MA - Conrad Roy, 18, urged by friend, commits suicide, Fairhaven, 13 July 2014

[cocomod]

If he was hoping to be rescued again, then he was using suicidal threats as some sort of emotional blackmail.



He wasn't coerced though. More like "not discouraged" or even "encouraged".



So, is it the fault of the people who were trying to help him that he ended up committing suicide?

No, IMO she wasn't helping him. To help a depressed person is not to tell them to go through with a suicide. How incredible that someone would even think to call this help. No, not necessarily emotional blackmail. Someone in desperate need of help crying out for help! Like someone with undiagnosed or untreated diabetes that goes without food and has a seizure. If a friend Knew that person has diabetes and encouraged them to eat tons of sugar go without food allowing this person to go into diabetic shock. They would be partially responsible for that persons death.

Yes, I absolutely believe MOO that she is partly responsible for his death. She could have encouraged him to stay out of the vehicle. She could and should have encouraged him to get real help - professional help when he was threatening suicide. She should have told an adult.

Wouldn't we all be sitting here appalled if a teen had known about a planned attack on a school and encouraged the attacker to follow through. Even though the encourager didn't pull the trigger, they still assisted and conspired to murder innocent students. This teen in a very real way conspired to help her friend murder himself.

 

[Lulu14]

No, IMO she wasn't helping him. To help a depressed person is not to tell them to go through with a suicide. How incredible that someone would even think to call this help. No, not necessarily emotional blackmail. Someone in desperate need of help crying out for help! Like someone with undiagnosed or untreated diabetes that goes without food and has a seizure. If a friend Knew that person has diabetes and encouraged them to eat tons of sugar go without food allowing this person to go into diabetic shock. They would be partially responsible for that persons death.

Yes, I absolutely believe MOO that she is partly responsible for his death. She could have encouraged him to stay out of the vehicle. She could and should have encouraged him to get real help - professional help when he was threatening suicide. She should have told an adult.

Wouldn't we all be sitting here appalled if a teen had known about a planned attack on a school and encouraged the attacker to follow through. Even though the encourager didn't pull the trigger, they still assisted and conspired to murder innocent students. This teen in a very real way conspired to help her friend murder himself.

My point was another. There were people who were trying to stop him from committing suicide, and this girl that was encouraging him to. If we hold her responsible for the "success" of her endeavor, should we also hold the people who failed responsible as well? Should they be charged with "criminal negligent manslaughter"* for failing to stop his death?

*[ A homicide resulting from the taking of an unreasonable and high degree of risk is usually considered criminally negligent manslaughter. Jurisdictions are divided on the question of whether the defendant must be aware of the risk. Modern criminal codes generally require a consciousness of risk, although, under some codes, the absence of this element makes the offense a less serious homicide.]

 

[tlcya]

No, IMO she wasn't helping him. To help a depressed person is not to tell them to go through with a suicide. How incredible that someone would even think to call this help. No, not necessarily emotional blackmail. Someone in desperate need of help crying out for help! Like someone with undiagnosed or untreated diabetes that goes without food and has a seizure. If a friend Knew that person has diabetes and encouraged them to eat tons of sugar go without food allowing this person to go into diabetic shock. They would be partially responsible for that persons death.

Yes, I absolutely believe MOO that she is partly responsible for his death. She could have encouraged him to stay out of the vehicle. She could and should have encouraged him to get real help - professional help when he was threatening suicide. She should have told an adult.

Wouldn't we all be sitting here appalled if a teen had known about a planned attack on a school and encouraged the attacker to follow through. Even though the encourager didn't pull the trigger, they still assisted and conspired to murder innocent students. This teen in a very real way conspired to help her friend murder himself.

:goodpost: thank you. While I was hung up on semantics for a moment, this post articulates what I feel about this case.

Now as to those posts which support the stance that this young lady should not be held criminally responsible, While I agree that there seems to be a trend towards a lack of personal responsibility in general lately. And I can see the point as far as "where does it end, this holding others accountable for the ultimate actions of others" I also am really really tired of the tech relationships that seem to exist nowadays. And while I do not believe that people should invest as heavily (personal lessons recently learned about this) the fact remains that they currently do.

