long weekend break: discuss the latest here #101

[thefragile7393]

You raise some good points. I assume that the disordered personality is Jodi and not the Doc.? But I think this is where JM was foolish. He is NEVER going to illicit the truth from JA. A sociopath and I beleive she is one, is never, never going to have that moment where she breaks down and tells what happened. ANd he looked out of control to me when he had so much "passion". I feel it would have been less grating and more effective had he been less passionate and more methodical. He came off to me almost juvenile in his approach.IMO

He isn't looking for the truth from her. He knows he won't get it. All he has to do is provoke her and let her hang herself. That is exactly what she did. She purjured herself, she got angry, defiant, sarcastic, rude. He got her to show that she was not the meek little downtrodden abused woman she claims to be. It took a bit but I quickly realized what he was doing.

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[Hally]

The judge would have a lot of discretion to decide how to handle it. IMO she decided that the DT would have to keep a better eye on her. Next time she might decide something else. Cuffing to the chair would be a pretty serious choice, given the potential for making the jury think she flipped out and stabbed someone lol. Maybe the judge would try something like having a little separate table for her with no papers or pens on it.

In any event, the jury certainly wouldn't be told that she was passing notes.

Thanks AZLawyer, you're the best. Rut, ruh I just put this ? on the legal thread, so I will say thank - you there, too.

Hmmm, I don't think the jury should see or know, that being said - that should never be a reason, or excuse to allow unruly behavior by a defendant..

 

[josie1986]

Family on DrD did I hear that right?

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[StephanieHartPI]

I will sell my spot in line to the highest bidder. lol

I like Juan, but not ring kissing...

I'd give him a big kiss on the cheek! Of course if he turned, i'm fine with that. (and if he has me arrested, help guys, I will pay you all back to bond me out, just don't call Nurmi)

 

[crimesnooper]

I happen to agree with part of what you posted. Dr. Samuels was hired by the Defense. The Defense is his client, not Jodi. He was sent in to evaluate JA and he did. Unfortunately for him, he was a little sloppy with his ethics and evaluation. I found some of his testimony interesting, and when he was speaking in generalities, I learned something. I think he may be in over his head in this case.

Where I disagree with you is regarding Mr. Martinez. As a homicide survivor, I can honestly say that I would want a prosecutor like him. He is my voice where I have none. He is the voice of the deceased loved ones. I find him very detail oriented, very thorough and easy to listen to. He catches things a lot of people miss. He is the champion we all need where there is injustice. Respectfully, IMO.

First and foremost, I am so sorry that you are a homicide survivor. I can not imagine the pain that you have suffered and I can understand that you would want your voice heard. It's just that I don't feel he this is passion as I said in in my post...and if I, who beleives she murdered him in cold blood, is having that reaction to him..is it possible that one juror might also..thus undermining the goal...conviction. Personally I would be able to set aside my feelings and go with the evidence. But I think it takes more skill to challenge testimony without his insults and bullying and that is what I saw with the Dr.. I think he is obnoxious.

 

[PrincessSezMe]

Originally Posted by Mr Pizza
I haven't been able to watch all of the trial. I have a question that maybe some of you can help me with. I am pretty much the same height and weight as TA but 20 years older. I can think of no way a 115 pound female could stab me 29 times unless I was physically restrained. After the first stab, I would be in fight for survival mode. I might not survive, but she would surely be at least seriously injured if not killed. You might get stabbed once if it was from behind. The second stab would be a glancing blow as you turned towards your attacker. There wouldn't be a 3rd stab wound except maybe a defensive wound to the hands or forearms. I would think any 200 pound man could incapacitate any 115 pound woman with a single blow. From that point it would go very badly for the smaller incapacitated attacker. I believe the gunshot was forensically proven to have occurred after the stabbings. But even at that a .25 pistol is not immediately debilitating under most circumstances. It makes me wonder if that's why JA removed the ropes from the scene. Were they used in the commission of the crime? Was TA tied up either as sex play or at gunpoint before the knife attack occurred?

