MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #9

[ch_13]

Karen Reed is on trial for hitting him while being a drunk driver.
i think its relevant

<modsnip - quoted post, response removed>
I just think we have a fundamental disagreement about the burden of proof.

I don't think that her being on trial automatically makes her more guilty. Nor do I believe that red flags or side eye actions are sufficient evidence of guilt by themselves.

I have real questions about the actual physical evidence, including the wounds on John's body, the condition of Karen's SUV, the actual mechanics of the crash, and the rather questionable discovery of the taillight shards, glass pieces and some of the other evidence. As the trial has progressed these questions have just not been answered to my satisfaction. With only a few days remaining before the commonwealth rests, I have lost hope that they will be.

 

[RANCH]

Think you must mean Nightline interview. That has not been entered into evidence in this case. I am sure you know the difference.

My mistake. In the Nightline interview Karen Read explains why she said "Did I hit him? when talking to a firefighter.

She seems to say that it's possible she may have done something to incapacitate O'Keefe and because he was drunk he passed out and later died of hypothermia.

Very interesting comment. JMO.

 

[k-mac]

All of them that relate to this case. The Dateline interview she did I found to be very interesting.

yeah i did too.
Unprompted or led she divulged her and John were bickering on the drive over there about being welcome or not.
She felt excluded.
He went anyway

Said in an earlier post... If I was Karen I would have had smoke coming out my ears too.
How dare he.

Now.....add alcohol.
Now....add male drunk defiance. (sorry guys...you know it!)

This is real life relationship stuff.

Add alcohol. Loose cannons.

moo

 

[k-mac]

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself "pro-Karen". I just think we have a fundamental disagreement about the burden of proof.

I don't think that her being on trial automatically makes her more guilty. Nor do I believe that red flags or side eye actions are sufficient evidence of guilt by themselves.

I have real questions about the actual physical evidence, including the wounds on John's body, the condition of Karen's SUV, the actual mechanics of the crash, and the rather questionable discovery of the taillight shards, glass pieces and some of the other evidence. As the trial has progressed these questions have just not been answered to my satisfaction. With only a few days remaining before the commonwealth rests, I have lost hope that they will be.

Right
But you haven't mentioned here or acknowledged at all Karen. The person.
Her rational, sobriety, clarity, temper, over the top anxiety, desperation.
She incriminated her self constantly.
Whether the general consensus to believe or not believe the witnesses there are about 7 people all testified of the criminating actions and words from her first hand.

Not limited to but we haven't used it for a few days...
I hit him.

I know.!!..With the DID before and the question mark after it.

They stack. moo

 

[ch_13]

Right
But you haven't mentioned here or acknowledged at all Karen. The person.
Her rational, sobriety, clarity, temper, over the top anxiety, desperation.
She incriminated her self constantly.
Whether the general consensus to believe or not believe the witnesses there are about 7 people all testified of the criminating actions and words from her first hand.

Not limited to but we haven't used it for a few days...
I hit him.

I know.!!..With the DID before and the question mark after it.

They stack. moo

As I've said before, physical evidence is paramount for me. If that doesn't fit then any red flags are immaterial.

But sure, Karen has red flags. Now let's do Brian Higgins.

• Had a fling with Karen and disappointed/angry that she kind of led him on
• Texted her that night while she was with John and didn't get a response
• Texted John that night telling him to come to 34 Fairview
• Was driving a plow that could have easily made that indentation in the back of John's head
• Walked out and no one noticed exactly when he left
• Claimed it took him an hour to drive just over a mile
• Went to the police station that night supposedly to move vehicles
• Butt dials!
• Spent 15 hours at the station the next day even though he had the day off
• Only provided cops with screenshots of his texts with Karen
• Got rid of his phone at a military base and destroyed the SIM
• I'm not going to speculate on his personality or psychology, but I'm sure others can

Do I think he killed John? Probably not. But there's actually nothing that rules him out or makes him a less likely culprit than Karen.

 

[seekingjustice**]

yeah i did too.
Unprompted or led she divulged her and John were bickering on the drive over there about being welcome or not.
She felt excluded.
He went anyway

Said in an earlier post... If I was Karen I would have had smoke coming out my ears too.
How dare he.

Now.....add alcohol.
Now....add male drunk defiance. (sorry guys...you know it!)

This is real life relationship stuff.

