GUILTY MA - Abigail Hanna for kidnap, assault of 2yo girl, Hamilton, 2015

[ILOKAL]

Not just people who think mental illness is not a legitimate disability but also (and especially) the millions of people still aghast that Casey Anthony somehow got away with murder. Attractive white girl with well-off parents, lots of similar behaviors. Especially the history of lying and changing stories, erratic behavior. I can recognize it in myself -- this fear that another entitled, enabled, lying, manipulative, sociopathic woman might get away with sadistically hurting a child because they get the benefit of the doubt due to their looks and station in life. I know I should wait to see if the professionals and prior records really point to mental illness... But the Casey Anthony case IS casting a shadow here.

And a Christian.

 

[ILOKAL]

I'm inclined to agree that I think borderline personality disorder is a real possibility. I know some will not like this speculation about her mental health but her mental health is relevant to the crime according to statements her attorney made in court and the court appointed psych agreed that further evaluation is needed before the hearing December 11th, so if someone forced me to form an opinion solely on what we have been told and my own research, I would say that I think she suffers from borderline personality disorder, maybe co occurring with depression and/or anxiety. It was also reported that she had issues with body image which is very common with borderline personality disorder as is suicidial ideation and attempts, which has also been reported in regards to Abi. This personality disorder is difficult to diagnose in many cases and it's unfortunate because there are many people with this disorder that don't know they have it. There are also many others who are aware and take steps to help control it and find an appropriate therapeutic approach.

According to the NIMH, people with severe borderline personality disorder can experience psychotic episodes as well. Their website has a list of symptoms of which an individual must have an "enduring pattern of behavior" of five of the symptoms to be diagnosed. Here is the list, and a link to the source from the NIMH:

*Extreme Reactions-including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions-to abandonment, whether real or perceived

*A pattern of intense and stormy relationships with family, friends, and loved ones, often veering from extreme closeness and love to extreme dislike and anger

*Distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future (such as school or career choices)

*Impulsive and often dangerous behaviors, such as spending sprees, unsafe sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, and binge eating

*Recurring suicidal behaviors or threats, or self-harming behavior, such as cutting

*Intense and highly changeable moods, with each episode lasting from a few hours to a few days

*Chronic feelings of emptiness and/or boredom

*Inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger

*Having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality.

Source: National Institute of Mental Health http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

Take that for what it's worth, but at a quick glance there are definitely at least five things on this list that fit with what's been reported in msm, and could shed light on The horrific crime she committed (not that it's an excuse at all). There's more info at the link above.

Of course, many of those exact symptoms are indicative of mental illness as well. It's just not cut and dry! IMO.

 

[Mollyandme]

Of course, many of those exact symptoms are indicative of mental illness as well. It's just not cut and dry! IMO.

Exactly, which is why it's so hard to diagnose borderline personality disorder, especially when there's such a continuum when it comes to mental illnesses. I was just trying to give a solid source with the list of criteria for diagnosis from the dsm, as several of us were discussing it as a possibility.

 

[ILOKAL]

Exactly, which is why it's so hard to diagnose borderline personality disorder, especially when there's such a continuum when it comes to mental illnesses. I was just trying to give a solid source with the list of criteria for diagnosis from the dsm, as several of us were discussing it as a possibility.

I would be interested in learning which five things you believe fit with what's been reported?

 

[krig101]

If Abi did indeed have a miscarriage one month ago it seems fairly clear it added to/ triggered this event. If she was pregnant I'd be curious to know how far along she was. One wonders if the engagement was tied to the pregnancy.

That makes me wonder if her fiancé knew about the miscarriage if she was indeed pregnant. Could that have added to whatever was going in her head?





Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

 

[Coquette]

I had an immediate family member with BPD. I spent years trying to understand it. I do not believe that Abi has BPD. Her behavior is far too extreme, IMO. We can all do a wee bit of Googling and feel like we're suddenly experts on all things mental health. The truth is, each individual person is unique and it takes tremendous skill, knowledge and hands on experience to be able to accurately assess and diagnose an individual. I suspect Abi is very seriously mentally ill. I leave it to the professionals to figure things out. MOO.

 

[trixandhoney]

Not just people who think mental illness is not a legitimate disability but also (and especially) the millions of people still aghast that Casey Anthony somehow got away with murder. Attractive white girl with well-off parents, lots of similar behaviors. Especially the history of lying and changing stories, erratic behavior. I can recognize it in myself -- this fear that another entitled, enabled, lying, manipulative, sociopathic woman might get away with sadistically hurting a child because they get the benefit of the doubt due to their looks and station in life. I know I should wait to see if the professionals and prior records really point to mental illness... But the Casey Anthony case IS casting a shadow here.

