MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #5

[Steleheart]

If that is the case it certainly would explain why his vehicle may have been there longer then planned. Perhaps he wanted to take her somewhere and torture her
but as you have said when she was cornered and forced to flee into the woods, when he caught up with her he ended up strangling her...in which case he no longer had reason to bring the body with him...maybe he was more into torturing live victims...this might also explain why he might have a blow torch (because he planned on torturing her)....so he was forced to leave the body there and use what he had on hand to cover his tracks and get out quick.

Maybe he was pulled over pretending to be lost or broken down or getting something from his car...if he was planning to abduct her, perhaps he covered his plates...and perhaps this was noted on obvservations of a dark SUV making it particularly suspicious.

Ps every time someone writes torch instead of blow torch, I briefly think you are British and are referring to a flashlight. And for a second I can't figure out why you are talking about a flashlight. (Sorry for the side note)

BTW wanted to add...if there was a struggle I am assuming LE could tell from ground markings how a struggle went down...or they could find an expert to do so. However I do know one things that did effect this investigation was the rain that came down hairs and heavy two days later. But I was thinking ground marking would indicate a fight in addition to perhaps Skin cells under her nails or in her mouth.

You know I wondered if he was local and he noticed when she visited now and again. People like that can get obsessed. I can see a situation where he knows she is in town and takes a couple trips down BSR. Then on one of those trips he sees her - " There she is". Turns around and parks seemingly trying to check out his vehicle and waits for her to pass..+ ( not that she knew who he was )

An abduction gone wrong is still my opinion.

 

[Evey]

None of what I said was speaking for you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I don't see who would have known that she was there that day and running at that time. To me based on her running habits the time of her run was very likely something that she decided on after waking up that day. So who could have known that? you said you meant someone who would know that she would be running on that specific day, and targeted her at that specific time and location. But who would know that?

On a run during similar hot weather conditions on August 22, 2015, she ran at 9:30 in the morning ( we runners do this often to avoid the heat of the day during this time of year)

How long in advance do you think she had this run time planned? This is a key issue for me and it seems to be a sticking point. Running in the summer is something I am very familiar with. In looking at about 20 of her runs, including about a half dozen in Princeton, there is nothing that suggests to me that her run was at a set time that day. I know the media stated generally that she had a habit of running before returning to New York City, But that doesn't immediately before.




Who would know about a run that specific afternoon. Surely there was no explicit mention of it in text messages- or if there was, then that person had been ruled out by now. We are 4 months in. If it was someone very close to her they would have keyed in on this person and they wouldn't be asking about a dark SUV. JMO.

This could be a key component of the case: I would love some evidence that someone would know that she was running at that specific time. To me that knowledge wouldn't be available until she made that decision, that day.

For people who could know, first off if she did go to the store before and let's say had on jogging gear or told the clerk she was about to and they got it chat about it or she had a routine of going there before then an employee could know and magically take a quick break. Other option is a neighbor who's watched her for awhile and finally acted on his desires because of something she did or wore(which is why I think she didn't get far and was grabbed and killed in a house) other option I debated is a friendzoned close friend. That sounds weird(ironic my phone just corrected a word to the name of one of my friendzoned bestfriends) but as someone who has a lot of male friends and mostly close male friends I can also say almost of them tried dating me and I either made it clear they were just my friend or purposely said stuff about whoever I was seeeing so they'd get the point. Now while none of mine would kill me I can picture some not mentally stable close male friend who's loved her all her life and watched her use him or turn him down or just ignore his obvious affections and then one day he snaps. He would know she came to town every weekend and know when she was going for a jog because likely she'd mention it or he somehow would find a way to know she was(possibly via Snapchat) and she would approach him and walk up to him without a struggle most likely. Could even be someone who isn't as close with her but close enough to know these things and someone she's turned down hence them saying she was assaulted at first. With someone as busy as she has been made to sound as well as his career driven they make her out to be I somehow doubt she would have time for any serious bf either. Maybe some secret fling on weekends but no serious bf. Or then there's the option that I would pick for if I ended up like her, and that some person she was nice to on social media who took it as something it wasn't and became obsessed and snapped. I say this because I use to actually reply to my messages on social media and aside from creepy dick related gross things I also would get some super creepy dudes offering to buy me things or who I was nice to once then stopped replying because whatever they said was creepy and then the dudes will sit and keep sending me messages. I even had a stranger write on a photo of me from a shoot that he hopes I'm raped and murdered once. As well as got weird ones from what seemed like satanist or people who won't take no for an answer and are pushy and keep asking me out despite saying no. So if I was to get killed I would know my friends and family would think it was a "deranged fan" as my ex calls them. And she was pretty and likely on a lot of social media since she worked at google so she could have turned a local down online and he became stalking(maybe one who works at the store) and considering I get called a lot of awful things just for not being interested in someone or not replying until they've gotten rude because I am not replying and tell them how I get many messages a day from dudes asking the same questions and don't like messages or answering them and that it isn't my job to sit and reply to random guys online and then they usually snap so she could have ignored some fans messages too many times. But I lean toward friend or someone she didn't suspect because if she was creeped out by some dude she likely would tell her friends or maybe go the route I do and post it for many many people to see so no girls on my list let the dude add them. Or share their dick pic and creepy gross messages in my stream and show them a screenshot of the post before blocking them to humiliate them so they learn their lesson. But again friends would know about that and I think this was someone she never suspected until it was too late.

