Lloyd Welch is Person of Interest

[siriunsun]

I think it's really only various media outlets that are confused about LLW's date of birth. He does possess a birth certificate, somewhere, and while the recorded time may be a few minutes away from the actual moment of his birth, by the late fifties, Americans, by and large, had birth certificates. It is not as if LLW was conceived and born prior to the Civil War........:facepalm:

LLW is young enough to still be remembered by family members, teachers, and neighbors; and some of those people have, undoubtedly, filled in most of the blanks for law enforcement in order to answer questions about his whereabouts at key times in relation to this case. Otherwise, he would never have been named a poi. While police officers occasionally do completely outrageous and unacceptable things in order to garner confessions and prove theories, it seems unlikely that any cop would have closed his or her eyes, opened a book of mugshots, and pointed blindly and LLW's picture and decided to open up a case against him for the Lyon sisters! Yes; evidence of which the general public is not aware actually exists.

I find it frustrating that so many people enjoy discussion of LLW's "difficult" childhood, or "bad" upbringing when neither of those things have anything to do with the case, and neither of those things are evidence or testimony. His childhood was no more "difficult" than the childhood of many an American citizen, and it is unjust to assume that anyone whose childhood featured a certain amount of negativity is destined to become a criminal. Should we assume that Jaycee Dugard will kidnap children just because she became the victim of two obvious experts? Or should we understand that she was and is extremely outraged with them, and will remain so for the rest of her life? LLW chose, on more than one occasion, to become involved in crime and the focus should be on evidence rather than demonizing the rest of his family in hopes of establishing an idea that they "all" have "behaved oddly" over the years. What I really see is two or three family members who have some explaining to do, and possibly one other connected person. Evidence, rather than conjecture and fanning the flames of community biases, are more important here. Hopefully, any witness will feel free to step forward, despite all the pressure to "go with the flow" of enabling criminals.

 

[Richard]

We do know those few details, but Where did he live? Who were his guardians? What schools did he attend? etc. Rather than ASSUME that MCP or the FBI knows all this, I prefer to assume that they do not, since they published their timeline without any of this information - and because they were asking the public for assistance and information about him.

A fatal car accident will most certainly affect someone. But just how did it affect Lloyd? This is something that Lloyd would know better than anyone else, perhaps. Or maybe not, depending on how he processed it, along with everything else growing up.

There might be some answers available to MCP if they were to check into Maryland court records which contain Psychological reports.

Those reports were made by court appointed Psychiatrists who determined Lloyd mentally fit to stand trial back in the 1980's for some violent crimes that he was charged with. He first pled "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" but was later found guilty and sentenced.

Those records belong to the state of Maryland, and were obtained legally in the process of assessing Lloyd's mental condition pursuant to a plea made by him through his legal attorney. Those records would contain biographical, schooling, and other details pertinent to Lloyd's attempt to be declared "Insane".

Sometimes such records include other misconduct or crimes not currently charged or from another state which are used in an attempt to support the insanity plea. It is also possible that Lloyd may have referred specifically to the Lyon case when speaking with the Doctors.

 

[siriunsun]

We do know those few details, but Where did he live? Who were his guardians? What schools did he attend? etc.

A fatal car accident will most certainly affect someone. But just how did it affect Lloyd? This is something that Lloyd would know better than anyone else, perhaps. Or maybe not, depending on how he processed it, along with everything else growing up.

There might be some answers available to MCP if they were to check into Maryland court records which contain Psychological reports.

Those reports were made by court appointed Psychiatrists who determined Lloyd mentally fit to stand trial back in the 1980's for some violent crimes that he was charged with. He first pled "Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity" but was later found guilty and sentenced.

Those records belong to the state of Maryland, and were obtained legally in the process of assessing Lloyd's mental condition pursuant to a plea made by him through his legal attorney. Those records would contain biographical, schooling, and other details pertinent to Lloyd's attempt to be declared "Insane".

Sometimes such records include other misconduct or crimes not currently charged or from another state which are used in an attempt to support the insanity plea. It is also possible that Lloyd may have referred specifically to the Lyon case when speaking with the Doctors.

