GUILTY MA - Abigail Hanna for kidnap, assault of 2yo girl, Hamilton, 2015

[Kip]

I think if it were PPP she might have understood her actions were bad or wrong but she had no power over the compulsions. So she had to lie or be deceptive. Or maybe she only realized afterward what she'd done.

BBM. She didn't have to lie or be deceptive. Once she realized what she had done, she could have taken the child either back to the child's parents, or to her own parents and asked for help.

When I read that Abi had been fired, I had assumed that she had babysat for the family for at least a week or two. How does a babysitter get fired after one day? Wouldn't you just not call them back. I assume Abi must have been hired to work on an ongoing basis. I'm very curious as to what Abi did on that first day with the kids that got her fired. I'm also curious about what Abi might have told her friends about it and if she expressed any animosity towards the family or children.

 

[Blondie in Spokane]

EXCLUSIVE: Drink, drugs, stealing and lying to police - how babysitter who 'kidnapped, beat and burned' toddler went off rails despite Christian schooling and wealthy parents

Abigail Hanna is accused of breaking into Lyndon Albers' parents' home and abducting the toddler who was found naked and cigarette burned

Hannah, 21, appeared in court earlier this week and remains in custody; her new engagement to Nathan Wolters is 'over' says family member

Daily Mail Online can reveal she has history of problems with the police and 'mental health issues'

Daughter of affluent parents went to Christian school and college but family friend says: 'She's very troubled.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hy-parents-private-education.html#ixzz3sdWGQU

 

[bluesneakers]

EXCLUSIVE: Drink, drugs, stealing and lying to police - how babysitter who 'kidnapped, beat and burned' toddler went off rails despite Christian schooling and wealthy parents

Abigail Hanna is accused of breaking into Lyndon Albers' parents' home and abducting the toddler who was found naked and cigarette burned

Hannah, 21, appeared in court earlier this week and remains in custody; her new engagement to Nathan Wolters is 'over' says family member

Daily Mail Online can reveal she has history of problems with the police and 'mental health issues'

Daughter of affluent parents went to Christian school and college but family friend says: 'She's very troubled.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hy-parents-private-education.html#ixzz3sdWGQU

Wow. Not good. (This happened a year ago.)

In the narrative filed in Newburyport District Court the reporting officer noted: 'I observed a bottle of Captain Morgan rum and a bottle of Smirnoff Vodka on the back floor behind the driver's seat.
'The passenger compartment of the vehicle also had a strong odor of fresh burnt marijuana.'
He observed that, 'Hanna's eyes appeared to be reddened and glassy and I asked her to step from the vehicle to observe any signs of impairment.'
When asked by the officer where the marijuana was, Hanna twice lied and claimed there was none in the car.
In fact the officer found, 'an orange bag containing a grinder, pipe, and three baggies with a small amount of marijuana.'
The officer continued: 'I then spoke with Hanna and detected a faint odor of an alcoholic beverage on her breath and she did admit to drinking a small amount of alcohol in the afternoon.'

 

[Rayemonde]

Typical Daily Mail sensationalism... Not really much new information there. So she does smoke pot, as we'd guessed. A DUI. Lied to police and avoided responsibility for what she'd done. Engagement is apparently off according to his relatives, although I thought I'd read that he was in court the other day, presumably to support her.

In other news Tiffany Vanalstyne has pleaded guilty to murdering the 5 year old cousin she was babysitting when she was 19. She tried to cover her tracks by hiding him outside and leaving him for dead, and then saying he'd been abducted. She had a pre-existing bipolar disorder diagnosis and claimed to have blacked out when she strangled little Kenneth, so I thought she might try an insanity plea.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-cousin-reporting-fake-abduction-911.html

 

[Coquette]

A 20 year old drinking and smoking pot is not surprising. Try any college campus and most high schools in America. Abi just happened to get caught and was underage. Making her out to be some law breaking jailhouse junkie is over the top sensationalism. She's clearly a deeply troubled girl with a history of reckless behavior. And it does seem like the engagement was likely tied in to the pregnancy. She was with another guy altogether a year ago if the DM article is correct. I just don't know what to make of her. She's clearly mentally ill., that's quite obvious. But Is there another layer of cleverness and psychopathic tendencies at play? I guess that's possible. I really look forward to future assessments by psychologists coming out to give more insight into all of this. It's disturbing and yet oddly fascinating at the same time.