 

[Evey]

Yes this is totally a possibility. I think the general feeling is that if someone local to Princeton why her And why now? It's just such a highly unusual place for a random crime like that to occur

So, if VM did buy something at the store that day wonder how she paid ? Did she have any cash on her ? A debit card ? Did her killer rob her ?

Taking her phone is also interesting. Why did he do that ? A clumsy, attempt to hide some info on her phone , or did he just want the phone ?

My guess is there's something on it that could implicate him like maybe she took a photo. Also I believe by went on a run before returning to New York they mean she likes to run the day before she goes back or the day of beforehand and if someone only sees her run that one day a week then I think isn't hard to plot to go do this in said day. Especially if watching her or watching for her.

 

[compassionate]

ForensicMass, I do find your use of scientific methodology helpful. Joshua M good to hear from you. ALL posters, appreciate your thoughts. I do not like the turbulence that sometimes comes up in all of these, now 5, threads, but all in all I think there is a lot of good thinking and discussion, and I want to read everyone's posts. Our common bond is caring about this horrible murder.

 

[Evey]

Yes this is totally a possibility. I think the general feeling is that if someone local to Princeton why her And why now? It's just such a highly unusual place for a random crime like that to occur

Possible, but too many things make me lean away from that thought. If they are connected. Why put all the effort into tracking her 200 miles, when he has millions of other choices, unless they are close, and personal? If that's the case, why no electronic footprint? How did he get from the bus station to her home, and where did he stalk her from once he got to her house? He would have had to spend at least one weekend there, maybe more to see her routine. Where did he stay, in the woods? If he drove from NYC in a car, where did he park it?
I am stuck on a local, with no previous involvement, and no footprint. Someone that she didn't know , but he knew of her.

Because doing that makes people say no killer goes that far to kill someone but if you think about it if it's the same dude and he was smart enough to know people would say that then it makes way more sense to. This person seems calculated if it's the same guy. If it isn't then one could be a copy cat who literally went for a girl who looks alike and living in New York a week later. He was inspired so to say.

 

[compassionate]

I will write from my gut & think out loud: I keep seeing this crime as planned as to location and victim. A sexually motivated, targeted murder. Much fantasized about before & after. And above all arrogant. The knowledge this man has not been brought to justice is very hard to take. And the fear it will be years is even harder.

 

[Evey]

The perp could have determined this in any number of ways, or not at all. he could have recognized her as someone he had seen jogging on BSR before, and she was buying a Gatorade, he could've overheard a conversation.
I contend that 27 year old women that regularly exercise have clothes specifically for this activity. And whether she was going for a "walk" or "run" wouldn't change the fact that she would be wearing "exercise" clothes, not street clothes. Take a poll of young women on here if there are any.

In any case, I can't say I'm sure the guy knew she would be running. It's just a possibility to me. I do think there's a strong possibility this person saw her earlier THAT DAY, confirming her whereabouts and setting the attack in motion.