She put herself in a position of trust with this young man. She apparently purposefully isolated him from other support systems, other friends, ,family, etc. She catfished and played him IMO. She enjoyed the position of being the confidant, the closest person who he confided in. She played that card and apparently purposefully acted in a manner such as to encourage him to think she was his best and closest ally, the one person who understood him and in whom he could confide. And then, her piece de resistance, she encouraged him to finish the job when he expressed doubts, fears, and misgivings about killing himself. 10 years from now this young lady could be another FICA or JA. JMO.

She then went on to suck all sympathy and attention she could from the situation she appears to have ACTIVELY helped create. The death of a confused, depressed, desperate young man.

This is simply MOO and I get that others may differ. But to me, the distance provided by texting, social media, the web, there are very real, heartbreaking, life altering consequences to what people do and say behind those distancers. This scenario ended in a young promising man's death.

 

[HMSHood]

I highly doubt if she suffers from MBP.
But I would be looking at sociopathic tendencies, psychopathy, narcissism, or BPD.
I would think those should be investigated.

All moo.

Münchausen syndrome by proxy looks highly unlikely. It is a form of extreme narcissism in the case of Michelle Carter. However, she would make Conrad ill a lot, which is not the case I do not think at this time.

Borderline and Narcissistic Personality Disorders sound more likely.

Borderline Personality Disorder
Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment
A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation
Identity disturbance, such as a significant and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self
Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)
Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior
Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)
Chronic feelings of emptiness
Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)
Transient, stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/borderline-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Carter has a very distorted image of herself and other people. She is probably sensitive to rejection and abandonment.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
Believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
Requires excessive admiration
Has a very strong sense of entitlement, e.g., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
Is exploitative of others, e.g., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
Lacks empathy, e.g., is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
Regularly shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/narcissistic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Carter is highly narcissistic. It is always about her no matter what. She has a severely overinflated ego.

Histrionic Personality Disorder is a possibility.
Is uncomfortable in situations in which he or she is not the center of attention
Interaction with others is often characterized by inappropriate sexually seductive or provocative behavior
Displays rapidly shifting and shallow expression of emotions
Consistently uses physical appearance to draw attention to themself
Has a style of speech that is excessively impressionistic and lacking in detail
Shows self-dramatization, theatricality, and exaggerated expression of emotion
Is highly suggestible, i.e., easily influenced by others or circumstances
Considers relationships to be more intimate than they actually are

http://psychcentral.com/disorders/histrionic-personality-disorder-symptoms/

Michelle Carter likes attention all the time.

Michelle Carter shares characteristics with Jodi Arias, Casey Anthony, and Lori Drew when you look at them. I would suspect that Carter is very prone to anger like them.

This is what I think.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

My point was another. There were people who were trying to stop him from committing suicide, and this girl that was encouraging him to. If we hold her responsible for the "success" of her endeavor, should we also hold the people who failed responsible as well? Should they be charged with "criminal negligent manslaughter"* for failing to stop his death?

*[ A homicide resulting from the taking of an unreasonable and high degree of risk is usually considered criminally negligent manslaughter. Jurisdictions are divided on the question of whether the defendant must be aware of the risk. Modern criminal codes generally require a consciousness of risk, although, under some codes, the absence of this element makes the offense a less serious homicide.]

Thank you, you put nicely into words what I have been trying to articulate regarding this case. Which is, it could be the top of a slippery slope that we probably as a society do not want to go down. IMO of course.

I know this case is different, but: In the example of a teen who knew about someone who planned an attack on a school and encouraged the attacker to follow through, what if the encourager jokingly encouraged the attacker in the belief that the attacker wasn't serious about going through with it? Should the encourager be held accountable?

What if someone unaware of the dynamics of depression and suicide, in a fit of impatience, told a depressed person to just go ahead and kill him- or herself, and the depressed person did so, should that person be held responsible for the depressed person's death?

How about encouragement of suicide by omission? Say someone knows a friend who lives across the country is having a hard time and has every intention of checking in on that friend to support them, but gets really busy and a lot of time goes by and the troubled friend commits suicide? Is the busy friend in any way responsible for the troubled friend's death? Maybe hypothetically the busy friend could have saved the troubled friend with a simple unsolicited phone call if the troubled friend had sunk into the "no one cares" frame of mind and that call reminded them that wasn't true. So in that case, is the busy friend in any way responsible for the troubled friend's death for not making such a call?

