MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #6

[Aquarian]

Still does not explain the blood dripping down both his outer and inner shirts.

How do we know he didn’t move initially after being hit? Some say his phone said he went up 3 flights of stairs. Not that I’m sold on that at this point, but he may have moved about in some way. Just kindly wondering what your or others thoughts would be on that.

 

[nodamselindistress]

How do we know he didn’t move initially after being hit? Some say his phone said he went up 3 flights of stairs. Not that I’m sold on that at this point, but he may have moved about in some way. Just kindly wondering what your or others thoughts would be on that.

Until we hear from the ME I can't know for sure, but if the CW theory is (and it seems to be) that she hit him so hard with the SUV that it caused this huge wound to the back of his head and he was knocked backwards, onto his back, the blood should not have dripped down his shirt. It would go into the snow or the ground. Head wounds bleed profusely.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Don't know exact charge against Proctor himself or if before all this or during. I mean the exact reason.

Currently there are no charges against Proctor.

The FBI doesn't generally go around inserting themselves in state crimes. For them to even get to the grand jury stage here is pretty remarkable and they must have had reason to do so. There are some anti-Karen Read pundits who insist the FBI only got involved because someone's wife had an axe to grind with the DA's office or because Yannetti was friends with someone. I can't buy such lame reasons. "Looking into" things is one thing. Putting together a grand jury is another.

The FBI did share information from their investigation into....something.... and this includes the information from Proctor's phone which is how we know he illegally searched Karen's phone (she voluntarily handed it over but he didn't have a warrant yet to search it) looking for nude pics of her and telling pals he wished she'd just kill herself. (Why is that, Mike?)

He's not going to get away with that, even if there is no way to definitively prove he planted evidence here. And yet he's still on the force. As a Massachusetts resident, I find this scary as there are other murderers out there who are in prison because of his work and it stands to reason some of them will get new trials once he's removed from office.

This puts the state in a difficult position. For instance, he's been the lead investigator on the Brian Walshe case, a guy who is alleged to have murdered his wife. He's awaiting trial. It's a tough case because there is no body. But I'm sure his defense counsel is watching the Read case closely, hoping Proctor is shown to be a fraud. Or is at least charged with violating Read's constitutional right against illegal search and seizure.

And this is why I think the DA has decided to push the Read case through, weak as it is. Jury is tricked by high cost attorneys into actually believing she's innocent! Crazy. Let's move on now.

The big question, which I think you've alluded to, is was the FBI already working on something related to state troopers, including Proctor, even before getting involved in the Read case. No one knows the answer to this. But I wouldn't be shocked to find out this isn't the first time he's done illegal things. I think he's behaved exceptionally boldly here and you don't just become exceptionally bold overnight.

 

[Aquarian]

Until we hear from the ME I can't know for sure, but if the CW theory is (and it seems to be) that she hit him so hard with the SUV that it caused this huge wound to the back of his head and he was knocked backwards, onto his back, the blood should not have dripped down his shirt. It would go into the snow or the ground. Head wounds bleed profusely.

I know ppl mocked my hydrant thought, but at this point without further info, I think in the world of theorizing it is a possibility to me, vs the SVU causing the injury. IMO

 

[nodamselindistress]

I know ppl mocked my hydrant thought, but at this point without further info, I think in the world of theorizing it is a possibility to me, vs the SVU causing the injury. IMO

I think he hit his head on something, too.

 

[Wishbone]

I believe that the prosecution has put forth the evidence that they have. At the end Karen will be found not guilty. All that will be left is the O'Keefe family who will forever live with not only the loss of their family member but without justice for the person who killed him. I believe that Karen killed him because she was driving impaired. She'll walk on all charges due to the poorly run investigation.
I predict that Karen writes a book.

If KR is found not guilty then justice has been served in her case. She is entitled to a fair trial, which includes a competent investigation, which she has not received. I will not deem her guilty without a fair trial. I would like to see the real killers brought to justice, but this case being the mess that it is, it may not happen. This case was made to be a docudrama.JMOO

 

[nodamselindistress]

Currently there are no charges against Proctor.

The FBI doesn't generally go around inserting themselves in state crimes. For them to even get to the grand jury stage here is pretty remarkable and they must have had reason to do so. There are some anti-Karen Read pundits who insist the FBI only got involved because someone's wife had an axe to grind with the DA's office or because Yannetti was friends with someone. I can't buy such lame reasons. "Looking into" things is one thing. Putting together a grand jury is another.

The FBI did share information from their investigation into....something.... and this includes the information from Proctor's phone which is how we know he illegally searched Karen's phone (she voluntarily handed it over but he didn't have a warrant yet to search it) looking for nude pics of her and telling pals he wished she'd just kill herself. (Why is that, Mike?)

He's not going to get away with that, even if there is no way to definitively prove he planted evidence here. And yet he's still on the force. As a Massachusetts resident, I find this scary as there are other murderers out there who are in prison because of his work and it stands to reason some of them will get new trials once he's removed from office.