Proving the type of mental illness that disqualify any guilt or responsibility for a crime will be more difficult now than it was during the late 70's and early 80's. Also, that tends to work much better for defendants who work alone, rather than defendants who have accomplices, or ARE accomplices. If mental illness were to play a role in the determination of a decision to forgo prosecution, all of the defendants and accomplices would need to prove mental illness in a case like this; not just one. Besides, many people have been involved in fatal car accidents; it almost never confers a predilection to a life of crime.

 

[Richard]

Proving the type of mental illness that disqualify any guilt or responsibility for a crime will be more difficult now than it was during the late 70's and early 80's. Also, that tends to work much better for defendants who work alone, rather than defendants who have accomplices, or ARE accomplices. If mental illness were to play a role in the determination of a decision to forgo prosecution, all of the defendants and accomplices would need to prove mental illness in a case like this; not just one. Besides, many people have been involved in fatal car accidents; it almost never confers a predilection to a life of crime.

Psycological issues may or may not become a part of this case should it go to trial. There are a lot of unknown and possible factors and directions that the case could go, and it is only speculation at this point whether one or more persons might be charged and tried.

I would say, however, that psycological issues might be brought up by any of the defense attorneys who might argue this case, perhaps to argue that one defendant is not mentally capable to stand trial, or by another to argue that a witness is not mentally fit to testify. And although it would most likely be a defense attorney who would bring up such an issue, the prosecution attorneys would anticipate the move and be prepared for it.


The main point of my post was that Lloyd DID try to plead Not Guilty due to Insanity back in the early 1980's (didn't succeed) and because of that, Documentation exists in the Maryland system which might be of use to investigators.

Normally, a doctor - patient relationship, and psycological records are considered privileged and off limits to investigators and inadmissable as evidence.

This is an exception to that rule, however. Because the state appointed the Psychiatrists to evaluate Lloyd in the course of the plea that he and his lawyer made. The Maryland court, therefor owns those reports which might contain information valuable to the investigation.

An example of this sort of thing can be seen in the trials of Fred Howard Coffey, Jr. In 1986, he was prosecuted for multiple child molestation charges and attempted to make a plea indicating that he was mentally ill and not responsible. The North Carolina Court ordered him to undergo Psycological testing, during the course of which he admitted to having molested over 100 children. (He had also murdered some children by then but he did not admit to that - only to molestation.)

In that 1986 trial, he was found guilty of the molestation charges against him, but the Psycological report was NOT used during the "merit" phase of the trial, because it did not contain evidence pertaining to the specific charges. Later, however, during the course of a 1987 Murder trial, that psycological report was introduced during the sentencing phase. That same report has been available to investigators looking into other cases.

 

[siriunsun]

Unless his lawyer was present for the psychiatrist's questions to Coffey, I do not see the particulars of such an evaluation making their way into court. A notable difference here is that this case is suspected to have been carried out with accomplices, in addition to a defendant. Assessing the mental states of all of them may or may not be relevant.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I guess my point in bringing up about the death of his mother in the car accident is; yes many people have witnessed fatal car accidents and survived and have not led a life of crime, however, was it their MOTHER, who was killed perhaps by someone who regularly consumed too much alcohol?

It sounds like there was A LOT of dysfunction in his family life.

However, I am not saying that excuses his bad choices. I was just trying to think about different things which must have contributed to his mental state.

It is good you found that info Richard about the previous plea for insanity.

 

[siriunsun]

I guess LLW's mental state could have been affected by his dad's alcoholism, but I think the enablers in his life and their actions were probably a lot more relevant to any criminal case lodged against him.

 

[steveP120]

We do know those few details, but Where did he live? Who were his guardians? What schools did he attend? etc. Rather than ASSUME that MCP or the FBI knows all this, I prefer to assume that they do not, since they published their timeline without any of this information - and because they were asking the public for assistance and information about him.

And the published timeline missed his Gaithersburg address when ticketed for driving without a driver's license.

I can't really say that if I knew Lloyd's in junior high or high school, that I would call the Washington Post and admit it, but the almost total lack of information is unusual.