MOO.

 

[Tealgrove]

A person in a true psychotic state does not have the ability to be deceptive. AH understood that she had done something wrong, so she knew right from wrong. This was evident in her reported attempts to deceive the police. AH is obviously not mentally well and a further work up of her psychiatric state is warranted. This info is coming from my DH MD, as I understood it. He is a GP.

Fortunately, a toddler's memory remodels up to age 5 as the brain continues to grow. Lyndon most likely will not have memory of this and not be traumatized for life.

Just catching up here however, I have to disagree with your statement.

It is not true that someone in a psychotic state cannot be deceptive. That is blatantly not true.

Several years ago, in Toronto, a Doctor developed a psychotic form of post partum depression. She was convinced that evil spirits were trying to do harm to her and her newborn child. The Dr's parents were quite well known Psychiatric Doctors. They moved in to care for their daughter and granddaughter as she kept trying to leave the house with the child and they were very concerned. They were waiting for a bed in a special hospital for her. (Why she wasn't already there I don't know but she wasn't and her parents were basically there to guard her). She managed to slip out of the house, and plan her suicide and took the baby with her. She killed herself and her child. She was in a psychotic state, able to think through her plan and deceptively made her escape.

I also have up close experience with a family member who has had psychotic episodes who has been extremely deceptive in order to live out the fantasy in his brain and is quite able to drive and do all kinds of things.

 

[bluesneakers]

A 20 year old drinking and smoking pot is not surprising. Try any college campus and most high schools in America. Abi just happened to get caught and was underage. Making her out to be some law breaking jailhouse junkie is over the top sensationalism. She's clearly a deeply troubled girl with a history of reckless behavior. And it does seem like the engagement was likely tied in to the pregnancy. She was with another guy altogether a year ago if the DM article is correct. I just don't know what to make of her. She's clearly mentally ill., that's quite obvious. But Is there another layer of cleverness and psychopathic tendencies at play? I guess that's possible. I really look forward to future assessments by psychologists coming out to give more insight into all of this. It's disturbing and yet oddly fascinating at the same time.

MOO.

I don't think what she did was surprising, but I think based on her upbringing and education her parents are going to be less understanding than most parents.

JMO

 

[bluesneakers]

Just catching up here however, I have to disagree with your statement.

It is not true that someone in a psychotic state cannot be deceptive. That is blatantly not true.

Several years ago, in Toronto, a Doctor developed a psychotic form of post partum depression. She was convinced that evil spirits were trying to do harm to her and her newborn child. The Dr's parents were quite well known Psychiatric Doctors. They moved in to care for their daughter and granddaughter as she kept trying to leave the house with the child and they were very concerned. They were waiting for a bed in a special hospital for her. (Why she wasn't already there I don't know but she wasn't and her parents were basically there to guard her). She managed to slip out of the house, and plan her suicide and took the baby with her. She killed herself and her child. She was in a psychotic state, able to think through her plan and deceptively made her escape.

I also have up close experience with a family member who has had psychotic episodes who has been extremely deceptive in order to live out the fantasy in his brain and is quite able to drive and do all kinds of things.

I got curious about the Toronto doctor. Here are a few links if anyone else is interested:

Mother who killed son on subway dies of injuries

Self Psychiatrist Kills Son

Coroner probing subway suicide

 

[Zuri]

Just catching up here however, I have to disagree with your statement.

It is not true that someone in a psychotic state cannot be deceptive. That is blatantly not true.

Several years ago, in Toronto, a Doctor developed a psychotic form of post partum depression. She was convinced that evil spirits were trying to do harm to her and her newborn child. The Dr's parents were quite well known Psychiatric Doctors. They moved in to care for their daughter and granddaughter as she kept trying to leave the house with the child and they were very concerned. They were waiting for a bed in a special hospital for her. (Why she wasn't already there I don't know but she wasn't and her parents were basically there to guard her). She managed to slip out of the house, and plan her suicide and took the baby with her. She killed herself and her child. She was in a psychotic state, able to think through her plan and deceptively made her escape.

