You may be right, of course it's all speculation. I think most of us agree that no matter what happened that night, it was not a pre planned event, at least there is no evidence to indicate that it was. So everything would of been seat of the pants, first thing that pops in your head as far as what she (or anyone) would do with BL once out of the house. What draws me away from her using any sort of vehicle is the fact that LE didn't seem to put enough into that theory to look at them further. They were never seized for further processing. I've been around enough of these missing child cases to know that most times the vehicles of the parent caring for the child are the first thing to get taken if LE has even of whiff that they were somewhat involved in transporting. We're all under the assumption that LE knows more than anyone here. I have to think if they thought the cars would somewhat play into what went on that night, they would of took them.

I know what you are saying. My only thought about this is that Lisa was wrapped and sealed so well, that the dog missed it. I am just speculating, as we all are.