The defense for Casey Anthony never said she had mental illness or a personality disorder, to include BPD or APD. They alleged she was traumatized from being sexually abused by her father, but they never claimed she had any sort of mental illness, delusions, or personality disorders. The public and media widely assumed she did (and I understand why). However, the reports of the two psychologists who interviewed her extensively were unsealed. Neither gave any evidence of mental illness.

https://statevcasey.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/summarizing-the-psychologists/

"I looked at every single diagnostic personality disorder to see whether or not some of her behavior might fit. [She] doesn’t meet the criteria for any of the existing categories.

He explained why he ruled out an antisocial personality disorder (aka being a psychopath):

There are lots of behaviors that are required in an antisocial personality and there has to be a number of them to in order to even meet the first criteria… In order to diagnose antisocial personality, there must be a history of evidence and diagnosis of a conduct of disorder before the age of 16.

Not only does it not exist, [but] Miss Anthony’s behavior is completely opposite to that.

Miss Anthony shows no history of any juvenile problems. There is no indication of problems with peers or teachers or authority figures in school. There is no evidence of any acting out, misbehaving, disturbance, whatsoever. In fact, she wins awards for… helpfulness. She’s liked by her school teacher, principals, and peers. She wins the Citizenship award. She wins the Junior Achievement award. She’s on the sports teams in soccer, volleyball, and in track and gets accolades, and I’ve read them. Basically, there is no history of violence, aggression, any commitment of any behavior that would be antithetical to rules and regulations of schools, of churches, of the legal system. Her behavior is conformity…

I acknowledge that she has told lies. She has told distortions. She has misrepresented things. And, unfortunately, that’s not the [only] criteria for antisocial personality.

There is nothing… in any of the psychometric subscales that I looked at, that indicates any evidence of psychopathy."

 

[jbelle]

I can't help but wonder, that if the perp of this awful crime was a male, that there would be as much understanding? Not suggesting that mental illness is not a concern, but I have not seen empathy or sympathy directed at another perp like I have toward Abi. What is the difference between mentally incompetent and evil? How can someone be capable enough to try cover their tracks but not capable at the time of the crime? Not trying to say Abi is not incapacitated in some way, but where do we draw the line?? We don't show any sadness for serial killers, who most, for sure are mentally ill in some way! What is the difference in cases like this do you think?






MOO!!

This is a good question. I am no expert so I can only answer for myself as someone who leans towards the mental illness argument.

I have read cases of men snatching a stranger child from it's home and I can't remember a single one that was not sexually motivated. When that sort of assault occurs I
tend to not care if they are ill or not I just want them locked away forever because I do not feel that urges like that can be cured. In cases with no sexual motivation, such as
the greyhound bus beheading, I absolutely do feel the man who committed the crime was mentally ill and felt that was the case from the beginning as I do with this one.

I don't know why this lady took little Lyndon, doesn't seem it was to sexually assault her as her name is still reported, doesn't seem she knew the family other than sitting for them a time or two, no rumors or hints of an affair/unrequited love with the father, so why? Non sexual sadist? I doubt it, especially if what we have heard about severe mental health issues in that past turns out to be true.


I could be totally wrong and she isn't ill, it's just where I am leaning right now.

 

[HaikuMommy]

The defense for Casey Anthony never said she had mental illness or a personality disorder, to include BPD or APD. They alleged she was traumatized from being sexually abused by her father, but they never claimed she had any sort of mental illness, delusions, or personality disorders. The public and media widely assumed she did (and I understand why). However, the reports of the two psychologists who interviewed her extensively were unsealed. Neither gave any evidence of mental illness.

https://statevcasey.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/summarizing-the-psychologists/

"I looked at every single diagnostic personality disorder to see whether or not some of her behavior might fit. [She] doesn’t meet the criteria for any of the existing categories.

He explained why he ruled out an antisocial personality disorder (aka being a psychopath):

There are lots of behaviors that are required in an antisocial personality and there has to be a number of them to in order to even meet the first criteria… In order to diagnose antisocial personality, there must be a history of evidence and diagnosis of a conduct of disorder before the age of 16.

Not only does it not exist, [but] Miss Anthony’s behavior is completely opposite to that.

Miss Anthony shows no history of any juvenile problems. There is no indication of problems with peers or teachers or authority figures in school. There is no evidence of any acting out, misbehaving, disturbance, whatsoever. In fact, she wins awards for… helpfulness. She’s liked by her school teacher, principals, and peers. She wins the Citizenship award. She wins the Junior Achievement award. She’s on the sports teams in soccer, volleyball, and in track and gets accolades, and I’ve read them. Basically, there is no history of violence, aggression, any commitment of any behavior that would be a ntithetical to rules and regulations of schools, of churches, of the legal system. Her behavior is conformity…

I acknowledge that she has told lies. She has told distortions. She has misrepresented things. And, unfortunately, that’s not the [only] criteria for antisocial personality.