I also have up close experience with a family member who has had psychotic episodes who has been extremely deceptive in order to live out the fantasy in his brain and is quite able to drive and do all kinds of things.

https://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Related-Conditions/Psychosis

True psychosis is what is defined above. Individuals with psychotic symptoms that are delusional or hearing voices tend to believe what they are thinking/hearing. Those delusions/hAllucinations are not true but the person may believe them as fact. True psychosis occurs in 1 out of 100 people. Psychosis can be combined with other disorders, whereby your statement would be correct. DH MD was talking about TRUE psychosis. I don't think AH had TRUE psychosis.


What may be a point of confusion is how lay people define or experience someone with psychosis and a medical doctor defining it. Not going to debate that point as I am not an MD, nor do I have years of training or experience to back it up. I don't read medical journals on how to diagnose and treat mental illness or personality disorders or have I diagnosed anyone. Have I known people with them? Yes. But that does not mean I even know close to what an MD would know. IMO

 

[trixandhoney]

The reality is that we know very little information about AH, and everything we do know is debatable. The affidavit is based on the opinion and perception of the person who filled it out. The reports on her behavior from former friends/classmates/neighbors/the tenant in her parents' house are all based on individual perceptions. I think the media's portrayal of her as a pretty, blonde, spoiled white Christian from an affluent family plays a huge role in people's perception of her. Individual views on mental illness aren't going to change regardless of the facts that come out. Some people think legitimate mental illness should be considered when trying someone in court, and other people see a wrong as a wrong and don't care about a person's mental health issues.
IMO no one here (even a professional) has the ability to diagnose AH through the TV and a handful of news articles. And I suspect that even if 40 doctors say she's psychotic, people who don't see mental illness as a legitimate disability will continue to roll their eyes and call her a manipulative liar.

 

[MissUnderstood]

Zuri, I had thought the same thing about her not having memory of this, and I thank God for that part.

Unless she has scars from cigarette burns! They will not go away!


MOO!!

 

[Rayemonde]

There's been quite a lot of research done on the link between mental illness or psychosis and violence, if anyone's interested.

This one found that most acts of violence by people with mental illness were not caused by psychosis:

For the study, researchers conducted a meticulous review of 305 violent incidents by mental health patients in the United States, and discovered that only 12 percent of these were preceded by psychosis.

Numerous studies have shown that violence and murder are more likely to be sparked by anger, access to firearms, and substance abuse. The new study is the first to analyze the regularity of psychosis-induced violence among the mentally ill...

“But it’s important to remember that risk factors for violence, such as substance abuse, childhood maltreatment, neighborhood disadvantage, are mostly shared by people with and without mental illness, and that’s what we should be focused on if maximizing public safety is our goal.”

http://psychcentral.com/news/2015/05/13/psychosis-seldom-leads-to-violence/84572.html

And I found a study based in London, England, which I thought could be relevant. It found that most acts of violence caused by psychosis occur when the patient has delusions (not hallucinations) and becomes angry. So delusions by themselves aren't linked with violence, but a person who has delusions and becomes angry about it may become violent (well, I guess that anyone who becomes angry may become violent, though!)

So if you have a delusion that someone is out to get you and you become angry, you may lash out. I just thought that this was relevant to Abi's case because someone who has delusions can appear very normal unless the topic of their delusion comes up, and they can certainly be capable of planning, stealth and lying.

Personally I don't buy that Abi had a delusion that the baby was hers, because the cruelty towards the baby doesn't fit with that. But maybe she had a delusion that the baby's family was out to get her and wanted to punish them, or maybe she had a delusion that the baby was evil or something like that.

The researchers, led by Dr. Jeremy Coid, a professor of psychiatry at Queen Mary University in London, interviewed participants about the content of their delusions and their emotional experiences. Anger related to delusions was strongly linked with attempting to harm others. After adjusting for other factors, 31% of the minor violence could be attributed to anger connected with delusions. In the seriously violent patients, anger accounted for 56% of the incidents. Elation, anxiety and fear were not associated with violence.

Those who engaged in violence also tended to be younger and were more than twice as likely to have taken drugs in the past year, although alcohol use did not matter. The seriously violent were far more likely to be male, but there was no difference in risk by gender for minor violence.

None of the delusions were dangerous in and of themselves. But three types, all of which involved a sense of personal threat, were linked to serious violence if they provoked anger. One delusion centered on the idea that the person was being spied on or was under surveillance by some type of threatening authority, group or person. Another focused on the misguided belief that people with hostile intent were targeting the victim. Finally, there was the fantasy of some sort of conspiracy against the delusional person.

http://healthland.time.com/2013/03/18/what-really-causes-violence-in-psychosis/

The researchers also found that if a patient becomes depressed rather than angry about the content of their delusions, that has a protective effect against violence.