Add alcohol. Loose cannons.

moo

I completely agree. We've observed her unpredictable anger, evidenced by her shouting obscenities when she saw JO embrace a friend during their vacation. Her niece testified that KO harbored this resentment, leading to ongoing arguments into the new year if I recall correctly. Additionally, the 53 or 57 calls she made to his phone are deeply troubling plus the hostile text messages that she sent him using derogatory language. Her behavior appears to reflect a state of intoxicated fury imo.

 

[k-mac]

For what it's worth, I don't consider myself "pro-Karen". I just think we have a fundamental disagreement about the burden of proof.

I don't think that her being on trial automatically makes her more guilty. Nor do I believe that red flags or side eye actions are sufficient evidence of guilt by themselves.

I have real questions about the actual physical evidence, including the wounds on John's body, the condition of Karen's SUV, the actual mechanics of the crash, and the rather questionable discovery of the taillight shards, glass pieces and some of the other evidence. As the trial has progressed these questions have just not been answered to my satisfaction. With only a few days remaining before the commonwealth rests, I have lost hope that they will be.

I know I am replying to this post twice lol
But just want to make sure you see it.

I agree with a lot of what you say.
THis trial IMO should be a slam dunk.

the clutzy mishandling is a travesty for everyone.
most importantly JO.

And your reasoning for burden of proof is sound for sure.

But... how many times does a guilty person get away with murder because of technicalities.


That worries me here.
But I am not convinced the crown has lost yet.

no counting chickens until they hatch!

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

If I have no contact with someone that I dropped off who had no car and they never came home I would have to assume they are still at the location where I left them.

Did Karen Read think that O'Keefe got a ride to somewhere other than his home and decided to just do a random search of the town looking for him? That doesn't make much sense to me. JMO.

I think too though after waking up, with alcohol in her system and being groggy, that at first she only remembered being at the bar with him and the others. She didn’t really recall being at Fearview even after JM reminded her.

Yet still it probably wouldn’t make any sense to her that JO wasn’t home by then, especially not during a blizzard. He is more responsible than that, according to his friends and family who testified, and he had a niece at home to think about and care for. He sounded like too dedicated a caretaker to not make it home so he was up and ready for his niece in case she needed something or something went wrong during the storm. It doesn’t seem likely he would want to sleepover and get snowed in. And if he was going to sleep over he most likely would have still contacted her to inform her since somewhere needed to be there for his niece.

KR also called him 53 times that night and she received no call back in return. Usually if people call that many times others assume it is because there is some sort of emergency and considering she was with his niece that may seemed out of character for him to not contact KR back, even if they were in an argument, in case there was a emergency or medical problem.

Also, wasn’t she supposed to be his ride home but if he didn’t call her to pick him up how did he plan to get back in the snowstorm?

He doesn’t answer when his niece calls and JM doesn’t know where he is either. So the worry builds, where is he, how is he and is he safe?

From testimony from JM and KRob the worse case scenarios go through her head like perhaps he tried to walk home because he was still mad or out of spite (in this scenario drinking could have impaired his decision making too) and possibly got hit by snowplow or car by accident? What if he somehow succumbed to the cold? I think that is why she rushes out there to try to drive and look for him. She does to the bar and checks the streets along the way, maybe she tries to go to Fairview but got lost, since she only been there once and was drunk then too, and then to JM to help her and where she notices the tail light.

Her brain is still probably still affected by the alcohol so maybe she cannot think properly which could worsen her anxiety.

 

[MyJoey]

if you did yours first you would see that he went up those stairs and entered the house... and they have experts... and she was seen alone in her vehicle for several minutes as people came and left..therefore any tip she may have given him did not lead to his death.. he was still mobile and lively..

I don't think there is any evidence at all to suggest she hit him..

she may have wanted to, I would have... but she also knew that the host was a person he held in high esteem and he welcomed an opportunity to spend time with him..

Too many shennanigans... by far.. way too many..

Who controlled the narrative and made a point of controlling the narrative?

Can you show me where he went up those stairs in the house?

 

[ch_13]

I know I am replying to this post twice lol
But just want to make sure you see it.

I agree with a lot of what you say.
THis trial IMO should be a slam dunk.

the clutzy mishandling is a travesty for everyone.
most importantly JO.

And your reasoning for burden of proof is sound for sure.

But... how many times does a guilty person get away with murder because of technicalities.

See, here's where we disagree. I don't think that the prosecution's responsibility to meet the burden of proof is a "technicality". I think it is a fundamental part of any criminal trial.

