VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #14

[Moonstrawbs]

They are probably hung up on the lesser charges, wondering if they convict her on those charges for being drunk and driving.

IMO

I think you're right.

 

[turaj]

I am hoping that changing that verdict form did not confuse them into thinking more seriously about lessers. I think they would be interested in wrapping this up today as it is likely many have plans for getting an early start on the weekend. For them summer has really not started yet with the burden of this trial hanging over. Often lesser charges are a compromise verdict but in this case would just be wrong. Then the entire cast of characters in that house that night should be convicted along with KR.

 

[AnyNameIWish]

He didn't have a watch. His Apple Fitness app showed him walking up 3 (I believe) flights of stairs. The CW used their usual argument of "the technology is wrong"

I mean... 3 FLIGHTS?? (Dang, how big are these houses?) So... yeah. I don't buy any of this "the tech is wrong", no way.

Thank you for the correction about it being his Fitness App.

That plus the injury that looks like a dog attack, does it for me.

 

[sunspun]

There is no way to calculate how long he was out in the cold from his body temperature.

Evaluation of Postmortem Changes - StatPearls - NCBI Bookshelf

Postmortem changes constitute the natural progression of the body’s decomposition after death, beginning at the cellular level. The process involves complex cellular and biological phenomena. The changes that commence immediately after death continue to occur over a prolonged period at different...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Algor mortis is the postmortem cooling of body temperature until it equalizes the temperature of the surrounding environment. The rate of cooling lags initially, then becomes linear before slowing down again as it approaches the ambient temperature, giving a sigmoid-shaped curve when graphically represented. The ambient temperature is a critical factor that affects the rate of postmortem cooling of the body. Postmortem cooling of the body continues for about 6 hours after death, and the rate of cooling is primarily dependent on the difference in body temperature at the time of death and the temperature of its surroundings. The rate of cooling will hasten in a body immersed in water, a naked body, and a thin body. The rate of cooling will be slower in a well-clothed body and an obese body. A prudent forensic pathologist will not estimate the time since death based on the single criterion of algor mortis. The rate of postmortem cooling of the body is affected by multiple variables.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that as saying that TOD isn't ever based on body temp alone, since postmortem cooling of a body is affected by multiple variables. But does that mean that if those relevant multiple variables were all known in any particular case, then TOD could be established based on postmortem temp of the body? Perhaps not though, I don't know.

But regardless, we're not actually talking about using body temp to determine time of death in this case; we're talking about determining approximately how long the body could have been out in the cold before it was found, given that body temp was 80 when found. And we have a generous leeway or range of uncertainty for our purposes here of at least a few hours. So it does seem like it should be useful info here that the body temp was 80 when found. I would assume that even if bodies cool at different rates, depending on multiple factors, that experts still can state within a few hours range, what temp a body should be after being outside in the snow for some time. Maybe it does have a wide range, but I wouldn't think it ranges THAT wildly, but again, I don't know. Would the range for a body that had been out in the cold for 6 hours overlap with the range for a body that had been out in the cold for half that time? That's worded confusingly, I'm afraid.

I'm losing sight of my point! (it's me not you) It just seems like when JO's body temp was found to be 80 degrees, that there would be a consensus of opinion among experts that either he could or couldn't have been lying in the snow for as long as 6 hours. I think that's about the amount of time that had transpired since KR would've left him in the snow, according to the prosecution's claims. Since the ambient temp is not in dispute and is a known variable, and all bodies start out at approx 98.6, couldn't they estimate, at least within a few hours, how long it would take a body to reach 80 degrees? If so, that is useful info for our purposes, even with that wide of a range of uncertainty, since we're working with such a long span of time since around midnight when KR left (approximately), til around 6 am or so when they found him.

But if it can vary by more than I'm expecting it can, then you may be right, that info might not help to determine how long he had been there (and thus, whether or not KR could've fatally struck him with her car before she left the scene.) If I get a moment, I'll see what I can research on this point this afternoon.

 

[Moonstrawbs]

On the 3rd day of jury deliberations, this is taking longer than Proctor's entire "investigation". jmo.

 

[mzmarymac]

I was unable to listen to every moment of testimony on this one...

Question please.
Was it shown that JO climbed stairs according to Apple watch data? How many steps? At the exact time he would have been at the house?

If the answers are yes to 2 of these 3 questions, I cannot understand how KR is guilty.

I asked a similar question a couple of times and haven't gotten anyone who can answer yet. I've been trying to figure out how, if his phone WAS in the house and did register steps and/or flights of stairs, then why didn't it register anything when it was taken back out to the front of the house in the middle of the night?

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I mean... 3 FLIGHTS?? (Dang, how big are these houses?) So... yeah. I don't buy any of this "the tech is wrong", no way.

Thank you for the correction about it being his Fitness App.

That plus the injury that looks like a dog attack, does it for me.

I believe they said it was because the vehicle was “going over hills”? Pretty much any technological evidence that supported KR was deemed as incorrect. Other people’s deleted calls and searches were just “deleted by the system” though I’m sure if they pointed towards KR then the broken technology excuse wouldn’t fly. JMO

 

[jepop]

I agree with all you said, very well stated. I just have one comment. Bruses take time to appear he died or was very close to death within a few hours of injury from her car. All of his body functions were shutting down. Just My Opinion

Medical experts all testified without question or challenge that if JO had been hit by a vehicle they would expect to see at a minimum bruising at autopsy. The actual ME was unable to explain the lack of bruising.JO's body had no brusing even on the arm claimed by CW to have been struck. He was not struck by a vehicle IMO.