 

[ILOKAL]

Does anyone know the location of the cigarette burn/s on Lyndon? I believe the affidavit states that clothing with cigarette burns was also found, but I may be remembering that incorrectly.

 

[Mollyandme]

Just wanted to thank everyone who has shared a personal experience of themselves, a friend or loved one, suffering from a mental illness. Thank you for speaking up, and sharing your experience.

I also really appreciate all the links and articles posted about mental illness. I know that obviously we cannot diagnose Abi, and we are all going to have different opinions on whether she's malingering or not, but I think the links provided recently are informative and good information to be aware of.

i would like to learn more about personality disorders because I think that's a strong possibility here either on its own, or comorbid with other another diagnosis, so I'm going to do some research on that.

 

[Mollyandme]

So while we are waiting until the next hearing, I figured I would do a little research for those interested in some of the issues we have been discussing regarding Abi. Again, not trying to diagnose her, just wanted to learn more about malingering bc my initial reaction was that she was not malingering with the court appointed psych, but after reading the search warrant and thinking about it, I am now not as sure and can see both sides. I figured I mine as well learn more about malingering (I'm a huge nerd, I am always researching things that interest me or are on my mind at the time). I'm not good at cutting and pasting on this iPad so I will leave the link at the bottom and give a summary, but I highly suggest reading it if you are interested.

I found this article from Primary Psychology, titled "Detection and Management of Malingering in a Clinical Setting." It was published in 2006, but it's still interesting. I read the whole article, written by several psychiatrists, but if you are interested and want to save time, skip over the two scenarios in the beginning, because the two examples given are of drug seeking behavior and trying to get out of deportation... The rest of the article goes into more detail about malingering and secondary gain, when it's most common, faking auditory and visual hallucinations to attempt to avoid something by being hospitalized for these alleged hallucinations, etc. it stresses that malingering is a diagnosis of exclusion so the person must be taken seriously and observed while collateral info, testing, and observations are done in the hospital. There are also some nice little charts that are easy to understand and helpful if you want to just look at those instead.

They also talk about how the most common comorbid disorders found with malingering are personality disorders (specifically antisocial and borderline), substance abuse (drug seeking behavior in hospitals was what they mainly discussed with this), and schizophrenia (article discussed that it is common for schizophrenics to fake suicidal ideation to gain hospital admittance).

When it comes to malingering when one has a personality disorder, the article states that "clinicians should be on the lookout for hostility, manipulation, criminality, and substance abuse" which is information a forensic psychologist would get from a psychosocial evaluation, previous medical records, etc.

Anyway, sorry for the long post, the link is below and I found it informative. After reading the article I am more confident that the forensic psych who testified will be able to figure out to what extent Abi's self reported auditory hallucinations and failure to remember the crime, which the article actually describes as a self reported "mental fog during the commitment of a crime" are accurate. If they are accurate I hope she receives the help she needs so she can participate in her defense and let a jury decide. again, the article was written ten years ago so hopefully there have been further advancements in this research in the past 10 years that are available now.

http://primarypsychiatry.com/detection-and-management-of-malingering-in-a-clinical-setting/

 

[HMSHood]

I was thinking she may have a personality disorder rather than a mental illness. Borderline Personality Disorder or psychopathy perhaps. I feel like taking the child was to punish her parents, rather than any actual wish to possess the child. The child was just used as a means to an end, with no thought to her wellbeing or feelings at all. That's why I wondered if Abi might be a psychopath.

And it's not like Abi was at the house arguing with the parents and flew into a rage, grabbed the baby impulsively and ran off with her. This was planned out in advance. Abi sneaked into the house without waking anyone, and dumped the baby 8 miles away, hoping that no one would suspect her.

I am thinking that too, Borderline Personality Disorder. I get the impression that Abigail Hanna has a strong sense of entitlement. Maybe she wanted to be a nanny and she got fired. That made her really angry.

EXCLUSIVE: Drink, drugs, stealing and lying to police - how babysitter who 'kidnapped, beat and burned' toddler went off rails despite Christian schooling and wealthy parents
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...espite-wealthy-parents-private-education.html

The former babysitter charged with abducting toddler Lyndon Albers faced criminal charges last year and has a troubled history of stealing and lying to police.