I was 27 when this happened and use to go to the gym a lot and Zumba abd burlesque and no matter what activity it was if I was going to be sweaty and active I had specific clothes I wanted to wear. And as someone who tends to care about my looks I would likely have in her case jogging clothes that make me look hot or that I knew I looked good in. But I myself wear yoga pants and various gym clothes or sports bras outside the gym etc so sometimes girls my age still wear them because they look good and in some girls cases is a good way to meet guys. And she could easily have got dressed for a run then went to the store then decides not to or to stop halfway but stays in the clothes. I think it's pretty clear to anyone that we most likely would be skin something active if seen in them and if this person knows she's goes then all he needs to do after seeing she's dressed for it is wait.

 

[ThinkHard]

I've read her and Kv and ally all did some form of writing or blogging and were they active enough online to show some stranger their patterns? They could have stumbled about kv on some fitness blog or something and then saw vm getting on a bus to go to Princeton and followed or stalked her social media and found out she goes there weekly ans followed her a few times to see how easy it would be. If blogging or social media or jogging and their looks and public transportation are his way to find them then i would look and see what friends each have in common on social media. Ally I don't find related most likely but if they had one person all in common as a follower or any posts about someone following them that would be interesting. Also didn't see he black we photo but it could be makeup or dark circles from lack of sleep or health related.

You can't follow someone on a bus to Princeton this has been explained at nauseum. There are NO direct buses to Princeton, there is NO public transportation to Princeton at all. The bus would go NYC to Worcester which by car is about 3 hours but by bus can be longer. Then a private car would have to drive 30 minutes on backroads to get to Princeton. Following her in this manner is practically impossible. No one just spotted her hoping on a bus and followed her. If they follows her to Princeton they had been planning a long time.

 

[ThinkHard]

To mean them knocking on doors shows they think it's a local and they've also as far as I know have never said they saw signs of a struggle by the road. Only struggle related injuries they never said happened by where she was found. I think she was taken somewhere else. And this guy may be a New York dude and knew they'd blame locals. This person likely knows her barely just in a she has talked to him naybe briefly but he's been stalking way longer. Did she post anything sexy near her death that could trigger him? Why did nobody hear screaming? Where was her phone or headphones?

They have said they believe she fought her attacker and he likely had scrapes and scratches. No they didn't say WHERE they thought this struggle took place but they certainly never said they didn't find evidence it took place in a certain place. So just because we do not know where the struggle took place doesn't mean the police don't and they may in fact have evidence on the ground that a struggle did in fact take place there...we just aren't privy to that info....but you seem to be assuming because we aren't privy to info it must. It exist...and I think that is a very grave mistake...the police have said very little in the case...you shouldn't dismiss things simply because we haven't been told one way or the other.

 

[ThinkHard]

To my knowledge they haven't ruled out it being connected or not connected and to me that says they haven't tested the DNA cause they'd say since there's articles about a serial killer. They need to look for mutual friends and anything else to count the other DNA out so we know its two different people. Then again sometimes people work in twos but the amount of stuff in common is what makes me wonder. Also the way heeft her close to the road etc screams look st me. He isn't trying to hide it he's over confident he's experienced and the lighting her on fire could have just been interrupted cause maybe he was on lunch break and saw the time and had to stop. I want to know an exact timeline of when she left and when she died and when they reported it and when they found her so we can try to calculate how much time he had for it. He wants attention though and isn't trying to hide anything and is comfortable in the area.

Respectfully but you might want to read through old posts because you are repeating a lot of stuff...but they do have DNA in both cases, and they have tested them...before testing they didn't feel the cases were related and that stance didn't change after testing.

So if you want to believe they are connected and the cops are just keeping it from us that's your choice. But the more likely scenario is that the DNA proves they are in fact not connected and just like in many other cases LE felt no reason to report a negative test result, especially when they already stated they didn't believe the cases were related.

 

[Evey]

Yes, that's precisely the one I am talking about. It's just after that recording that the privacy settings changed. And that makes me think she changed the settings because of something in Princeton. Because if she went home to NY, she probably wouldn't think to change it unless she went on a run there and something happened during that run to cause her to change the settings. But at that point, the last run shown would have been NY. She ran several times in Princeton, then after that Odd BSR turn around, turned settings to private. Something's up with that!

