MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #1

[ThinkHard]

The LE did go back to the crime scene, and left with something(s) in a brown bag. So, if it's true that the perp possible sustained an eye injury, he very well may have lost his glasses. Good thinking

I think LE most likely have their guy. They don't usually let the public know they've taken DNA samples, unless (IMO), it's substantial. Maybe whoever they took DNA from, had an eye injury (along with scratches), and for some reason(?) he didn't have his glasses, which led them back to the crime scene??? Just speculation.

I get the impression that they went back to the crime scene (Thursday I believe) and later (Friday, late) announced they submitted some DNA. So I don't think the order of events is quite right for that theory, because I don't think they took DBA and then went back to the crime scene...I think whatever they found at the crime scene, along with tips lead them to the person who's DNA they ran.

 

[ThinkHard]

I may be wrong, but I thought the eye injury was mentioned in one of the press sources re-reporting the Daily Mail's tale of an injured motorcyclist at Wachusett Mt that turned out to be unconnected to this case. I can't find a link anywhere that mentions an eye injury so it is possible the story was taken down after it was found to be unrelated.
Seems like an eye injury described/predicted by police would feature more heavily in the search for a man with "scratches, scrapes and bruises" if this detail has been released?

The DA (Early) mentioned it on an interview with WXLO a local Worcester radio station.

 

[ThinkHard]

Just some observations. Serial killer Anthony Kirkland murdered 5 females in Cincinnati and then set fire to their bodies to conceal evidence of rape. His final victim was 13yo Esme Kenney who went jogging in a park across from her house. Kirkland had been living in a halfway house after being released from prison, but was evicted for fighting with another resident. Kirkland claimed he became enraged when Kenney accidentally bumped into him in the park, although she was apologetic. Her body was also found in a wooded area. Kirkland has been sentenced to death and is in prison where he belongs :jail:. But IMO there's a lot we can learn from observing his MO and motives. There is a WS thread for Kirkland:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Cincinnati-2006-09&highlight=anthony+kirkland

And a thread for another one of his victims, 14yo Casonya 'Sharee' Crawford:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...vondale-9-May-2006&highlight=anthony+kirkland

While there are striking similarities especially between the Kenney murder and the murders of VM and/or KV, I think the motive for the VM murder, at least, may be very different. One thing consistent regarding serial killers/rapists is their crimes are motivated by anger. But, VM's killer seems to have a different motive for burning her body than Kirkland had for burning the bodies of his victims. Only certain areas of VM's body were burned and those are areas that could most easily ID her, so it appears the killer was trying to delay identification of the body. The face is obviously the most identifiable, and then the hands because of the potential of matching fingerprints from the body to a missing person. Footprints, I think, can also be used to ID people. I think it's common any more for hospitals to obtain footprints of newborns. I assume the pattern of those prints remain constant into adulthood?

If VM's killer was counting on a delay in the recovery of her body and an additional delay IDing her, this suggests the killer knows he/she can be traced to VM and so not likely a random murder. IMO. While the similarities between VM and KV are extremely intriguing, I'm not entirely convinced their murders are connected because there appears to be a difference in MO. KV's killer didn't attempt to conceal her identity by setting fire to her body. Even crimes that are not linked can share similarities due to 1.) mere coincidence and 2.) similar MO's used by different perps.

MOO :cow:

Unless the killer had a fairly low IQ I feel like it doesn't really add up that he would try to hide her identity but not conceal her body. He didn't hide the body pretty much at all, and it wasn't all that far in from the side of the road, and it was found on a cart path wide enough for a car....so it would be more likely for someone to come across it then had he even left it off a path.

20 something's just don't go missing in these parts....your talking a town of about 3500 people. So the perp had to know that she would be found quickly because of where he left her, and he would have to know they would immediately be able to figure out who she was. Everyone in the area knew their was a missing runner by 5pm. So when they discover a naked body of a young woman off the very road she was reported missing from or not.....it was fairly obvious who she was as soon as they found her....regardless of face, hands, and feet where burned.

So to me that could point to a couple things.....the guy had a low IQ and didn't really piece that all together ahead of time, the burning wasn't used to conceal the identity, or perhaps he wasn't from around here and despite planning out and getting a lay of the land still didn't really understand the town and culture and thus underestimated the response.

 

[Mountaingazer]

It just occurred to me...could the person be associated with a local fire department? Either full time or as a volunteer?

Have you checked out the scanner rewind that was done in the basement scanner thread?