These are all instances that I can see arising if we start holding people accountable for another person's suicide.

Everything I've ever read aimed at someone dealing with a loved one's suicide makes the point that no one can be held responsible for the actions of another.

Similarly, I've never seen a responsible parent whose child got in trouble at school listen to the excuse, "Well Susie told me to do it" and respond with, "Okay then, you're off the hook since Susie told you to do it." No, the usual response is "If Susie told you to jump off the roof, would you do that too?"

ETA: Full disclosure: I've had three dear friends commit suicide, two outright and one by self-neglect. I've struggled to get past all the woulda/coulda/shoulda thoughts that had I just done something different, each would still be alive.

I've come to realize, with the help of many sources aimed at those left behind, that such a view falsely inflates my influence and minimizes the person's self-determination.

ETA part 2: Again, I know this case is different. But the question of who can reasonably be held accountable for a suicide, aside from the victim, is the unifying theme.

 

[DexterMorgan]

I would just give the poor confused girl a hefty suspended sentence with strict guidelines. This way she will be sure to mind her business. Also i would force her to get psychiatric help.

 

[cocomod]

Although people are responsible for their own actions, as tlcya pointed out, there is some responsibility with the new norm of social media in today's world. When I went to HS, bullying was found at school. We didn't have as much suicide because of bullying. Now, bullying is at school , at home, and at any private place a teen tries to go. To me - in other words MOO - this girl is worse than a bully. She was a "friend" who helped to push this boy over the edge. If a bully can be charged for pushing someone into suicide; there should be something that this girl can be charged with. MOO

 

[pwesterner]

Wow - the messages he sent her were heartbreaking. I teared up when he said "I don’t understand how you love me please stay”

She did much worse than leaving. She failed him in the worst way possible. So sad.

 

[al66pine]

.... Like someone with undiagnosed or untreated diabetes that goes without food and has a seizure. If a friend Knew that person has diabetes and encouraged them to eat tons of sugar go without food allowing this person to go into diabetic shock. They would be partially responsible for that persons death. ....
Wouldn't we all be sitting here appalled if a teen had known about a planned attack on a school and encouraged the attacker to follow through. Even though the encourager didn't pull the trigger, they still assisted and conspired to murder innocent students....

sbm bbm

Your example: person w undiagnosed diabetes.
If person is undiagnosed then friend is also unaware of diagnosis & danger of encouraging sugar consumption, so how is friend criminally or civilly responsible in contributing to death?

If person diagnosed w diabetes, rcvd approp. nutrition edu, and if friend is aware of diagnosis and
if friend says 'Here's 5 pound chocolate bar,' then leaves,person eats and dies, is friend responsible?

Same, but friend says 'here's choc, it's yummy' stays & watches person eat & die, is friend responsible?

Re ^ I personally believe the friend is no friend and is disgusting, reprehensible, despicable, etc.
but not sure if friend is criminally responsible for the death.

Same but friend says 'Eat this, and if you don't I'll shoot you 5x in head w this gun,' stays, & person eats all & dies, yes, I believe friend should face criminal charges re death, & I hope is convicted, gets LWOP.

Diabetic w friend encouraging sugar consumption is not a good parallel, imo,
w MC encouraging Roy to get back in car - which he may or may not do.
Certain acts will clearly and predictably cause death; her last text to him, IDK.

School attack example is different altogether, imo, in that injury and/or death are inflicted upon unknowing third parties.

It's a heartbreaking situation, no matter how we see it in terms of criminal responsibility.
I cannot imagine being a parent of either teen involved. His parents w death of their child;
hers w learning their child did encouraged that. (Not a criticism of family.)

 

[mego0456]

I agree this country has got to a point where people no longer has personal responsibility, some cases have been over the top ridiculous IMO. Someone else is to blame for their actions just like the stage my 10 year old son is in (his sister always made him do it). Roy is facing his consequences and so should she. I'm all for free speech, and just plain freedom but what she did needs to be addressed as wrong, and shown to the public that this is wrong! How else are we going to get back to a country of personal responsibility if we let her get by on her actions? Or even question as to IF she has personal responsibility? Why doesn't she have personal responsibility and he is supposed to (in public's eye)?

