MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[Rocky1]

This last paragraph is how I have felt from the beginning. Or someone from a close surrounding town that knows the area like the back of his hand.
And I want to say that he was on foot and was able to get away quickly as he knew where he was and where he was going which he would need neither a vehicle or a bike. Slither away like a snake.

The very first thing that came to my mind was that he was on foot too, but then I was trying to figure out his escape route. I also thought that if it was someone that lived real close that LE would have canvased that area.
What would you say his escape route was?

 

[Rocky1]

While I can certainly understand why many are drawing the “local” suspect conclusion, I want to throw out another scenario. Looking at the overhead images of the area, I was surprised to see the multi-unit structure near the corner of Boylston Rd and Rt 31 – it is approx 1/4 mile from the cemetery and definitely stands out among the single family homes.

Apparently these buildings comprise a small HUD housing project. For those who are not aware, these projects house eligible residents from anywhere, not just the local area. And while this complex is for the elderly, I can tell you definitively that disabled younger folks are often housed in these complexes, too. And when I say disabled, that could mean unable to work because of a drug or alcohol addiction.

While I am not suggesting that any resident had anything to do with this, I think the presence of this complex opens the neighborhood to additional folks who may not otherwise have reason to be there. I am thinking CNA’s, children, grandchildren, handymen, cleaning people, or friends from the resident’s previous community which may have been a shelter, jail or rehab facility.

I could see a care-giver or family member visiting the complex each Sunday to see Grandma. Visitor is accompanied by her good-for-nothing boyfriend who normally sits out in the car and smokes. It is a hot summer, his ac doesn’t work so he smokes outside. Other residents have complained (or smoking is banned on property?) so he walks out to the road each Sunday to smoke. VM passes him around the same time a couple of times each month. He figures out her schedule and route and for reasons I can’t even contemplate, decides to kill her. Perhaps he even drove his SUV to the cartpath earlier in the afternoon to scope it out.

Or maybe recovering drug addict resident allows his buddies from the county jail to crash in his apartment. No smoking allowed in apartment so he goes out to the road and same scenario occurs.

I know this is all very hypothetical, but I think it lays out the possibility of a suspect who is familiar with the area from regular visits, but doesn’t live there.

I could be wrong, but, I don't think there is any HUD housing in Princeton.
Is the "multi unit" structure yellow?

 

[The Farm]

While I can certainly understand why many are drawing the “local” suspect conclusion, I want to throw out another scenario. Looking at the overhead images of the area, I was surprised to see the multi-unit structure near the corner of Boylston Rd and Rt 31 – it is approx 1/4 mile from the cemetery and definitely stands out among the single family homes.

Apparently these buildings comprise a small HUD housing project. For those who are not aware, these projects house eligible residents from anywhere, not just the local area. And while this complex is for the elderly, I can tell you definitively that disabled younger folks are often housed in these complexes, too. And when I say disabled, that could mean unable to work because of a drug or alcohol addiction.

While I am not suggesting that any resident had anything to do with this, I think the presence of this complex opens the neighborhood to additional folks who may not otherwise have reason to be there. I am thinking CNA’s, children, grandchildren, handymen, cleaning people, or friends from the resident’s previous community which may have been a shelter, jail or rehab facility.

I could see a care-giver or family member visiting the complex each Sunday to see Grandma. Visitor is accompanied by her good-for-nothing boyfriend who normally sits out in the car and smokes. It is a hot summer, his ac doesn’t work so he smokes outside. Other residents have complained (or smoking is banned on property?) so he walks out to the road each Sunday to smoke. VM passes him around the same time a couple of times each month. He figures out her schedule and route and for reasons I can’t even contemplate, decides to kill her. Perhaps he even drove his SUV to the cartpath earlier in the afternoon to scope it out.

Or maybe recovering drug addict resident allows his buddies from the county jail to crash in his apartment. No smoking allowed in apartment so he goes out to the road and same scenario occurs.

I know this is all very hypothetical, but I think it lays out the possibility of a suspect who is familiar with the area from regular visits, but doesn’t live there.

This is also quite possible and I did not know about the HUD complex. I think we can all say our opinions here are hypothetical and that many scenarios could have happened or not at all.
I am only comparing my small town with the goings on, outsiders that pass through and how a brutal crime like this could happen quickly.
I just keep on coming up with it is someone that knows the area well. He knew both how to get away undetected quickly and where to go.
Geeezzz people get lost in my town and complained for years about no street signs but now that is all changing with big overpriced houses being built. With those big overpriced houses come city people that want amenities and street signs and paved roads are amongst what is considered progress.
Anywayyyy if it was a stranger that did this with no ties to the area at all I would be surprised but then again I do believe anything is possible.
We can only lean towards the familiar.