My comments:

Remember that this murder happened in 62 seconds. Travis was naked, wet, and no doubt this was a surprise attack. I would think that the first stab wound was a great shock to his system. Physically and mentally. I think if I were stabbed my first instinct would be surprise and my hands would go to my wound and/or up to protect myself. Before Travis was able to regroup and perhaps disarm her he was stabbed again and again. By the time he made it to the sink he was dying IMO and would not have been able to do much of anything. He never had a chance.

There's no evidence of rope being used. Just the words from JA's mouth.

Great post, and ITA with you! The ME testified that the stab to the heart would incapacitate him fairly quickly, so I believe it was probably the initial blow, and IMO likely happened as he was attempting to exit the shower. She delivered the remaining frontal stabs as he was staggering towards the sink, which is also when he got all of the defensive wounds to the palms of his hands as he desperately tried to fight her off.

The stabs to the back of his body happened when he managed to get onto his hands and knees and crawl down the hallway (remember when she said he was on all four of his knees when she told the ninja story - I bet he was). The defensive wounds on the backs of his hands were a last feeble attempt to protect the back of his head/neck.

When TA finally collapsed towards the end of the hallway she delivered the second fatal blow, and the picture that spoke a thousand words was taken seconds later as she dragged his prone body back down the hall.

After seeing this thing in court for the past (almost) three months, it does not stretch my imagination in the least to think that she delivered that last shot to the head as a "take that". Or maybe it was because he was still making noises (discussed before). Whatever her sick reasons were, she delivered that final coup de grace.

She needs to be put so far away, that none of us good peeps will ever have to give her another thought. She is frightening. :devil:

 

[crimesnooper]

Question? If this has already been posted, I missed it. But do we know if Travis A's parents are still alive?

 

[BritsKate]

You raise some good points. I assume that the disordered personality is Jodi and not the Doc.? But I think this is where JM was foolish. He is NEVER going to illicit the truth from JA. A sociopath and I beleive she is one, is never, never going to have that moment where she breaks down and tells what happened. ANd he looked out of control to me when he had so much "passion". I feel it would have been less grating and more effective had he been less passionate and more methodical. He came off to me almost juvenile in his approach.IMO

Or both. Disordered personalities are sometimes drawn to psychology and psychiatry themselves as a subconscious attempt at self-medicating. Anyone who might be familiar with symptoms of NPD might've noticed a great deal of those traits with the Doc's testimony.

And psychopaths can and will be honest, though its often believed they can't or won't, but ONLY if doing so is in their own personal best interests. Obviously that's not the case here.

IME, the only way to rattle a psychopath is to get under their skin. You can't do that in a methodical, predictable manner. They're expecting that and will simply manipulate around it. Instead, you have to hold them accountable for their every word, each and every inconsistency, every action, no matter how seemingly benign - and that absolutely infuriates them, which exposes more of the disorder and makes it even more difficult to question them, because they become combative and defiant.

People aren't supposed to disbelieve a psychopath's account - it's against the natural order of things in their world. And Juan is likely one of very few in her life who has done that.

 

[swedie]

Straightening out your head is easier than you think.. You must read between the lines (truths hidden within her lies) of what Jodi Arias actually spouts out of one of her 3 holes (pun intended)...
JA is the Only one who said Travis posed for those photo's..
All the men in my circle do not believe Travis was posing at all.. Except maybe the last few pics where he is in 'sitting' position on the shower floor; very strange when a bathtub is right next to the shower..
My kin thinks Travis was being held either at gun point or JA was flashing the knife threatening to kill Herself (not him) as a way to keep Travis inside that shower laying in wait.. the camera comes into play somewhere in this but my kin can't get crazy minded enough to figure that one out yet
JMO

I've also ponder that it may have been possible for Jodi to have sneaked back into TA after he thought she left. Maybe she did and caught him in the shower and held him at gun point. The whole Ninja story, maybe she came back into his house (through the doggy door) dressed as a Ninja. The one picture of TA's face when he's in the shower, last night they showed it on Dr. Drew and he was saying that there are two people in the reflection of TA's eyes. Did Jodi have help and were they dressed as Ninjas? Is that were she came up with the Ninja story? It's all so crazy. MOO

 

[MistyM]

There are some of us...okay, it might just be me that believes Jodi is a sadistic psychopath.