Bullies have been charged with something if their victim committed suicide, and so should a friend. She didn't even bully him, she loving whispered it in his ear! IMO

 

[IzzyBlanche]

People do things every single day that are wrong, and the public knows they are wrong, but those actions aren't criminal.

I am aware bullies have been charged with something if their victims committed suicide, but have any of those cases ever made it to trial? In the case in Florida, I believe, where the victim jumped off a building, the charges were dropped.

ETA: Just did a quick google search and found the case of Phoebe Prince. Although those bullies were charged with a lot of things, assisted suicide and involuntary manslaughter weren't among them.

 

[al66pine]

People do things every single day that are wrong, and the public knows they are wrong, but those actions aren't criminal. ...

bbm sbm

Yes, Izzy.
Not everything 'wrong' can be criminalized.
Repeating, as I've posted before, that she said and did disgusting, reprehensible, awful, horrible things.

But did those actions cause his death?

JM2cts.

 

[DexterMorgan]

People do things every single day that are wrong, and the public knows they are wrong, but those actions aren't criminal.

I am aware bullies have been charged with something if their victims committed suicide, but have any of those cases ever made it to trial? In the case in Florida, I believe, where the victim jumped off a building, the charges were dropped.

ETA: Just did a quick google search and found the case of Phoebe Prince. Although those bullies were charged with a lot of things, assisted suicide and involuntary manslaughter weren't among them.

Sorry but you are wrong.

Melchert-Dinkel was charged with aiding the suicides of Drybrough and Kajouji and convicted in 2011 by Rice County Judge Thomas Neuville, who found that he “intentionally advised and encouraged” the victims to take their lives.

Defense attorney Terry Watkins appealed, saying Melchert-Dinkel’s actions might have been immoral, but they were not illegal. Melchert-Dinkel remained free on appeal.



The justices found that*part of Minnesota’s law that bans someone from “encouraging” or “advising” suicide is unconstitutional because it encompasses speech protected under the First Amendment.


But the justices upheld part of the law*that makes it a crime to “assist” in someone’s suicide —*and said speech could be considered assisting.



http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2014/1...ide-gets-jail/


So depending on her states supreme justice. She can be found guilty.

 

[believe09]

This girl will undoubtedly get help and is receiving it now. I feel that there is a very strong possibility that this will be part of the statements made by her attorney in the next hearing or two.

Free speech is not a legitimate out-there is something very broken with a person that would behave in this fashion. She liked it. It is obvious she reveled in this situation. She prolonged it by her fundraiser. You dont get a pass in a situation like this by saying it is free speech-she actively contributed either because she wanted to see how far this would go (how dramatic and exciting for her) or because she was pulling the strings and she loved it. MOO.

Her friends, friends mind you, believe/ed she is/was a liar and self aggrandizing. Except she wasnt this time. She deliberately withheld her contact with him and possibly his whereabouts from his increasingly anxious family and from anyone who could help him. She went on to bait them with messages regarding his state of mind, fueling their grief and feelings of guilt. (jmvho.) That isnt free speech-that is her either assisting his suicide (ie manslaughter) or encouraging/facilitating his death ie manslaughter. And it wasnt enough-she constantly stirred it up and used it again and again. jmo.

This kind of broken doesnt get to just move on with the rest of us. She is a danger to the next vulnerable creature she comes across. Having no capacity to be compassionate and act like another normal human being would under these circumstances is not protected by free speech. She knew right from wrong-she knew she was busted when LE took the phone and she knew she could go to jail. She knew what she had done.

 

[Cracka*Jaxx]

Charles Manson comes to mind. He's in prison for 'encouraging' his followers to kill, but he didn't do the killing himself. MC encouraged Conrad Roy to kill himself. Isn't this somewhat similar?

 

[liljim]

bbm sbm

Yes, Izzy.
Not everything 'wrong' can be criminalized.
Repeating, as I've posted before, that she said and did disgusting, reprehensible, awful, horrible things.

But did those actions cause his death?