If Lloyd was living in Texas, at age 17, he is only placed in Texas on one day for sure, either living there or visiting, he may not have lived long in Maryland prior to the girl's disappearance.

Foster care and/or juvenile records are likely private, and I am not sure just being a bad kid is that relevant. On any given day, there are/were handfuls of bad kids and adults out of the thousands of people that visit any mall on any day.

On the plus side, since only 18 at the time of the disappearance, and if he is guilty, there is likely
1) a limited number of friends and family he could obtain help from or who would notice something incriminating and
2) a limited number of areas he was familiar with where he would think to bury a body, the VA Mountain and Kensington, MD being two.

 

[steveP120]

Also, we still don't know the story of how Lloyd ended up meeting the security guard who took Lloyd to the police.
We don't even know if the police ever found the name of the security guard, they were seeking pubic help in finding, of if the security guard is still alive.

It's possible that Lloyd could have walked up to the security guard and said, "I saw those two girls get into a car. Who do I tell?," which requires the assumption that Lloyd did not know enough to report this to the police and not a mall guard; OK Lloyd is not that bright, or the guard may have been friendly with Lloyd a mall regular.

It's also possible that Lloyd was shooting his mouth off about knowing something to some other kids at the mall, and the kids approached the mall security guard first. What Lloyd was saying at this time could be relevant to the case, if Lloyd is involved in any way even as a witness.

 

[simplifymylife2014]

I just want to add that we DO NOT KNOW 100% that the girls' lives were taken and that they WERE BURIED by ANY POI.

Did you notice in The Washington Post article that LLW2 stepmom said that they can dig the whole mountain down and they won't find anything--because they are "NOT THERE." (Emphasis added)

Ok, so does LLW2 stepmom KNOW WHERE they ARE??!!

 

[Richard]

Also, we still don't know the story of how Lloyd ended up meeting the security guard who took Lloyd to the police.
We don't even know if the police ever found the name of the security guard, they were seeking pubic help in finding, of if the security guard is still alive.

It's possible that Lloyd could have walked up to the security guard and said, "I saw those two girls get into a car. Who do I tell?," which requires the assumption that Lloyd did not know enough to report this to the police and not a mall guard; OK Lloyd is not that bright, or the guard may have been friendly with Lloyd a mall regular.

It's also possible that Lloyd was shooting his mouth off about knowing something to some other kids at the mall, and the kids approached the mall security guard first. What Lloyd was saying at this time could be relevant to the case, if Lloyd is involved in any way even as a witness.

Good comments. Actually, I am pretty certain that Lloyd had the MCP phone number to call, as it was listed in the short 1 April 1975 article which announced the WMAL $7000 Reward. The article stated that the reward would go to the First Person who could provide information leading to the safe return of the girls.

We know that Lloyd saw that article because his stepmother, Edna Welch, said that she recalls Lloyd and his girlfriend Helen sitting on her sofa when the news broke and Lloyd stating his intention to call in a tip to claim the reward. She also stated that Lloyd did, in fact, call in a tip - but offered her opinion that she did not think he knew anything about it.

MCP did ask the public for help in identifying a Wheaton Plaza Security Guard during their 11 February 2014 press briefing. But they did not say why they were seeking him and they did not mention Lloyd approaching him with information on 1 April 1975. It was thought by many at the time that they were referring to a security guard being approached by a 12 year-old girl who might have complained to him about being followed and bothered by a Long Haired Man in his late teens or early 20's (LHM) since they mentioned both together.

If MCP's records are complete, and if Lloyd was referred to them by a security officer, then his name and badge number should be in their files. And since by 1 April 1975 the Lyon case was big news - especially at Wheaton Plaza - one would expect such an encounter to be well documented in the files of the Security Company and Wheaton Plaza.

We do not know the specifics as to how or why Lloyd Welch might have come to the attention of the security guard. But I might speculate that for some reason Lloyd was frustrated in his attempt to call in a tip. Maybe he could not get through, or was put on hold, or maybe not believed by an MCP phone talker.