As such I personally believe the knife was always her primary weapon. Knife wounds are extremely painful, there is some perverse psychology in stabbing a lover you deem has wronged you in the heart, and like many psychopaths before her, they are attracted to the power and dominance weapons symbolize - all weapons. (Recently read an account of a psychopath with a samurai sword collection. That's gotta be safe. )

I think she brought the gun as backup in case Travis was able to get the knife from her - or something else went awry. I also believe she thought it would be so simple as a single stab wound and when he didn't die immediately - and had the gall to actually try to defend himself - it set loose a narcissistic rage which afforded her the opportunity to brutally and heinously overkill her victim.

i quite agree with you. the people who say 'why didn't she just show up and shoot him, why stay and have sex? something must have happened', are thinking what they would do, not what a person like jodi would do. stabbing is so personal and especially in the heart...

 

[TotallyObsessed]

Some of us feel that the sex scenes were faked and TA was actually being tortured in the bedroom. Someone suggested that the photos of him nude on the bed with an anguished expression on his face were not the countenance of a person interested in voluntarily posing for a fun sex play photo, rather a man under duress. Here are some of the points in favor of this theory:

*There is duct tape on his arm. It is not a Body Bug as some suggested (an exercise aid) because strands of duct tape was identified at the crime scene. Tying a person up via the upper arms was done on another murder I saw on Mystery Detectives--the older guy who went into the desert with a young Wiccan woman and didn't live another day. This method of tieup is also used in SM because it leaves the hands free while impeding aggressive movement.

*The angle of the photos is deliberate because it is bad photography. Both shots do not show his left arm, which could be tied to a foot of the bed.

*JA referred to a rope loop as a "noose"--a very odd choice of words.

*TA appears to be giving a hand gesture in one photo but a WS poster pointed out that he is tossing the KY tube that JA planted, almost in a defiant gesture. The KY tube and his hand are both blurred.

*TA is not the least aroused. It may be a post coital photo since his genital area is reddened, or he could have been sexually assaulted.

*TA's foot shows two rope burns. Either he was tied up in the bedroom or he was dragged by the foot.

I've saved the best evidence for last. The crime scene experts indicated the blood in the bedroom varied in age. There was "old" blood and fresher blood.

In my mind, I think she used the unusual tie-up to sit on him and inflict minor stab wounds because by then, he had refused to be blackmailed (by the photos) and by her threats to tell the bishop he was a pedophile. The evidence of blunt force trauma on his lower limbs has never been explained. I believe she inflicted wounds to him in the bedroom before the shower.

Another theory that explains Travis' weakened condition is that she may have stabbed him in the heart first and he may not have realized the severity of the injury. Many people do not realize they are dying because they feel ok at first. They think they survived because they don't see too much blood. Medical testimony indicates that it would have taken three or four minutes to weaken.

Evidence towards this scenario would be the unnatural position of his hands on his chest on one of the shower photos, the strange poses, the appearance of desperation/pain and general sadness. His basic defiance towards her intimidation might make him not want to show her his pain. WHen he saw the gun, he knew he had to act.

I am sure I have left some things out, but these are some of the ideas that have been floated here.

excellent post. I have always thought thosr pics were under duress

 

[lisalei321]

That would put me very near the front....

I'm pretty sure it puts you right up front :rocker:

 

[Pink Panther]

That's really funny.

Not so funny. It's most likely what will happen.

moo

 

[Hez]

No accident, the F-word flows right out of her easily, even in how she writes.
She was not spiritual and no delicate flower... She was a road trip driving "been around the block" type that wants people to think she is so feminine.

she is weird, unstable, gives the finger, tells her friends they F'd up..

I don't buy any of her quiet posturing. Fake.