 

[The Farm]

The very first thing that came to my mind was that he was on foot too, but then I was trying to figure out his escape route. I also thought that if it was someone that lived real close that LE would have canvased that area.
What would you say his escape route was?

I have no idea really what his escape route might have been as pictures of the area are not like actually being IN the area.
Even if he lived very close, remember, if he had scratches and such from VM putting up a fight I do believe he was able to hide for a while.
Go off on a vacation up north which is quite common. Or anywhere for that matter.Not all rapist and murderers are scary looking, this could be someone of prominence and would never be suspected in a million years.

 

[Rocky1]

I have no idea really what his escape route might have been as pictures of the area are not like actually being IN the area.
Even if he lived very close, remember, if he had scratches and such from VM putting up a fight I do believe he was able to hide for a while.
Go off on a vacation up north which is quite common. Or anywhere for that matter.Not all rapist and murderers are scary looking, this could be someone of prominence and would never be suspected in a million years.

Ok, the reason I asked is because either he had to cut through someones yard, or he had to walk the street, and as you say he would have had cuts and scratches on his face. I would think that someone driving by may have not remembered someone walking down BSR, or Rt. 31, however, I would think that if someone saw a person with scratches on their face, that would have stuck out, and they would have remembered.
You're right, he did have 4 or 5 hours to hide, but I see someone jacked up in a panic, who got away as fast as he could.
I am not disagreeing with you at all, and you may very well be right. I am just trying to think it through.

 

[Rocky1]

One other thing that got me thinking that he wasn't on foot is, we know LE used tracking/ trailing dogs to find VM.
If they used a trailing dog, that means they had an article of her clothing used to trail her.
Being that they were on the scene so fast, they could/should have used separate tracking dogs that track anyones footprint without using any scent from that person.
If the perp made his way through the woods, the dog would have tracked that. If the perp walked down the road, the dog may have lost the scent, because tracking dogs rely on foliage that is stepped on, but it would have told them where he exited the woods.

 

[searunner]

I read this article

https://medium.com/@emmalindsay/men-dump-their-anger-into-women-d5b641fa37bc#.afx4o66mr

And it made me start thinking about a psychological profile in this case. Just to throw out this as a possibility...could it be someone who somehow felt "left behind" i.e. Intimidated by her succes...intimidated by successful women in general but took it personal with her? Not even in a romantic way but perhaps a friend that stayed local or never went away to college and felt like she had become "too good"....not that she treated them this way. Simply suggestion it could have been their perception.

Thanks for posting that article. I love when I come across anything that I find thought-provoking -- yeah, that makes me "think hard" -- and well expressed. I found it very insightful -- and spot-on. The entire "women are expected to manage men's emotions" is so true -- in general, of course, there are always exceptions. It's just another unpaid job that frees men up to work more -- and hence, earn more money -- and/or have more free time. What I try to steer clear of is the all-too common dynamic of when those women who take on handling the emotions of men in their lives then dump it (or attempt to) on other women. I'm not talking just about their close friends or family either.

More to say about that article, but moving on to Vanessa... (Though, of course, societal attitudes/dynamics and Vanessa being brutally murdered are intimately connected, but this isn't the forum...)

Certainly, what little information we know suggests a rage that I don't even like to contemplate. While I could be wrong, I tend to think that his rage is more toward women in general and less directed at Vanessa. I don't tend to think she was seeing a married man, for instance, as it's hard to imagine that there would not be some type of trail. I also don't think he's a single man that she was currently romantically involved with. I'd not rule out past romantic involvement, but I don't think that's likely either. Someone interested in her, but not having his feeling reciprocated is a good possibility, IMO, but so is someone that didn't know her or just knew "of her."

There are exception to everything, but in general, I think men who have this degree of rage against women lack or lacked in the past one or two things: 1. financial/career success; 2. romantic success with women. As for the exceptions (and many of these men), then I'd venture that their childhood backgrounds are telltale.

So, yes, ThinkHard, I do think that inner rage at his lack of contentment with his life was likely a big factor here. And, yes, this very well could be someone who was left behind -- never moved out of the area to go to college, for instance. But, again, I don't tend to think there was a strong connection between him and Vanessa. Just a feeling.

 

[DeDee]

Great post, searunner.


Are there more than two options?

1. VMs murder was due to a random chance of opportunity.
2. VMs murder was a targeted killing either from an unsub during an ambush or by laying in wait.

a) Killer may have known who VM was but VM did not necessarily know her killer.
b) Killer knew VM and felt compelled by reasons unknown to us, att, to kill and burn her.
c) Killer may have no reason to murder the victim other than for the sheer euphoria experienced.