Since the Reward announcement stated that "the first person" to call in good information leading to the girls return would get the reward, it might have put a sense of urgency in Lloyd's mind as to having to get his information in quickly. Thus a trip to the Mall that same day and his approach to the uniformed guard.

MCP recently stated in their request for a search warrant that Lloyd approached a security guard at Wheaton Plaza and that Security contacted MCP officers who came to the Mall to interview Lloyd. They most likely transported him to one of their stations for further interrogation and administration of the polygraph. They determined that he was being deceptive and ended up dismissing him and disregarding his story about seeing the girls entering a car with a man unknown to him.

To understand all of this, it is important to consider the context of the time. 1 April 1975 was the first day that the reward was offered, but it was also the day that the story about the Tape Recorder Man (TRM) first broke, along with a compsite sketch and description. Lloyd may have recognized TRM and figured that he needed to get his information to MCP quickly, before someone else did.

Release of the TRM sketch and story caused a deluge of phone calls and tips to MCP. Over 15 persons called MCP that very day (1 April) to describe previous encounters with a strange man with a tape recorder trying to "interview" or record the voices of children and young girls. There may have also been an increase of other calls from well wishers, people who thought they could help, and maybe even hoaxers. So there were a lot of phone calls and tips for MCP to sort through.

It seems as if Lloyd Welch, Jr. considered/considers himself primarily an important eyewitness to the abduction of the Lyon sisters, rather than as a perpetrator or accomplice.

He first stated that he just happened to be present at Wheaton Plaza that day, and that he saw someone unknown to him take the girls. In 2013, his story seems to have changed to show that he was more deeply involved or in the know, because he claims to have gotten into the car with the girls, along with his uncle and cousin. Then he adds more to include a second encounter with his uncle molesting one of the girls.

Lloyd paints a picture of closer involvement, but still maintains his innocence. It is possible that he actually believes this to be the case. I suspect that MCP investigators have allowed him this lattitude in their efforts to learn more from him and to find more solid evidence. It was MCP that recently attempted to determine if WMAL would still honor their April 1975 reward offer. Could this have been an attempt to encourage Lloyd?

 

[beachlvr0810]

Activity on Taylor's Mountain!!!!

 

[steveP120]

I just want to add that we DO NOT KNOW 100% that the girls' lives were taken and that they WERE BURIED by ANY POI.

Did you notice in The Washington Post article that LLW2 stepmom said that they can dig the whole mountain down and they won't find anything--because they are "NOT THERE." (Emphasis added)

Ok, so does LLW2 stepmom KNOW WHERE they ARE??!!

It's true that in any murder trial without a body, one can't be 100% sure of a murder or even a death. Beyond a reasonable doubt is the best anyone can do. I believe the newspapers either say the girls just "disappeared" or "are presumed dead."

I have always been skeptical of many mother's claims that their children are innocent, since on any given day in a big city where there is nearly a murder a day, there is a mother in denial that her son is bad.

However, in this case, it appears that the stepmother caught on that Lloyd had problems with the truth and young girls. Lloyd could be innocent or the stepmother in denial that even if not premeditated murderers, something could go wrong in a crime. Lloyd could have acted his same, usual for himself, way in the week of the murder and/or the stepmother may not have heard anything from other family members of the crime.

It would have been difficult for someone of Lloyd's limited resources, but it is possible to bury a body high on that mountain and head back to DC without anyone knowing - but I doubt it would be possible to bury a body 10 yards from the road, where the police were last looking, without anyone knowing something was being burried or dug.

 

[Richard]

.... I believe the newspapers either say the girls just "disappeared" or "are presumed dead."....

Newspaper reporters have always referred to the girls as "missing". They have never been declared dead or declared presumed dead.

Police investigators mentioned very early in the investigation that there were (and are) many reasons that children go missing and that MOST cases resolve themselves when the kids show up after staying at a friends, or getting lost, or running away for a short time, etc. They did state very early, however, that they felt the Lyon case was something more serious from the very beginning.

The girls were normally very prompt and obedient when it came to being home when expected, and they were of a younger age (10 and 12) than older teenagers who were more likely to run away, stay out late, etc.

