VERDICT WATCH MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #14

Status
Not open for further replies.
None of the charges require her to have hit him with the car.

Please re-read the rather lengthy discussion of this on previous threads

Of course 2nd degree murder does not explicitly require a car hit. After all, 2nd degree murder could occur with a gun, or a knife or a crowbar, or with someone's bare hands.

The prosecution still has to prove their theory, however, and their theory is that Karen killed John by backing up her SUV into him. And so, that is what they must prove.
 
Last edited:
i think at this point safe to think that one or more are not on board with next move and some discussion happening. Hoping others can convince them.
Although no proof, I have always held a strong suspicion that at times (not always) strong arm twisting can be involved. And some cases that end up with a not guilty or guilty verdict, are not agreed upon by all 12 jurors. Some cave for various reasons, and while they believe one way, will go ahead and vote another way just to get done with it.
 
Yes, about that.

Makes me recall this CW witness testimony

“I saw there was some damage to the right rear tail light,” he said. “It was cracked. A piece was missing. But it was not completely damaged.” - Dighton Police Sgt. Nicholas Barros

Quoting myself to emphasize how an unbiased witness testified that he observed a single piece of the tail light missing before it was taken into Canton PD custody and not 47 pieces missing after it was taken into Canton PD custody.

'I was told there would be no math'

LOLOLOL what a farce this all is LOLOLOL
 
I loved that part because the defense also said it was broken by a slight tap on JO's van. And that's the value of expert witnesses.

Easy. The treated glass is harder than any part of the human body. JO's car also weighs significantly more than a human body thus offering literally tons more resistance. Two heavy objects of roughly equal weight bumping into each other do not need significantly speed or power to cause damage. KR's car did not need any significant amount of speed to crack her tail light ( and we have witness testimony that say the tail light was cracked and had a small hole in it not smashed in to 40 some odd pieces the cw claims to have found!) Anyone who has ever been in a minor fender bender is always amazed out how much damage a minor bump can cause.

There is no way for a human arm to break the tail light of KR 's car. JO's body doesn't not weigh enough to hold enough resistance to break the glass. The energy is dissipated and absorbed by JO's body not the 2 ton car, which at 24mph would not be enough to throw him 30 feet from the point of impact. It's simple physics really. And if Trooper paul had made any kind of reasonable calculations he would have found it impossible for JO's body to miracle itself 30 ft away from the point of impact. I really don't see how this is even in question.
 
Last edited:
I loved that part because the defense also said it was broken by a slight tap on JO's van. And that's the value of expert witnesses.
It took more than a 'slight tap' to move the wheel.
I still don't know why the dog dead or alive was not examined to see if those were his bite marks. If so proof of his being in the house.
I don't either..
especially seeing as that Albert's wife, name gone testified that she was elsewhere but available.. suggesting she is alive..
 
I’m getting nervous about this verdict now. At first I thought they were just being meticulous and thorough…now I think there’s a least one holdout. For her to be found guilty, someone would have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that she hit him with her car and I just can’t wrap my head around that! Even if you think she probably did, or maybe did, or could have…that’s not enough for a guilty verdict. I thought for sure we would have a verdict by now.
 
I’m getting nervous about this verdict now. At first I thought they were just being meticulous and thorough…now I think there’s a least one holdout. For her to be found guilty, someone would have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that she hit him with her car and I just can’t wrap my head around that! Even if you think she probably did, or maybe did, or could have…that’s not enough for a guilty verdict. I thought for sure we would have a verdict by now.
my guess is one or more hold outs for some lesser which the rest don't want. I don't think compromise here will be easy. We might see a note before the day is over if this continues.
 
I wonder how Yannetti feels about some of his co-counsel's antics. Yannetti has to work in that court room after this is all over and possibly face the same judge. Once the verdict is in Jackson is out of there and will likely never be back in that town.
A defense lawyer goes into every court room surrounded by his adversaries, its the nature of the beast and is generally accompanied by a thick skin. Yannetti may well be inspired by Jackson's acuity and may even enjoy the upheaval Jackson has rendered to the CW case.
If Jackson has been guilty of any "antics", some of them were targeting the prosecution's witnesses but many were focused on the judge. MOO: the judge is due some comeuppance, the entire proceeding has reeked from her bias.
Whether we see more of Jackson in a MA courtroom depends on the verdict: because I believe any conviction is going to result in an appeal and the basis of appeal will certainly include some contesting of the judge's rulings. Whether he is counsel or witness, a guilty verdict will put Jackson back in an MA courtroom.
 