Especially in this case, when the commonwealth seems unable to establish any actual physical evidence that Karen did this. That's a pretty good indication that either she didn't do it, or the police should have investigated much more thoroughly until they had adequate evidence.

That worries me here.
But I am not convinced the crown has lost yet.

I'm pretty sure it hasn't been the "crown" in Massachusetts since 1776.

no counting chickens until they hatch!

Alright, that's enough for me. I'm off to bed.

 

[nightowl1975]

I hope one of the attorneys ask her what time was the query answered.

It seems like the answer to this should clear up any confusion on whether or not JM searched how long to die at 2:27am or if she searched it much later that morning. Have we seen data on when the results to her search popped up?

 

[kittythehare]

Can you show me where he went up those stairs in the house?

https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Kared%20Read%20Defense%20Motion%20-%20Text%20Message.pdf

 

[MyJoey]

No but we already know she said stuff like "You're such a loser John" and my own sister's favorite "I Hate you!"

This made me laugh! Thinking about 53 calls in what 5 hours……I’m dying to hear them! She’s got a quick temper, least seems to.

 

[seekingjustice**]

I am convinced that KR is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. The evidence indicates she was the last person to see him alive, and fragments of a broken tail light matching her vehicle were found near where she dropped him off. Furthermore, the broken tail light contains JO's DNA. A hair matching JO's DNA was discovered on the back of KO's vehicle. KR made statements to multiple individuals about hitting him or potentially hitting him. KR also knew precisely where his body was located even though he was covered in the snow. Additionally, the telematic data evidence provided further incriminating evidence showing she intentionally reversed the vehicle quite a distance with her foot pressing three quarters of the way down on the accelerator. Based on my understanding from todays testimony, her car's reverse camera would have been emitting loud beeping sounds to warn her of an imminent collision. I hope the jury can remain focused on the facts and not be distracted by the side show.

 

[k-mac]

From testimony from JM and KRob the worse case scenarios go through her head like perhaps he tried to walk home because he was still mad or out of spite (in this scenario drinking could have impaired his decision making too)

<modsnip - off topic>

And according to Karen JO wasn't mad...there was no problems.
So why would she think that.
It was all lovey dovey later gater.

JO had a phone. He is an adult man.
He was perfectly capable of using his phone to contact her when and if he wanted to.

Karen was not a pathetic little women in the background.
She was hard on the grog too that night. Party party party.


<modsnip - off topic content>

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Now see, I see that as the defenses fault. They put this out there, knowing it would be disputed so of course the prosecution has to prove the time, other wise it looks like it’s true.

Upon reading the thread again, I realized that the prosecution could skip right over proving the time if they just shared proof that KR killed JO. Then these times wouldn't really matter.

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

well Jen has stated on the stand that Karen did want to roam around looking at 'another womans' house for him with her....

Pretty unhinged and jealous behaviour if true.
I have no reason to disbelieve Jens account.
She was there.

Or just making sure they covered all their bases in case JO was not Fairview and thus would need more places to look. Since JO’s niece and Bella are friends that appear to go to each other’s houses, JO and Bella seem to get along despite being exes and she lives nearby it wouldn’t hurt to check to at least rule out or rule it in and at least know he was safe. IMO this seems more out of concern than jealousy.

She did also call his brother and sister in-law, KRob and JM of course so it does seem she is just locating him and ascertaining his safety is priority.

 

[k-mac]

See, here's where we disagree. I don't think that the prosecution's responsibility to meet the burden of proof is a "technicality". I think it is a fundamental part of any criminal trial.

Especially in this case, when the commonwealth seems unable to establish any actual physical evidence that Karen did this. That's a pretty good indication that either she didn't do it, or the police should have investigated much more thoroughly until they had adequate evidence.



I'm pretty sure it hasn't been the "crown" in Massachusetts since 1776.



Alright, that's enough for me. I'm off to bed.

yes you are technical
using it because I have seen it used on this thread dozens of times for familiarity!
irrelevant word jargain to me!

crown = prosecution.

 

[MyJoey]

https://www.insideedition.com/sites/default/files/inline-files/Kared%20Read%20Defense%20Motion%20-%20Text%20Message.pdf

Thank you, any idea where I can find the prosecutions reply to this? I want to see the GPS time they got there because I’m thinking the apple data was before the GPS even arrived. I’ve been trying to find it……seen it once then lost contact lol.

 

[GoBuckeyes]

Hopefully Proctor doesn’t hurt the Brian Walshe case by merely existing
JMO

But, hey, at least his wife is still proud of him! (eye roll!)