All I can say is I believe it's reasonable to accept the opinon from multiple medical experts, rather than the contrary opinions I have read of people who are not familiar with the autopsy. And In the case of the jury, they have no opposing expert opinions to consider because the cw didn't provide them with any. moo

 

[Wishbone]

I agree with all you said, very well stated. I just have one comment. Bruses take time to appear he died or was very close to death within a few hours of injury from her car. All of his body functions were shutting down. Just My Opinion

Seems broken bones were discussed as well as bruises.....

 

[jepop]

There are many things about this case that are just wild to me. But the wildest has to be that the defense appear to have actively made more of an effort to investigate the circumstances surrounding John O'Keefe's death than the CW has.

And the defense has done such a good job that it's the CW having to make up crazy excuses for the evidence not fitting their case.

jmo

It's totally reversed which as you say is just wild. Nuts!!!

 

[OldCop]

I agree with that. There was nothing inappropriate done in front of the jury. Judicially, she was fine. However, the cameras were rolling. Judge, in her momentary lack of reasoning, forgot that. Under such, she herself just moments before scolding KR for laughing, had giggled/chuckled out loud at Yannetti's comment about him not ever seeing a Verdict form like that before. Then she does her snarling take-down of KR for laughing. Netflix was watching.....We all were watching.

She needed to act quickly to redeem herself, and she did. But we saw it.

I do wonder who will portray her in the series.

Patricia Arquette

 

[MyJoey]

I was unable to listen to every moment of testimony on this one...

Question please.
Was it shown that JO climbed stairs according to Apple watch data? How many steps? At the exact time he would have been at the house?

If the answers are yes to 2 of these 3 questions, I cannot understand how KR is guilty.

I’m sure someone will jump on the defense side but prosecution said the steps were taken before his gps arrived at the house.

 

[nodamselindistress]

Right prosecution said steps/stairs happened while JO was still in the car!

 

[Moonstrawbs]

I asked a similar question a couple of times and haven't gotten anyone who can answer yet. I've been trying to figure out how, if his phone WAS in the house and did register steps and/or flights of stairs, then why didn't it register anything when it was taken back out to the front of the house in the middle of the night?

I may have missed this. I have looked into this in the past and it seems like if the phone is in a bag, it doesn't seem to register steps. This is from looking online and into iphones specifically. jmo.

 

[Aquarian]

start at 26.53, I suggest

Ok I reviewed this. Are you asking or pointing something out specific?

 

[Spectrix]

Not convinced that a typical glass would crack a tail light- I think the glass would break but not the plastic tail light. I think you would need a big rock or a hammer or another vehicle IMO. Any car mechanics in WS?

You're absolutely correct, and you ought to watch the defence expert testimonies. All three of them were brilliant and one of them did cover this scenario.

In order to ascertain if it was plausible that a cocktail glass could crack or demolish the Lexus tail light, they literally built a pneumatic canon to fire consecutive shots, each using an increasing amount of pressure. The consensus was that it wasn't possible that the glass was broken by the Lexus backing into JOK's outstretched arm holding the glass (at the 24MPH claimed by the CW).

They found that the only way they were able to crack the tail light was to fire the glass at the tail light in excess of 39 MPH. So their conclusion was that it was plausible that the glass could have cracked the tail light, but only if it was thrown.

 

[Yemelyan]

I was unable to listen to every moment of testimony on this one...

Question please.
Was it shown that JO climbed stairs according to Apple watch data? How many steps? At the exact time he would have been at the house?

If the answers are yes to 2 of these 3 questions, I cannot understand how KR is guilty.

This was interesting testimony from the trial. I'm inclined to believe that out of all the data in this case that possibly could be wrong, this is the data that I most believe could be inaccurate. Maybe because I know that my fitness app sometimes says I am swimming when I am actually folding laundry.

I was recently watching a different live trial (the Susana Morales case) where a teen was kidnapped by an off-duty cop. She was taken in his car, and then at some point killed and placed in the woods off the side of a rural highway. Investigators used data from Fitness apps on both the victim and perpetrators phones to show activity levels, when they occurred and what they showed. The prosecutor at one point asked about the data point "stairs climbed" that occurred after the kidnapping took place but when it was presumed the victim and perpetrator still would have been in his car and the lead detective said that this is commonly seen with "elevation changes," it often has nothing to do with stairs actually being climbed. My head swiveled around when I heard that come up in this other case. This was said very matter of factly, almost dismissively and not challenged on a technical basis as far as I know (I haven't watching the entire trial yet).

 

[Aquarian]

Replying to a quote brain injured people can move around.

I know many here think I’m crazy to have posted that. But my view comes from experience. I worked neuro icu as one example, so I have seen it. Not saying it’s always just that it can.

 

[minazoe]

okay so I do know someone who was at a dog park and a German Shepard attacked another dog..in the scuffle the other dog owner reached in to try to dully punch the dog to get his mouth off her dog..well she ended up hitting the owner of the German Shepard in the nose and broke her nose because she also was moving towards the dog at the same time.

is it possible someone took a bat to try and get the dog off of John and inadvertently hit him in the head?

just thoughts. The scrapes and scratches could be caused by a human..did they ever check his body for DNA? Dog DNA?

mOO

 

[jepop]

I am hoping that changing that verdict form did not confuse them into thinking more seriously about lessers. I think they would be interested in wrapping this up today as it is likely many have plans for getting an early start on the weekend. For them summer has really not started yet with the burden of this trial hanging over. Often lesser charges are a compromise verdict but in this case would just be wrong. Then the entire cast of characters in that house that night should be convicted along with KR.

The lessers still require he was hit by lexus though, so in terms of the engineering, dog marks and medical evidence nothing changes. If they're stuck on the lessers then it would mean they're ignoring the expert evidence and have only found there was no intent. jmo