She is a crazed killer, very dangerous, no conscience. Especially when she can plan a murder, stage a burglary, descend on a man from 1200 miles away and slaughter him.

She tries to portray a demure innocent abuse victim. She's more like the character of Lucy from the show Raising Hope, but far less attractive.

http://raising-hope.wikia.com/wiki/Lucy_Carlyle

 

[StephanieHartPI]

Question? If this has already been posted, I missed it. But do we know if Travis A's parents are still alive?

His parents passed away. And so has his grandmother now

 

[otto]

Why not? The more weapons, the better.

Maybe she was concerned that the gun would alert his roommates or the neighbors. Or, one weapon was a backup. Or, she hadn't thought every detail through and didn't quite know how she would get him into a vulnerable position. And so she didn't know which weapon would be best for a quick, relatively clean, and quiet murder. Or maybe she didn't bring the knife but sneaked one of his kitchen knives upstairs when she decided not to use the gun. Really, it could be anything.

Obviously, the murder wasn't thought through because she wasn't prepared for the mess it would cause. She tried to clean it up, but never imagined the blood would wind up all the way down the hall and onto the carpet.

She may have thought that she could contain it to the bathroom and easily clean up the mess ... she didn't anticipate that Travis would struggle to get out of the house by crawling down the hallway to the stairs

 

[RadarLuv]

I posted her when Juan stood up.Someone else actually recognized her, which made me proud. Here is Zenyatta (Shelby1). If you don't know her story, read it. All I could think of was Juan and the racehorse tonight. Killing it!

 

[Clue Finder 55]

But how did talk him into posing nude in the shower? :whoosh:

Responding to what you were responding to...

All "Jodi shot first" theorizing seems to be based on the gun jamming. Which is, of course, begging the question (circular reasoning, or assuming what one is trying to prove) of the form:

Q. If Jodi shot first, why didn't she shoot him again?

A. The gun jammed

Q. What makes you think the gun jammed?

A. Because she didn't shoot him again

Oh, okay. Problem is, when semi-auto guns "jam" what that usually means is a misfeed, not a "jam", which is usually cleared by pulling the slide back. So the tell-tale sign of a "jam" is a unfired round dropped to the floor.

Without the gun, we have no way of knowing.

I will say this though. It seems likely the .25 stolen from Grandpa was of the Colt template and they tend to be incredibly reliable firearms. In absence of knowing if the ammunition was improper, underpowered or corroded, assuming "the gun jammed" is not a reasonable assumption.

The theory that the gun jammed is not necessarily a miss fired shell.
With a gun as small as a 25 cal semi auto people have a tendency to hold the gun in their hand where as a shot is fired the slide rubs against the hand and that causes the slide to loose momentum as it slides all the way back, as the slide is going forward it is going to slow to properly pick up the next round and causes the gun to jam.
A handgun that has not been cleaned for a long time can also cause a jam.


Shells with a low grain of powder can also cause the gun to jam for more or less the same reason.

If Jodi was not experianced with these little guns like she says she may not have known how to clear a jammed shell or one shot was all she needed if she shot last.

 

[InTheGarden]

For all we know she could have pretended to be suicidal and had the gun pointed at her head or knife to her wrist. Travis may have stepped towards her to try and get the weapon(s) away and that's when she attacked. Just another one of my surprise! scenarios. But this one doesn't explain the camera and makes less sense to me.

JA could have set the camera on the floor after taking the last photo (TA sitting in shower), then revealed the gun and knife hidden in her pockets or in the cabinet under the sink, threatening suicide. JA may have said this to him several times during their "relationship." The last photo taken while TA was sitting down seems to indicate his head was down just from the way his shoulders and arms look. The stab wounds to his head could have some first. Then while he was protecting his head and face, and trying to get up from a sitting position, JA could have thrust the knife into his chest. The struggle would explain the weird photos where the camera was being kicked around.

 

[leebee52]

His parents passed away. And so has his grandmother now

he's grandmother died before this trial I think