The possibility of the girls falling in water was checked out when Police divers went into the pond near the Kensington Nursing Home. Door to door searches were conducted, flyers were distributed, TV and newspaper coverage got the word out and all manner of tips and alleged sightings were checked out.

As the "usual" resolutions failed to produce results, the more sinister (and more rare) possibilities seemed to be more likely.

An early search conducted near Rock Creek in the Granby Woods area northwest of Wheaton involved many National Guardsmen, police, helicopters, and volunteers. This was in May 1975, and searchers were briefed to look for possible gravesites, disturbed soil, etc. So, although police were still expressing hope, the possibility that the girls had been abducted and murdered was being strongly considered in the course of that search.

 

[steveP120]

An early search conducted near Rock Creek in the Granby Woods area northwest of Wheaton involved many National Guardsmen, police, helicopters, and volunteers. This was in May 1975, and searchers were briefed to look for possible gravesites, disturbed soil, etc.

Having dug a pet's grave not 100 yards off the path the sisters often walked, it was surprisingly easy to dig and cover up by just spreading leaves on the top. I can barely tell where the grave is. While an expert could spot the grave, I doubt many suburban volunteers could.

I would also speculate that many of the volunteers at the time were hoping to find the girls alive, perhaps injured, or to find evidence that would lead to their safe return, and looking for a grave was not what they wanted to do, or even the highest priority if the girls could still be alive.

 

[beachlvr0810]

http://www.wdbj7.com/news/local/lyo...tors-back-to-taylors-mountain-sunday/31954364

 

[steveP120]

It might be partly better parenting these days, but it also has to be partly caused by Llyon sister case and a handful of other stranger abductions, which IMHO have been overplayed in the press relative to other bad things that could happen (lightning strikes, drownings, car accidents...). Of course even if Llyod never killed a fly, nobody, even his relatives had said, would want Lloyd hanging out with their kids.

From the Washington Post:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...987b08-e188-11e4-905f-cc896d379a32_story.html

‘Free-range children’ taken into custody again in Maryland
The two Montgomery County children who were picked up last year while walking home alone were taken into custody again Sunday, authorities said.

The children of Danielle and Alexander Meitiv were taken into custody by county police at a park about 5 p.m. and turned over to the Child Protective Services agency, said Capt. Paul Starks, the county police spokesman. The children’s mother said they were released to the couple at 10:30 p.m. Sunday.

 

[cgoodwin22]

Stumbling onto Richard Welch' FB page today i noticed he posted an article relating to the Lyon Sisters. I find it 'odd' that a person of interest would post this on his own FB page.

 

[steveP120]

Stumbling onto Richard Welch' FB page today i noticed he posted an article relating to the Lyon Sisters. I find it 'odd' that a person of interest would post this on his own FB page. ]

I also find it odd that anyone would post an old news story. Not only were there NO news stories on the Lyon sisters that showed up in Google News in April, the "Investigators believe Lyon sisters may have been brought to Bedford Co." story was from September, 2014 about six months ago.

A hacked account? A meaningless post? Or a way to point out that the police have nothing that we know of. I am sure his lawyer told him not to talk to anyone about the case, but two men can keep a secret if...

 

[RichardLewis]

I also find it odd that anyone would post an old news story. Not only were there NO news stories on the Lyon sisters that showed up in Google News in April, the "Investigators believe Lyon sisters may have been brought to Bedford Co." story was from September, 2014 about six months ago.

A hacked account? A meaningless post? Or a way to point out that the police have nothing that we know of. I am sure his lawyer told him not to talk to anyone about the case, but two men can keep a secret if...

...one of them is dead. Also, three men can keep a secret if two of them are dead, and so forth...

I suspect that when all is revealed we'll know that there were several persons involved and some are already deceased. Perhaps also a dead brother or dead brother-in-law of Dick's, who was Lloyd's other "second" uncle that Dollie Estep referred to. There is a lot of contemporary research and science that confirms that there is a genetic etiology of pedophilia. Remember, "A tree is known by its fruit."