There is nothing… in any of the psychometric subscales that I looked at, that indicates any evidence of psychopathy."

True. I wasn't saying Casey got off on a mental illness defense -- I'm saying women like these two often get the benefit of the doubt in one way or another and don't get convicted as often. I think being pretty, young, white, well-off (and yes, Christian) is kind of like being rich or famous. Pretty is probably the biggest factor. People just tend to find reasonable doubt or some loophole more often. JMO

 

[ILOKAL]

True. I wasn't saying Casey got off on a mental illness defense -- I'm saying women like these two often get the benefit of the doubt in one way or another and don't get convicted as often. I think being pretty, young, white, well-off (and yes, Christian) is kind of like being rich or famous. Pretty is probably the biggest factor. People just tend to find reasonable doubt or some loophole more often. JMO

And, on the other hand, because of the human nature of jealousy, many are more willing to throw such "pretty" and otherwise fortunate people under the bus, which often says more about those doing the judging than it does about those being judged, IMO.

 

[Rayemonde]

In psychology it's known as the Halo Effect.

Good looks could help guilty defendants dodge justice, researchers have said.
They reported that in an experiment jurors were more likely to convict suspects deemed ugly than those seen as attractive.

On the other hand:

Women jurors treat female suspects more harshly, especially when they think they might have used their looks to their advantage.

Men, on the other hand, tend to give attractive women the benefit of the doubt.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-443754/Ugly-defendants-likely-guilty-attractive-ones.html

 

[Mollyandme]

I had an immediate family member with BPD. I spent years trying to understand it. I do not believe that Abi has BPD. Her behavior is far too extreme, IMO. We can all do a wee bit of Googling and feel like we're suddenly experts on all things mental health. The truth is, each individual person is unique and it takes tremendous skill, knowledge and hands on experience to be able to accurately assess and diagnose an individual. I suspect Abi is very seriously mentally ill. I leave it to the professionals to figure things out. MOO.

I don't think any of us posting links or googling think we are experts, we are just trying to back up why we might think a certain thing. There's a continuum for BPD so I'm not going to discount that Abi could have been on the far end of the spectrum which can also involve psychosis and other co occurring illnesses according to the NIMH and the link I posted, so I am not going to rule it out. As you said, each individual is different.

 

[Mollyandme]

I would be interested in learning which five things you believe fit with what's been reported?

I would be happy to do so but first Let me add another disclaimer that this is just my opinion based on what we have been privy to from the media, and the affidavit, I am not an expert and I agree fully that these symptoms could come from other mental Illnesses as well. I will list the symptoms that I think would fit with what we know and explain why in terms of the criteria in the DSM used to diagnose Borderline Personality Disorder, which I found on the NIMH website here: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/borderline-personality-disorder/index.shtml

*distorted and unstable self-image or sense of self, which can result in sudden changes in feelings, opinions, values, or plans and goals for the future, such as school or career choices. (This could fit with reports of a history of body image issues, also her issues with college which were reported when she left after a semester, which is common for many kids who decide it's not for them but that fact is still relevant here in terms of it fitting under this)

*recurring suicidal behaviors or threats of self-harming (reported that there have been hospitalizations in the past for suicidal behaviors, plus her attorney and the court appointed psych said in court that they could not rule out that she would attempt to harm herself and needed further evaluation)

*inappropriate, intense anger or problems controlling anger (relates to the crime she committed, especially shaving Lyndon's head and the cigarette burns)

*extreme reactions-including panic, depression, rage, or frantic actions-to abandonment, whether real or perceived (in my opinion she felt rage and abandonment after being fired from her babysitting job and her reaction was one of rage towards Lyndon)

*impulsive and often dangerous behaviors such as substance abuse and reckless driving (report in msm of driving with ex boyfriend with alcohol and marijuana in car, eyes reportedly blood shot, there are also a lot of behaviors that are considered impulsive and dangerous but we don't have any other examples of that right now)

*having stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms, such as feeling cut off from oneself, observing oneself from outside the body, or losing touch with reality (based on Abi's claim that she was not aware of what was going on when she spoke with court appointed psych and said she heard a voice telling her not to speak to psych)

That's just my opinion of what I was thinking when I thought maybe she has borderline personality disorder. It's just one possibility out of many. Thankfully she is being properly evaluated by those who can properly diagnose her.

 

[longlonglake]

And a Christian.

What does her being a Christian have to do with it?

 

[bluesneakers]

What does her being a Christian have to do with it?

Probably works with the other factors (pretty, white, young) that lead to a defendant being judged less harshly.

 

[ILOKAL]

What does her being a Christian have to do with it?