JM2cts.

if he was intoxicated beyond the point of reason and she encouraged him to do this would you think she had committed a crime?

if he was certifiably mentally ill beyond the point of reason and she encouraged him to do this would you think she had committed a crime?

if he was very young and unable to fully understand the consequences and she encouraged him to do this would you think she had committed a crime?

 

[mego0456]

so I did some searching... Apparently if an attack happened and someone jokingly said "kill them all" thinking the attacker wasn't serious is NOT a crime. Not going to your friends house and she commits suicide is NOT a crime... What she did IS:


http://www.uscourts.gov/educational...n-activities/first-amendment/free-speech.aspx

Freedom of speech does not include the right:

To incite actions that would harm others (e.g., “hout[ing] ‘fire’ in a crowded theater.&#8221.
Schenck v. United States, 249 U.S. 47 (1919).

She clearly incited actions that would/could harm him.


http://www.americanbar.org/groups/p...atives_awards/students_in_action/schenck.html

Justice Holmes's decision expresses what is called the "clear and present danger test." This test has been used in many other cases. A famous lower court judge named Learned Hand once said that whenever the government claims that someone's speech poses a danger, judges must consider both the seriousness of the danger and the likelihood of it actually happening. For instance, suppose someone makes a speech calling the government a dictatorship and hinting that revolution would be a good idea. Overthrow is the most serious evil that can happen to the government. But that person may not be punished for his words unless they really do make this danger likely.

Clearly she knew there was clear and present danger and it would likely happen. Seeing as how it did happen, he got out and it happened again.

I tried quoting Izzy's post a few posts back it didn't work #385
IMO that's how I understood it...

 

[groovygrl]

I've been reading this thread and these things are triggering deep painful feelings in me...Three months ago, after being prescribed klonipin for mild anxiety (SO WRONG ON SO MANY LEVELS) my son decided he couldn't deal with the increasing anxiety caused by the withdrawals between doses and the doctor wouldn't help without another office visit, he decided to jump off a parking structure near his house. He texted me goodbye and called his ex-girlfriend. She kept him on the phone for an hour while I frantically called 911 and had the police looking for him. She had talked him out of it by the time the police found him, took him into custody and placed him on a 5150 hold. It took two weeks in a psych hospital to finish the withdrawals and I was able to take him home with me where he is getting the help he really needed in the first place. Now, I am so grateful to several people, his ex-girlfriend first for talking to him and treating him with respect. SHE saved his life. And to the LAPD for finding him and keeping in constant communication with me (which might have saved my life).
This could have gone so differently. Both for the boy in this thread and for mine.

I'm withholding judgement until I know exactly what those text messages contained. There were a lot of text messages flying back and forth. Eighteen year olds are so so naive about their ability to control situations. They're both more powerful and less invincible than they think. And I think a lot of this is going to hinge on her intent. Did she really intend for him to die? Did she really think he was serious or just manipulating her again. She most certainly needs a thorough psych evaluation to see if she really is a borderline personality. If she is, she's very very dangerous and I thank God she wasn't who my son called that night in December.

 

[KindraLore]

I think what it all comes down to for me is this: What if she had just butted out period? Not encourage or discouraged him in any way? When he stepped out of that truck and felt as though he would miss his family and he didn't want to do this - would he have? I think not. I think her encouragement sealed the deal.

Most people that want to kill themselves rarely reach out to others for advice and encouragement on how to do it, much less when they are in the act - if they are reaching out in the act, they really want it stopped. I had a friend commit suicide and she took a bunch a pills. At no time before had she ever told anyone she was about to. It was after she had taken the pills and started feeling the effects of it that she found her husband and said, "I've done something bad..." She wanted his help at that point or she would have just waited to die. It was too late for her. She had waited too long.

My point is if someone is reaching out in the act, they want someone to stop it. He unfortunately found someone to not only encourage him but make him feel like if she (The one he supposedly loved) wanted him to, he must overcome all those bells and whistles going off and get back in the truck and do it. In my heart I do believe had she not even been a factor in the equation he would not have went through with it.

 

[Cubby]

Without MC's involvement, I don't know that he would have ever been in the car with the generator in the first place. I'm interested in learning how the decision to use the generator was made. I strongly suspect it was MC's idea and they researched together what type of generator was needed to produce enough carbon monoxide.