I think it's very possible the perp worked in emergency response in some capacity, or was related to some one who does.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[ThinkHard]

I believe that this murder is related to Karina Vetrano's murder in NY. Way too many coincidences. They both jogged, it happened roughly at the same time of day, they both looked a like and were more than just pretty...these girls were specifically targeted.

It also looks like the perp (we all know its a he) is escalating quickly. He seems to be conflicted and either thought he would be caught soon, and quickly moved onto the next crime but is unsure of what the police know so he is trying to cover up the second time around.
He also probably had a lot more time to think at the second location.

These girls were both fit and runners. I believe that he used a more simplistic approach to get them close and calm. I am thinking he either knew them directly/indirectly through friends or watched them closely on social media...
Lets assume he knew that she would be there running at some point either from facebook or someone she used to know. What if she ran by him and he simply says "Hey, aren't you that girl from twitter" or "Hey Vanessa, don't I know you from the gym in NYC?"
Even if she doesn't know him, she's going to slow down/stop and approach him until she remembers.

I think we are looking for a white male (possibly Italian), who is big/strong and can easily over power fit women with punches, who is either someone she recognized from back in NYC or someone decent looking/trustworthy enough to stop jogging for (Ted Bundy), aged 27-45 and will have some connection to these two either directly through friends, the gym or indirectly through social media. Regarding the inconsistencies of the first and second murder, I think that he is relatively new at killing but due to the violent nature of knocking someones teeth out and then burning the second body, I think we are looking for someone with an extensive violent past via either first fights, domestic violence, assault, rape, etc.

This case is very sad and I feel awful for everyone except the guy who did this. This also reminds me a lot of the Chelsea King murder which also was a jogger that happened in my home town where I grew up. Chelsea's killer also target girls that reminded him of his first love who left him.

If Vanessa was running on her road in rural Princeton a town with less then 4k people and someone from a gym in NYC just happened to be on the side of the road....I don't think she would just say "oh hey" it would be super creepy to her that he would be there. It's not like running into someone from NYC if your in Boston or even Worcester.

To drive from NYC to Princeton take about 3/ 31/2 hours depending on traffic and which way you go. The most direct rt being: 95, to 15 to 91 to 84, and then you can get off 84 in Sturbridge and drive back roads (31) through a few towns including Spencer, Paxton, Holden, into Princeton. But Vanessa took a bus home which would have hooked up with 90 from 84 To go Ito Worcester.

The bus station in Worcester would still be a half hour from Princeton....you can take 290-190 and then back roads or you can just take backroads through Holden or West Boylston. But you need a car either way because their isn't much public transports on and non to Princeton.

The point is, unless someone had been stocking her for a while and knew how to get to where she lived ahead of time, following her home would be a real challenge.

Then when they get there, there is also very limited lodging in Princeton, and definetly non where she was, so I'm not sure how he would have "kept an eye on her".

 

[ThinkHard]

Have you checked out the scanner rewind that was done in the basement scanner thread?

I think it's very possible the perp worked in emergency response in some capacity, or was related to some one who does.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

No! But this thought popped into my head the other day and hasn't left....which is creepy because I know a lot of the emergency responders in the area. .... Also those cart paths......are often called "fire roads" .

Btw do you have a link to downstairs? I've been before but I forget how to get there.

 

[Lawdini01234]

Have you checked out the scanner rewind that was done in the basement scanner thread?

I think it's very possible the perp worked in emergency response in some capacity, or was related to some one who does.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Interesting! Can you link to the basement thread, I can never find it lol

 

[Mountaingazer]

No! But this thought popped into my head the other day and hasn't left....which is creepy because I know a lot of the emergency responders in the area. .... Also those cart paths......are often called "fire roads" .

Btw do you have a link to downstairs? I've been before but I forget how to get there.

I am using the Tapatalk app so I can't post a link to downstairs, but if you go to the private forums section, then parking lot, then scanner chatter, it's in the breaking news scanner thread near the end.

What happens in the scanner thread stays in the scanner thread, we can't discuss it here, but I think you'll find it interesting.

No! But this thought popped into my head the other day and hasn't left....which is creepy because I know a lot of the emergency responders in the area. .... Also those cart paths......are often called "fire roads" .

Btw do you have a link to downstairs? I've been before but I forget how to get there.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[sta7ic]

If Vanessa was running on her road in rural Princeton a town with less then 4k people and someone from a gym in NYC just happened to be on the side of the road....I don't think she would just say "oh hey" it would be super creepy to her that he would be there. It's not like running into someone from NYC if your in Boston or even Worcester.