Killer was prepared to unclothe VM, kill her, burn parts of her body then, left behind a single shoe of VMs.

VM fought courageously for her life by leaving signs of a struggle upon her killer.

I trust LEO when they state publicly that they need help in locating a dark SUV seen parked on BSR.

Herein lies the problem. The word dark is subjective and vague. If the SUV were black, the eye witness would state that it was black. Similarly, a dark red SUV would be stated as being a dark red SUV. Just having trouble with an eyewitness not knowing the color since it was daylight on a summer's day.

 

[Sheila Terranova]

Maybe they forgot? At my age ,that is possible. You remember things vaguely. Like " I know it was dark,but I can't remember the color."

 

[Kickoff61]

That's a great find and it certainly seems within the realm of possibilities that someone connected to that HUD housing is involved.

While I have long thought that there's a high probability that a localish ("ish" being key) man was involved, I don't tend to think that he actually lives in Princeton. Granted, killing someone in broad daylight, even in a fairly remote area, shouts either extremely arrogant or not very bright, but I just don't tend to think someone who lives in this town with such a small population would commit this crime in his own backyard, so to speak. That's beyond insanely high risk, as even the most arrogant or stupid person would have to know that the police would easily be able to comb through the males in town. (Though, I acknowledge I'm talking about using an iota of reasoning and self-control...and some folks lack even an iota of one or both abilities.) I lean more toward someone who is very familiar with the area, but lives in an adjacent town. He could be quite familiar with Princeton because he used to live there, has friends/family in the area, runs or bikes in the area, or works (contractor) in the area.

And I can add your potential scenario here -- he could be very familiar with the area because of working at or visiting the HUD housing.

There is possible indication the person is not stupid, with the facts this case is not solved yet and at this point remain so many scenarios and speculated ways of figuring this out.

 

[Kickoff61]

This is also quite possible and I did not know about the HUD complex. I think we can all say our opinions here are hypothetical and that many scenarios could have happened or not at all.
I am only comparing my small town with the goings on, outsiders that pass through and how a brutal crime like this could happen quickly.
I just keep on coming up with it is someone that knows the area well. He knew both how to get away undetected quickly and where to go.
Geeezzz people get lost in my town and complained for years about no street signs but now that is all changing with big overpriced houses being built. With those big overpriced houses come city people that want amenities and street signs and paved roads are amongst what is considered progress.
Anywayyyy if it was a stranger that did this with no ties to the area at all I would be surprised but then again I do believe anything is possible.
We can only lean towards the familiar.

I believe they reported the person is familiar with the area she was found. I think you are right about someone knowing the area well. Also knowing that path would not be busy with people walking it during a summer afternoon.

 

[Kickoff61]

I have no idea really what his escape route might have been as pictures of the area are not like actually being IN the area.
Even if he lived very close, remember, if he had scratches and such from VM putting up a fight I do believe he was able to hide for a while.
Go off on a vacation up north which is quite common. Or anywhere for that matter.Not all rapist and murderers are scary looking, this could be someone of prominence and would never be suspected in a million years.

The way this case is going, it appears you may be right, someone who would never be suspected.

 

[The Farm]

One other thing that got me thinking that he wasn't on foot is, we know LE used tracking/ trailing dogs to find VM.
If they used a trailing dog, that means they had an article of her clothing used to trail her.
Being that they were on the scene so fast, they could/should have used separate tracking dogs that track anyones footprint without using any scent from that person.
If the perp made his way through the woods, the dog would have tracked that. If the perp walked down the road, the dog may have lost the scent, because tracking dogs rely on foliage that is stepped on, but it would have told them where he exited the woods.

That we do not know what kind of particular tracking was done and people walk everywhere all the time. I have walked my dogs out in the woods where I would not thinkk I would see a soul and there I come upon traces of people such as fresh trash etc. I even came upon a large plastic bag one time with a terrible smell and was ready to run home and call 911 (no cell phones in those days) when what do I see but a dogs leg sticking out. I swear I still have not got over it and that was years ago.
So we can only surmise with what LE has released which I am sure is not everything.

 

[The Farm]

I believe they reported the person is familiar with the area she was found. I think you are right about someone knowing the area well. Also knowing that path would not be busy with people walking it during a summer afternoon.

It was hot and humid that day if I remember correctly. You sweat, the bugs are all over you and many woods walkers take a break on those kinds of days.
I think the timing was in his favor for whatever reason.