This puts the state in a difficult position. For instance, he's been the lead investigator on the Brian Walshe case, a guy who is alleged to have murdered his wife. He's awaiting trial. It's a tough case because there is no body. But I'm sure his defense counsel is watching the Read case closely, hoping Proctor is shown to be a fraud. Or is at least charged with violating Read's constitutional right against illegal search and seizure.

And this is why I think the DA has decided to push the Read case through, weak as it is. Jury is tricked by high cost attorneys into actually believing she's innocent! Crazy. Let's move on now.

The big question, which I think you've alluded to, is was the FBI already working on something related to state troopers, including Proctor, even before getting involved in the Read case. No one knows the answer to this. But I wouldn't be shocked to find out this isn't the first time he's done illegal things. I think he's behaved exceptionally boldly here and you don't just become exceptionally bold overnight.

Not being local, this is a lot to absorb. Harkens back to earlier times of corruption in our system, or perhaps I am just naive.

 

[HarmonyE.]

Not being local, this is a lot to absorb. Harkens back to earlier times of corruption in our system, or perhaps I am just naive.

Oh, I think it goes on everywhere there's a good ole boy network. This one is just a perfect storm. Which is why I love the transparency of televised trials, the *First Amendment, and defendants with enough funds to fight back.

*For the record, I don't believe witness intimidation is covered by the First Amendment.

 

[LaineyJ]

Still does not explain the blood dripping down both his outer and inner shirts.

No, but I’m just curious, since we know head wounds bleed a lot and I don’t think I’ve ever wondered about blood going into soil.

Wasn’t he found 12ft from the curb? (I could be wrong, if so let me know) I’m not sure what could have made such a gash … on relatively flat ground. That goes for both head and arm wounds.

 

[HarmonyE.]

I know ppl mocked my hydrant thought, but at this point without further info, I think in the world of theorizing it is a possibility to me, vs the SVU causing the injury. IMO

I thought the CW was going with "he hit the hydrant", but unfortunately for them, all first responders and witnesses place him near the flagpole and not near the hydrant. See Google maps; they're a good distance away from each other.

They can still try; maybe claim he bounced off the hydrant and landed near the flagpole, but I don't think that dog is gonna hunt for the jury.

But speaking of dogs, I can see the jury believing a dog caused all those punctures in his sweatshirt. They've always looked like claw marks to me and as the canine DNA expert testified claws don't tend to transfer DNA.....

 

[nodamselindistress]

So I recall Hartnett saying she looked at the right sleeve of JO's sweatshirt and would examine for frayed ends, etc. I just do not recall if she came to a conclusion on that or if that would be up to some expert? Clearly she is not an expert.

 

[keek]

Currently there are no charges against Proctor.

The FBI doesn't generally go around inserting themselves in state crimes. For them to even get to the grand jury stage here is pretty remarkable and they must have had reason to do so. There are some anti-Karen Read pundits who insist the FBI only got involved because someone's wife had an axe to grind with the DA's office or because Yannetti was friends with someone. I can't buy such lame reasons. "Looking into" things is one thing. Putting together a grand jury is another.

The FBI did share information from their investigation into....something.... and this includes the information from Proctor's phone which is how we know he illegally searched Karen's phone (she voluntarily handed it over but he didn't have a warrant yet to search it) looking for nude pics of her and telling pals he wished she'd just kill herself. (Why is that, Mike?)

He's not going to get away with that, even if there is no way to definitively prove he planted evidence here. And yet he's still on the force. As a Massachusetts resident, I find this scary as there are other murderers out there who are in prison because of his work and it stands to reason some of them will get new trials once he's removed from office.

This puts the state in a difficult position. For instance, he's been the lead investigator on the Brian Walshe case, a guy who is alleged to have murdered his wife. He's awaiting trial. It's a tough case because there is no body. But I'm sure his defense counsel is watching the Read case closely, hoping Proctor is shown to be a fraud. Or is at least charged with violating Read's constitutional right against illegal search and seizure.

And this is why I think the DA has decided to push the Read case through, weak as it is. Jury is tricked by high cost attorneys into actually believing she's innocent! Crazy. Let's move on now.

The big question, which I think you've alluded to, is was the FBI already working on something related to state troopers, including Proctor, even before getting involved in the Read case. No one knows the answer to this. But I wouldn't be shocked to find out this isn't the first time he's done illegal things. I think he's behaved exceptionally boldly here and you don't just become exceptionally bold overnight.

Thank you for thoughtful response and information. HE is lead investigator on Ana W? Nothing better interfere in that. I have followed that awful, awful case. Heartbreaking as well.
SO bold and he knew and knows 'his people' and how they work together, when 'needed'. He will be gone but yes, sickening to know that all Proctor cases will be called into question legally and they are BAD ones as you know.

An arrogant and twisted mind State Trooper in this case, felt the thrill I think in making KR, who he believed hit and killed JO, BPD as well, wanted to make very sure it would stick gloriously, instead of letting it play out as being found guilty as she probably would of if she hadn't fought the charges. Oh, and looking so wonderful to his 'friends' . WORKED OUT? Love the 'gift' 'text' or call to Proctor from JMc. No need Jen, he's doing his job, sooo. He accepted too.