I have no idea what being a Christian has to do with ANYTHING, however, according to Post #350, the media described Abi as a pretty, white, young Christian . . . .

 

[ILOKAL]

I think if Abi has BPD or APD there would have been some outburst during her interaction with LE, the attorney, or the court psychologist and I don't think that was demonstrated at all.

 

[HMSHood]

The defense for Casey Anthony never said she had mental illness or a personality disorder, to include BPD or APD. They alleged she was traumatized from being sexually abused by her father, but they never claimed she had any sort of mental illness, delusions, or personality disorders. The public and media widely assumed she did (and I understand why). However, the reports of the two psychologists who interviewed her extensively were unsealed. Neither gave any evidence of mental illness.

https://statevcasey.wordpress.com/2012/01/18/summarizing-the-psychologists/

"I looked at every single diagnostic personality disorder to see whether or not some of her behavior might fit. [She] doesn’t meet the criteria for any of the existing categories.

He explained why he ruled out an antisocial personality disorder (aka being a psychopath):

There are lots of behaviors that are required in an antisocial personality and there has to be a number of them to in order to even meet the first criteria… In order to diagnose antisocial personality, there must be a history of evidence and diagnosis of a conduct of disorder before the age of 16.

Not only does it not exist, [but] Miss Anthony’s behavior is completely opposite to that.

Miss Anthony shows no history of any juvenile problems. There is no indication of problems with peers or teachers or authority figures in school. There is no evidence of any acting out, misbehaving, disturbance, whatsoever. In fact, she wins awards for… helpfulness. She’s liked by her school teacher, principals, and peers. She wins the Citizenship award. She wins the Junior Achievement award. She’s on the sports teams in soccer, volleyball, and in track and gets accolades, and I’ve read them. Basically, there is no history of violence, aggression, any commitment of any behavior that would be antithetical to rules and regulations of schools, of churches, of the legal system. Her behavior is conformity…

I acknowledge that she has told lies. She has told distortions. She has misrepresented things. And, unfortunately, that’s not the [only] criteria for antisocial personality.

There is nothing… in any of the psychometric subscales that I looked at, that indicates any evidence of psychopathy."

I never thought Casey Anthony had Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Regardless of personality disorders, mental illness, or psychopathy, I think Casey Anthony has a lot of deep seated and repressed anger issues. I get the impression she is very resentful by nature.

She had a negative relationship with her parents and brother. Something I see too often with people like her. I have to wonder what is Abigail Hanna's relationship is with her parents and siblings.

Anthony is more likely a people pleaser, like Susan Smith or Diane Downs. On the other hand, Jodi Arias is an injustice collector like Lori Drew or Elliot Rodger. I can see Abigail Hanna as a people pleaser.

 

[trixandhoney]

This article pretty much captures everything I believe to be true.

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8655140

"At the very least, there seems to be an insistence on fixating on the qualities that seem to make Hanna's crime--and, perhaps, her mental illness--so unbelievable, posting photo after photo of the young woman in happier times. As the Daily Beast writes, "it's unclear why Hanna, a newly engaged former camp counselor, would snatch and abuse her former client." Her Facebook photos, after all, show her "beaming with friends, picking apples, and stirring coffee."
As if mentally ill people don't pick apples.
Here's the thing about mental illness, the thing we too often forget when looking for answers to the why and the how: Mental illness acts without prejudice and motive. And, very often, it acts without fair warning. It can be maddening to try to figure out why a person suffering from mental illness acts as she does, and there can often be no answers. While there can be a trigger to a psychotic break, that's not always the case. While a mentally ill person committing a crime can have motive to do so, that's also not always the case. The fact is that there's so much, too much, we don't understand about mental illness.
Some reports note that Hanna suffered a miscarriage not long ago. Another headline introduces the idea that she was an avid pot smoker, as if that explains anything. She was, reports say, a frequent shoplifter.
Hanna was also, reportedly, recently engaged, and the question has been implied: How could someone "normal" enough to have a fiancé commit such a horrific crime? Didn't he--didn't anyone--see this coming? He may have; we haven't heard from him. But holding anyone else but Hanna accountable is to ignore the very quality that can make mental illness so tragic: its unpredictably. What's more, to wonder how Hanna could have had a fiancé is to imply that mentally ill people can't be loved. They can, and they are.
This isn't to say Hanna should not be held accountable for her actions. If she is ill, she deserves help, and, if she was aware she needed help, it's truly a tragedy that she didn't seek it earlier. But it's a disservice to those suffering from mental illness to continue looking at these cases as if they are explainable; as if there must be reason for every action. For many people who suffer from mental illness, there is no explanation or cause or sense."

 

[beach]

Admin Note

Removed a few posts.

Drop it now. Stop the personalization, baiting, and bickering.

Let it go and move on.