Purely speculative post incoming:
For my medically inclined sluthers, MD/RN/PA/DO/NP/
etc sluthies if you will. I’m struggling a bit with JOk’s autopsy and injuries.

Hypothetically, would someone with those injuries to his head be able to survive with swift medical intervention? Is it possible to get treatment for such head injuries? Could you prevent the brain stem herniation? What type of treatment exists for these blows to the head, if any?
I find medical evidence so fascinating but alas I work in tech and google only helps so much, lol.
*purely speculative and hypothetical
Hypothetically - yes. Skill fractures can be treated. As can traumatic brain injuries. Much would depend on immediate trauma scores, neurological assessment and findings of his particular injury or injuries to be given "odds" or a percent survival estimate. No two traumatic brain injuries will be the same. We have no idea what his findings would have been had he made it to an ER immediately though. Time is indeed a factor, especially with an evolving presentation (brain damage getting worse, but a fracture isn't going to get worse). I believe the ME said this wouldn't have been an immediate death (possibly hours IIRC). But seconds matter, and if someone had called 911 immediately and he was stabilized at a local ER then successfully transported to a trauma center for further care then I would think the survival odds certainly would not be 0% unless there was zero brain activity noted at intake. So even if it's a 1% chance of survival, it's still a chance.

Treatment possible - yes, but depends on these emergent and neurosurgeon assessments including trauma scores, brain function scores, & CT findings. At minimum. They'd be looking for abnormal central nervous system reflexes and findings, as well as deformation or damage of the brain on CT, EEG activity, and bleeds that can be treated. Not everything can be safely treated if risks far outweigh wait and monitor however.

Treatment options - again, based on findings, but surely there would be life saving efforts to stop a brain bleed, regulate blood pressure, prevent shock or perhaps induce a coma if he wasn't already there, alleviate intracranial pressure with a craniotomy if indicated and he was stable enough to endure and possibly survive the procedure. All assuming no other systems had started shutting down yet, he wasn't seizing or there weren't other secondary complications that had to be dealt with.

People have survived far worse injuries such as bullets tearing through a brain because of quick intervention. It would be hard to say he wouldn't have had a chance though with the information available.

And this also assuming he didn't have a "do not resuscitate" or advanced directive limiting treatment interventions in place.

MOO
 
One thing I have to say, and I think the majority of you will agree with me, is that I have a great dislike for Jennifer McCabe. To me, she came across as combative and hateful on the witness stand. I would not want to be her friend. LOL!!!
Also, can any of you explain to me why Karen Read did not take the stand? With her professing her innocence, I would think she would be very persistent on doing that. I know her lawyers advised her not to (99.9% of defense lawyers do not want their clients to be on that stand) because questions the prosecution might ask. But some do anyway. But found it interesting.
 
I’m getting nervous about this verdict now. At first I thought they were just being meticulous and thorough…now I think there’s a least one holdout. For her to be found guilty, someone would have to be convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that she hit him with her car and I just can’t wrap my head around that! Even if you think she probably did, or maybe did, or could have…that’s not enough for a guilty verdict. I thought for sure we would have a verdict by now.
The longer this drags out, the more likely it will be a hung jury. Which is not good for either side.
 
I believe they said it was because the vehicle was “going over hills”? Pretty much any technological evidence that supported KR was deemed as incorrect. Other people’s deleted calls and searches were just “deleted by the system” though I’m sure if they pointed towards KR then the broken technology excuse wouldn’t fly. JMO
My Apple Watch doesn't register half the stairs I take and sometimes I WISH it would count the short and steep hills I sometimes walk and regularly drive. Which it never has. I don't buy the hill registering as stairs at all. IMO.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
90
Guests online
1,931
Total visitors
2,021

Forum statistics

Threads
598,048
Messages
18,074,975
Members
230,513
Latest member
soraxtm
Back
Top