To drive from NYC to Princeton take about 3/ 31/2 hours depending on traffic and which way you go. The most direct rt being: 95, to 15 to 91 to 84, and then you can get off 84 in Sturbridge and drive back roads (31) through a few towns including Spencer, Paxton, Holden, into Princeton. But Vanessa took a bus home which would have hooked up with 90 from 84 To go Ito Worcester.

The bus station in Worcester would still be a half hour from Princeton....you can take 290-190 and then back roads or you can just take backroads through Holden or West Boylston. But you need a car either way because their isn't much public transports on and non to Princeton.

The point is, unless someone had been stocking her for a while and knew how to get to where she lived ahead of time, following her home would be a real challenge.

Then when they get there, there is also very limited lodging in Princeton, and definetly non where she was, so I'm not sure how he would have "kept an eye on her".

You must have my post confused with one you saw earlier. No where in my post do I mention her being followed from NY, the bus or keeping an eye on her.<modsnip> I'm also not assuming he lives in NYC either (this is why I just posted a pic of a 'suspicious local' at the vigil. <modsnip> .\ Btw, since when are possible serial killers NOT "*Super Creepy*" as you put it? If you're planning on killing someone, I don't think being worried about what people think of you is going to cross your mind. <modsnip>

 

[ThinkHard]

I am using the Tapatalk app so I can't post a link to downstairs, but if you go to the private forums section, then parking lot, then scanner chatter, it's in the breaking news scanner thread near the end.

What happens in the scanner thread stays in the scanner thread, we can't discuss it here, but I think you'll find it interesting.



Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

I see the breaking news scanner 7 but I only see info about Karina in it. Is there another scanner thread where there is info about VM?

 

[Lawdini01234]

I see the breaking news scanner 7 but I only see info about Karina in it. Is there another scanner thread where there is info about VM?

Same here. Just read the rules on the scanner thread and the person should be able to post the link to it here. Just no discussion about it is to be had here AT ALL.

 

[ThinkHard]

You must have my post confused with one you saw earlier. No where in my post do I mention her being followed from NY, the bus or keeping an eye on her.<modsnip> I'm also not assuming he lives in NYC either (this is why I just posted a pic of a 'suspicious local' at the vigil. <modsnip> Btw, since when are possible serial killers NOT "*Super Creepy*" as you put it? If you're planning on killing someone, I don't think being worried about what people think of you is going to cross your mind.<modsnip>

Nope I wasn't confused at all. I was very specifically posting in response to the specific things you wrote. You claim you think they are related and I was expalining why giving the distance and the circumstances made this far less likely. Trying to track someone to Princeton would add numerous complications. I'm curious how in your logic you propose he got around all of those?

How exactly in your head do you see him following her from
NYC?

I'm just having trouble following the the logic you proposed.

 

[Tempura]

Have you checked out the scanner rewind that was done in the basement scanner thread?

I think it's very possible the perp worked in emergency response in some capacity, or was related to some one who does.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

Do you have a link for this?

 

[sta7ic]

Nope I wasn't confused at all. I was very specifically posting in response to the specific things you wrote. You claim you think they are related and I was expalining why giving the distance and the circumstances made this far less likely. Trying to track someone to Princeton would add numerous complications. I'm curious how in your logic you propose he got around all of those?

How exactly in your head do you see him following her from
NYC?

I'm just having trouble following the the logic you proposed.

I think its best to focus on whats important...Stick to the profile. But for exercise, I'll give in... People are pretty manipulative. I can think of a number of ways. He's befriended her at the gym but only on a first name basis...he asked when she'll back back to work out, she mentions shes going to see her parents up in Princeton. Maybe he follows her on twitter/facebook or instagram and put two and two together. Maybe he already lives in Princeton and he found out through a friend or social media that she was coming home or he just remember that she comes back in early August. These variables will work themselves out eventually but in my opinion, its important to focus on the profile and any info she gave out to friends, social media accounts...where she worked out, etc. I think we will soon start seeing the pieces come together. Its also not very hard to borrow someones phone and dial a number which gives you complete access to their phone and location either. I highly doubt it here but its something to consider as plenty of monitoring apps/hacks out there to do just that. If you want to see something really scary...just google/youtube CCSS7 or SS7 phone hack but again, I really wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet with so many angles to lead with.

Cheers,
- sta7ic

 

[Tempura]

Nope I wasn't confused at all. I was very specifically posting in response to the specific things you wrote. You claim you think they are related and I was expalining why giving the distance and the circumstances made this far less likely. Trying to track someone to Princeton would add numerous complications. I'm curious how in your logic you propose he got around all of those?