I think she saw someone and they acted weird too many times then subs started popping up other places or adding her on social media(wonder what went private on there also) because when someone creeps me out I go and change my privacy so none of my profile photos are public and sometimes change my IG back to private. And if someone creeped me out I would cut my run short and turn around. Maybe she saw the dude in the van that the one runner talked about who clearly had a passenger with him hiding in back. I would change my run pattern and maybe she did but we don't know cause of the privacy. and the self defense class I wonder when that post was compared to the privacy change but who knows maybe the karina case caused her to want to change her privacy for her safety.

 

[ThinkHard]

To my knowledge they haven't ruled out it being connected or not connected and to me that says they haven't tested the DNA cause they'd say since there's articles about a serial killer. They need to look for mutual friends and anything else to count the other DNA out so we know its two different people. Then again sometimes people work in twos but the amount of stuff in common is what makes me wonder. Also the way heeft her close to the road etc screams look st me. He isn't trying to hide it he's over confident he's experienced and the lighting her on fire could have just been interrupted cause maybe he was on lunch break and saw the time and had to stop. I want to know an exact timeline of when she left and when she died and when they reported it and when they found her so we can try to calculate how much time he had for it. He wants attention though and isn't trying to hide anything and is comfortable in the area.

This has already been done...reread through old post, don't expect others to do the work for you...many of us have been here since the beginning of this case...if you come in late we welcome you with open arms...but it is expected you read up a bit instead of just asking everyone to fill I things for you we have been over lots before. The window has long been established to be btw 1:15-3pm

 

[Evey]

Yes this is totally a possibility. I think the general feeling is that if someone local to Princeton why her And why now? It's just such a highly unusual place for a random crime like that to occur

The perp could have determined this in any number of ways, or not at all. he could have recognized her as someone he had seen jogging on BSR before, and she was buying a Gatorade, he could've overheard a conversation.
I contend that 27 year old women that regularly exercise have clothes specifically for this activity. And whether she was going for a "walk" or "run" wouldn't change the fact that she would be wearing "exercise" clothes, not street clothes. Take a poll of young women on here if there are any.

In any case, I can't say I'm sure the guy knew she would be running. It's just a possibility to me. I do think there's a strong possibility this person saw her earlier THAT DAY, confirming her whereabouts and setting the attack in motion.

You may very well be right, but, why didn't she run, back, instead of walk that day, if something creeped her out that much?

Because if she started running or showed fear or knowledge of him being suspicious then he would chase after her or something. And because now she's had seen him and hence hiding his face somehow. Cause she could use an excuse of the heat if someone bothered her and she likely would know not to til him off that shes creeped out when alone. If she only changes her privacy on that then she clearly only worried about this dude coming for her on some runs maybe he said something that sounded as if he knew too much about her patterns.

 

[ForensicMass]

You know I wondered if he was local and he noticed when she visited now and again. People like that can get obsessed. I can see a situation where he knows she is in town and takes a couple trips down BSR. Then on one of those trips he sees her - " There she is". Turns around and parks seemingly trying to check out his vehicle and waits for her to pass..+ ( not that she knew who he was )

An abduction gone wrong is still my opinion.

This would be consistent with the fact that on her previous trip in the summer where she recorded her runs, she ran nearly every day while in Princeton. So she was certainly visible to the community when she was around.
Failed abduction is still solidly in the lead in my opinion. With that in mind now we have to narrow down who this could have been. What you outlined above certainly makes sense to me

 

[ThinkHard]

It be ran her off the road into the forest when she noticed he was following her then found that guy that there was an article about who offered a jogger water be the perp? I would need to find it but it creeped me out that the dude basically ran her off the road then pulls over to offer her water from his van where someone is clearly sitting in the seat behind behind the passenger and seems male. She turned it down and said she would have had to reach in the passenger window to get the water. No adult would sit behind an open front seat in a van normally.. and to me taking self defense class means you're scared of someone enough to go and likely they'd maybe tell you what to beware of.

Stop blowing up a news story about nothing! Seriously! That women over reacted. The man (who I know) and is the nicest person drives around people with disabilities which is why he had a person in his back seat not beside him. He is the type to offer someone a ride on a cold day whether he knows them or not, and give water to a thirsty runner on a hot one. I guess people aren't use to kindness anymore so they assume everyone intends them harm. That women just over reacted.