 

[HarmonyE.]

An arrogant and twisted mind State Trooper in this case, felt the thrill I think in making KR, who he believed hit and killed JO, BPD as well, wanted to make very sure it would stick gloriously, instead of letting it play out as being found guilty as she probably would of if she hadn't fought the charges. Oh, and looking so wonderful to his 'friends' . WORKED OUT? Love the 'gift' 'text' or call to Proctor from JMc. No need Jen, he's doing his job, sooo. He accepted too.

I originally thought he thought KR was guilty but unable to see any obvious evidence that she hit him and completely unaware of the Ring footage of Read hitting JO's car at 5 am, he thought he'd help things along by planting taillight at the scene. (takes some balls, especially after the Canton PD had searched the area much earlier).

Now I'm not sure whether he knew what went on in the house that night or not. You have to be more than a little unhinged to tell your old HS buddies you were searching for nude pics on a defendant's phone.

 

[keek]

Still does not explain the blood dripping down both his outer and inner shirts.

So much of it.

 

[keek]

I originally thought he thought KR was guilty but unable to see any obvious evidence that she hit him and completely unaware of the Ring footage of Read hitting JO's car at 5 am, he thought he'd help things along by planting taillight at the scene. (takes some balls, especially after the Canton PD had searched the area much earlier).

Now I'm not sure whether he knew what went on in the house that night or not. You have to be more than a little unhinged to tell your old HS buddies you were searching for nude pics on a defendant's phone.

See his mentality in all these things? SAFE, invincible. 'COOOOL'.

 

[Slick762]

Could blood have gone through what little bit of snow was under him, and into the soil/ground? Not sure how that works

The blood, assuming it's fresh and warm, could melt through the snow where it lands. But it takes a fair amount to do that. Blood spray, say from a gunshot wound or bad enough cuts on an arm, would cool quickly to ambient temperature and stay on top of the snow, but be covered with fresh snowfall.
Small drops, however, would probably penetrate the snow deep enough to be harder to see and would be pretty hard to spot at night. I would normally presume the crime scene people used a UV light, but in this case who knows?

And before anyone worries about how I know this, I'm a hunter in MI. Blood on snow is a normal occurrence. Sometimes, it's not even mine.

 

[ch_13]

I believe that the prosecution has put forth the evidence that they have. At the end Karen will be found not guilty. All that will be left is the O'Keefe family who will forever live with not only the loss of their family member but without justice for the person who killed him. I believe that Karen killed him because she was driving impaired. She'll walk on all charges due to the poorly run investigation.
I predict that Karen writes a book.

The police arrested Karen Read within 3 days of John's death. And by that summer the prosecution had upped the charge from manslaughter to murder.

Why was there such a rush? It's not uncommon for the police to spend months if not years investigating before an arrest is made. Just to give one example of the problems because of their rushing, the police had initially claimed Karen hit John while making a three-point turn. It took them more than a year after the arrest to change their theory of the case because the physical evidence didn't match up.

If the DA didn't feel they had to evidence to successfully convict Karen Read, then they should have never proceeded to trial and in fact it was unethical for them to move forward. Aside from that, pushing for a prosecution when there's insufficient evidence is grossly unfair to John O'Keefe's family, to the jury, to all the witness and, yes, to Karen.

The pickle they are in is solely due to their own incompetence.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I think this is the key takeaway. I believe she could have done it. However, no way could I convict her with how the evidence was not secured, the witnesses clearly lying etc.

I don't think she did a thing to JO. The evidence just doesn't support it that I can see. I mean to say that the evidence doesn't support that she could have done it any more than it supports any other individual who was at the house that night. moo

 

[GoBuckeyes]

I think this is the key takeaway. I believe she could have done it. However, no way could I convict her with how the evidence was not secured, the witnesses clearly lying etc.

I don't think she did a thing to JO. The evidence just doesn't support it that I can see. I mean to say that the evidence doesn't support that she could have done it any more than it supports any other individual who was at the house that night. moo

Is that a thing? People who are found NG turn around and sue the state?

It certainly is if it's deemed wrongful prosecution.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

We don't have access to the material the FBI handed over. According to the defense, the FBI provided a biomechanical expert's report that concluded JO's injuries could not have been caused by being hit by a vehicle. The prosecution has never disputed it's existence. They have the same FBI material.

If this is an outside expert, the defense can use this expert and their report at trial. If it's an in-house FBI employee, it's likely it can't be, as the judge wants no direct discussion of the FBI's involvement in the investigation.

Thus far the prosecution has not even attempted to explain their theory or, more importantly put on an accident reconstructionist who can demonstrate how an SUV caused the victim's injuries. I'm not sure they'll even try. The defense on the other hand, has three biomechanical experts who, using math and medical science, will testify it's not possible that his injuries were caused by a motor vehicle.

I believe the FBI used 3 experts, and they each concluded that her SUV did not hit JO.