Abigail Hanna was arrested on Friday and charged on multiple counts in connection with the abduction of Lyndon, 2.

The toddler disappeared from her home during the early hours of Friday and was found naked by the side of the road some eight miles from her home later that morning.

People with Borderline Personality Disorder tend to have distorted image about themselves and others. I read people who knew her said she had a history of depression and body image issues. Those occur in Borderline Personality Disorder. She probably fears rejection and abandonment and being fired from that nanny job was a form of rejection and abandonment. BPD can look like mental illness sometimes. Jodi Arias and Lori Drew are consumed by fear of rejection and abandonment. It drove them to do the crime.

The crime is most likely a revenge motivated.

 

[Zuri]

Thanks MollyandMe, HMSHOOD and Rayemonde for your insights and links. Very helpful. I really hope Abi gets the help she desperately seems to need.

 

[Mollyandme]

I am thinking that too, Borderline Personality Disorder. I get the impression that Abigail Hanna has a strong sense of entitlement. Maybe she wanted to be a nanny and she got fired. That made her really angry.

People with Borderline Personality Disorder tend to have distorted image about themselves and others. I read people who knew her said she had a history of depression and body image issues. Those occur in Borderline Personality Disorder. She probably fears rejection and abandonment and being fired from that nanny job was a form of rejection and abandonment. BPD can look like mental illness sometimes. Jodi Arias and Lori Drew are consumed by fear of rejection and abandonment. It drove them to do the crime.

The crime is most likely a revenge motivated.

I'm inclined to agree that I think borderline personality disorder is a real possibility. I know some will not like this speculation about her mental health but her mental health is relevant to the crime according to statements her attorney made in court and the court appointed psych agreed that further evaluation is needed before the hearing December 11th, so if someone forced me to form an opinion solely on what we have been told and my own research, I would say that I think she suffers from borderline personality disorder, maybe co occurring with depression and/or anxiety. It was also reported that she had issues with body image which is very common with borderline personality disorder as is suicidial ideation and attempts, which has also been reported in regards to Abi. This personality disorder is difficult to diagnose in many cases and it's unfortunate because there are many people with this disorder that don't know they have it. There are also many others who are aware and take steps to help control it and find an appropriate therapeutic approach.

According to the NIMH, people with severe borderline personality disorder can experience psychotic episodes as well. Their website has a list of symptoms of which an individual must have an "enduring pattern of behavior" of five of the symptoms to be diagnosed. Here is the list, and a link to the source from the NIMH:

*Extreme Reactions-including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions-to abandonment, whether real or perceived

*A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love to extreme dislike and anger

*Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future (such as school or career choices)

*Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating

*Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats, or self-harming behavior, such as cutting

*Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days

*Chronic feelings of emptiness and/or boredom

*Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger

*Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality.

Source: National Institute of Mental Health http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

Take that for what it's worth, but at a quick glance there are definitely at least five things on this list that fit with what's been reported in msm, and could shed light on The horrific crime she committed (not that it's an excuse at all). There's more info at the link above.

 

[HaikuMommy]

...And I suspect that even if 40 doctors say she's psychotic, people who don't see mental illness as a legitimate disability will continue to roll their eyes and call her a manipulative liar.

Not just people who think mental illness is not a legitimate disability but also (and especially) the millions of people still aghast that Casey Anthony somehow got away with murder. Attractive white girl with well-off parents, lots of similar behaviors. Especially the history of lying and changing stories, erratic behavior. I can recognize it in myself -- this fear that another entitled, enabled, lying, manipulative, sociopathic woman might get away with sadistically hurting a child because they get the benefit of the doubt due to their looks and station in life. I know I should wait to see if the professionals and prior records really point to mental illness... But the Casey Anthony case IS casting a shadow here.

 

[Confusion]

I doubt if we'll ever know for sure what was going on in her mind, but I'll throw in my two cents too. I could go along with the idea of BPD, but I wonder if her actions were set off before she was fired. If she had really wanted the baby she lost, it may have started with her resenting them having their baby when she was without hers. She may have then decided they were bad parents because they had her care for their baby instead of doing it themselves. Being fired may have just been the last straw.

MOO