 

[ThinkHard]

I could be wrong, but, I don't think there is any HUD housing in Princeton.
Is the "multi unit" structure yellow?

I wasn't sure about that either. There is a halfway house further north on Mnt Rd. I wasn't aware of any HUD housing in town though.

Is there a way to confirm this one way or another? Any town residents know?

 

[ThinkHard]

One other thing that got me thinking that he wasn't on foot is, we know LE used tracking/ trailing dogs to find VM.
If they used a trailing dog, that means they had an article of her clothing used to trail her.
Being that they were on the scene so fast, they could/should have used separate tracking dogs that track anyones footprint without using any scent from that person.
If the perp made his way through the woods, the dog would have tracked that. If the perp walked down the road, the dog may have lost the scent, because tracking dogs rely on foliage that is stepped on, but it would have told them where he exited the woods.

You got me thinking....perhaps there were multiple reports of a dark SUV nearby where her body was found that coincided with where the tracking dogs trail ended? Meaning they feel strongly THAT vehicle is involved because of a trail btw that spot and her body picked up by dogs. .... just a thought!!?

 

[ThinkHard]

Great post, searunner.


Are there more than two options?

1. VMs murder was due to a random chance of opportunity.
2. VMs murder was a targeted killing either from an unsub during an ambush or by laying in wait.

a) Killer may have known who VM was but VM did not necessarily know her killer.
b) Killer knew VM and felt compelled by reasons unknown to us, att, to kill and burn her.
c) Killer may have no reason to murder the victim other than for the sheer euphoria experienced.

Killer was prepared to unclothe VM, kill her, burn parts of her body then, left behind a single shoe of VMs.

VM fought courageously for her life by leaving signs of a struggle upon her killer.

I trust LEO when they state publicly that they need help in locating a dark SUV seen parked on BSR.

Herein lies the problem. The word dark is subjective and vague. If the SUV were black, the eye witness would state that it was black. Similarly, a dark red SUV would be stated as being a dark red SUV. Just having trouble with an eyewitness not knowing the color since it was daylight on a summer's day.

I think it's also possible someone planned to meet with her or called her when she was out (remember just because we don't know doesn't mean it doesn't exist), but didn't plan to kill her and something went terribly wrong....at least to
Me this is still as possibility I see as well.

 

[ThinkHard]

It was hot and humid that day if I remember correctly. You sweat, the bugs are all over you and many woods walkers take a break on those kinds of days.
I think the timing was in his favor for whatever reason.

You wouldn't have a woods walker in those woods though, as it's all private property. So if they were there it's likely they lived there. And I'd think it would be too early at just a half mile for her to have taken a break.

 

[Black Labs]

Are you talking about the building closer toward the center of town? That is Wachusett House and primarily home to many elderly. It is HUD but really just a lot of elderly. http://affordablehousingonline.com/...s/Princeton/Wachusett-House-Corporation/4416/
Although it Interesting fact is that it was build on the property of a really old cool hotel that burned down in 1910, here's one of many photos from the fire https://www.digitalcommonwealth.org/search/commonwealth:fb494j99f
I used to be friends with a kid whose property abutted where this is and in the woods there is still a ton of remnants of the fire. We used to collect large fragments of the dining china. Anyway, sorry to digress!

That's a great find and it certainly seems within the realm of possibilities that someone connected to that HUD housing is involved.

While I have long thought that there's a high probability that a localish ("ish" being key) man was involved, I don't tend to think that he actually lives in Princeton. Granted, killing someone in broad daylight, even in a fairly remote area, shouts either extremely arrogant or not very bright, but I just don't tend to think someone who lives in this town with such a small population would commit this crime in his own backyard, so to speak. That's beyond insanely high risk, as even the most arrogant or stupid person would have to know that the police would easily be able to comb through the males in town. (Though, I acknowledge I'm talking about using an iota of reasoning and self-control...and some folks lack even an iota of one or both abilities.) I lean more toward someone who is very familiar with the area, but lives in an adjacent town. He could be quite familiar with Princeton because he used to live there, has friends/family in the area, runs or bikes in the area, or works (contractor) in the area.

And I can add your potential scenario here -- he could be very familiar with the area because of working at or visiting the HUD housing.

 

[Black Labs]

To be honest, I can see both scenarios. I would say that Princeton is an extremely close knit community and most everyone knows everyone. So if it is a local, then others definitely know and are protecting him and I don't see a local taking that risk. Just my two cents though. I would say again though that if it is a local, picking that road in particular to do something so horrible is one of the last roads you would ever pick if you wanted to get away with it. That cart path is not far off the road and any passing cyclist or other runner would have noticed anything odd going on in the woods.