How exactly in your head do you see him following her from
NYC?

I'm just having trouble following the the logic you proposed.

I don't really believe he's someone who followed her from NYC, but I do think it wouldn't be too difficult to do so. He could find out where she lives and runs from looking at her MapMyRun app. If he knows she's an avid runner and knows when she's out of town (NYC) visiting her family, he would know when she'd be in Princeton and know she's most likely to run in the afternoon as that was her usual pattern before. I don't think he'd need to actually follow her and the bus. He could stay at a motel in a neighboring town for the night, or even just camp out in the woods. He could have even hidden his car back on the cart path during that whole time. As secluded as Princeton is, I don't think that'd be enough to discourage him from coming out here and that may even be more desirable for him.

I, unfortunately, believe it's a local, however.

 

[Coldpizza]

Interesting! Can you link to the basement thread, I can never find it lol

Scanner Chatter

 

[Tempura]

I think its best to focus on whats important...Stick to the profile. But for exercise, I'll give in... People are pretty manipulative. I can think of a number of ways. He's befriended her at the gym but only on a first name basis...he asked when she'll back back to work out, she mentions shes going to see her parents up in Princeton. Maybe he follows her on twitter/facebook or instagram and put two and two together. Maybe he already lives in Princeton and he found out through a friend or social media that she was coming home or he just remember that she comes back in early August. These variables will work themselves out eventually but in my opinion, its important to focus on the profile and any info she gave out to friends, social media accounts...where she worked out, etc. I think we will soon start seeing the pieces come together. Its also not very hard to borrow someones phone and dial a number which gives you complete access to their phone and location either. I highly doubt it here but its something to consider as plenty of monitoring apps/hacks out there to do just that. If you want to see something really scary...just google/youtube CCSS7 or SS7 phone hack but again, I really wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet with so many angles to lead with.

Cheers,
- sta7ic

Yep. In fact, she visited very frequently, every other weekend. She had her entire Princeton running route saved on her MapMyRun account and anyone can look that up by name. Very easy to see where her family lives and where she runs. Even what times. I don't think stalking her would have been difficult or would even take a certain level of manipulation.

 

[ThinkHard]

I think its best to focus on whats important...Stick to the profile. But for exercise, I'll give in... People are pretty manipulative. I can think of a number of ways. He's befriended her at the gym but only on a first name basis...he asked when she'll back back to work out, she mentions shes going to see her parents up in Princeton. Maybe he follows her on twitter/facebook or instagram and put two and two together. Maybe he already lives in Princeton and he found out through a friend or social media that she was coming home or he just remember that she comes back in early August. These variables will work themselves out eventually but in my opinion, its important to focus on the profile and any info she gave out to friends, social media accounts...where she worked out, etc. I think we will soon start seeing the pieces come together. Its also not very hard to borrow someones phone and dial a number which gives you complete access to their phone and location either. I highly doubt it here but its something to consider as plenty of monitoring apps/hacks out there to do just that. If you want to see something really scary...just google/youtube CCSS7 or SS7 phone hack but again, I really wouldn't jump to that conclusion yet with so many angles to lead with.

Cheers,
- sta7ic

I agree it's good to stick to what's important. But if your proposing two murders three hours driving distance apart are related to each other, then in my head I think discussing the logistics of how they would have actually gotten btw the two places to be pretty darn important.

If he met her at the gym and found out she was going to Pronceton and mapped his way there, how would he actually find out where in Princeton she would actually be? Or know she'd be running then? Or known where that cart path was?

If it's the same killer and he's from Princeton how would you explain him being in Howard Beach NYC to kill Karina?

I agree the profile is important but So are the logistics and the circumstances.

 

[ThinkHard]

Scanner Chatter

I can find that but I can't find the thread where there is any discussion of Vanessa, as another poster had mentioned.

 

[sta7ic]

I agree it's good to stick to what's important. But if your proposing two murders three hours driving distance apart are related to each other, then in my head I think discussing the logistics of how they would have actually gotten btw the two places to be pretty darn important.

If he met her at the gym and found out she was going to Pronceton and mapped his way there, how would he actually find out where in Princeton she would actually be? Or know she'd be running then? Or known where that cart path was?

If it's the same killer and he's from Princeton how would you explain him being in Howard Beach NYC to kill Karina?

I agree the profile is important but So are the logistics and the circumstances.

Tempura already solved this problem for you. At minimal, Vanessa uploaded all her runs to the public cloud which anyone could view. What if that were the same for Karina? What if this perp, suggested the app to both of the girls? Creeeeepppppyyyyyy....