I'm sorry but it's really frustrating to have you come in here and tell us about this case and then bring up stuff that's already been established. If you want to contribute that's great, but please try to come on knowing some of the facts or try to read about them before "adding" cause when you add old stories like this that are about an innocent man and have nothing to do with the case...or ask us to tell you the window he would have had to kill her...it's just feels like it derails progress a bit. Again we do want you here, I am just asking you do a little of the catch up work so we aren't repeating stuff.

 

[Evey]

SOURCE: Shirley Police Department

Runner calls police after spotting vehicle

Updated: 10:24 PM EDT Aug 31, 2016


I don't recall us discussing this 911 report of an attack on a jogger after VM was murdered but in the same month.

This is the thing I was talking about that the runner posted about the dude also supposedly came forward and is some army veteran I read once but it's sketchy case who hides in the seat behind the front passenger seat rather than in it since nobody else is?

 

[ThinkHard]

None of what I said was speaking for you. Sorry if it sounded that way.

I don't see who would have known that she was there that day and running at that time. To me based on her running habits the time of her run was very likely something that she decided on after waking up that day. So who could have known that? you said you meant someone who would know that she would be running on that specific day, and targeted her at that specific time and location. But who would know that?

On a run during similar hot weather conditions on August 22, 2015, she ran at 9:30 in the morning ( we runners do this often to avoid the heat of the day during this time of year)

How long in advance do you think she had this run time planned? This is a key issue for me and it seems to be a sticking point. Running in the summer is something I am very familiar with. In looking at about 20 of her runs, including about a half dozen in Princeton, there is nothing that suggests to me that her run was at a set time that day. I know the media stated generally that she had a habit of running before returning to New York City, But that doesn't immediately before.




Who would know about a run that specific afternoon. Surely there was no explicit mention of it in text messages- or if there was, then that person had been ruled out by now. We are 4 months in. If it was someone very close to her they would have keyed in on this person and they wouldn't be asking about a dark SUV. JMO.

This could be a key component of the case: I would love some evidence that someone would know that she was running at that specific time. To me that knowledge wouldn't be available until she made that decision, that day.

I don't know who that person would be it I think the answer is in that. But I think it's more likely then a random attack at that location on a Sunday afternoon in broad daylight.

Perhaps she saw someone she knew in the store or even in the parking lot of the store...perhaps it was here she told the person she knew she was headed out for a run, perhaps he offered to join her, or asked if they could talk...and she said to give her an hour...my point is there would be no phone record.

I think she knew her attacker and he her. I don't know in what way, but to
Me their familiarity could explain a lot. I also am not convinced he approached her that day in a sudden and violent way. I think there was a level of safety she may have felt with this person, it could explain the lack of screams, how she got to that place in the path, why his car might have been parked...stuff like that.

I just get the hunch this isn't a crime of opportunity thing. I think the story is much more complicated and there are a lot of pieces we are not privy too, and I think the circumstances that lead to her death were personal in nature, rather then a trophy victim for a serial killer.

 

[Kickoff61]

If his DNA is not in the database, then his reasons for attempting to erase any trace of it would logically be that he figures as he is a local he may come under suspicion and in his mind at least be required to provide a DNA sample (also bear in mind that many folk don't know that there is a evidentiary threshold that must be met before you are required to provide a sample).

In answer to your second question, a rapist would kill because they don't want to be identified and jailed for rape. The person most likely to identify them is of course their victim. By murdering them, the key (and in most cases the only) witness is eliminated.

Very good point. That would explain his trying to get rid of the DNA left behind even though he is not in the system. They can still make the connection to him within the town. Much different than the entire state or country, clearly. So that could be the answer right there.

 

[Kickoff61]

Until or unless LE captures the perp we'll probably never get an answer to any of these questions. There's only 1 right answer, but we'll never know it unless the perp reveals how he did it and what his movements were or LE finds out and discloses it.

You are right.

 

[Evey]

You can't follow someone on a bus to Princeton this has been explained at nauseum. There are NO direct buses to Princeton, there is NO public transportation to Princeton at all. The bus would go NYC to Worcester which by car is about 3 hours but by bus can be longer. Then a private car would have to drive 30 minutes on backroads to get to Princeton. Following her in this manner is practically impossible. No one just spotted her hoping on a bus and followed her. If they follows her to Princeton they had been planning a long time.

Oh I know that none go directly there. But since I read a few people saying she took a bus and her dad got her or whatever it reminded me of what was written about KV except they said train there. The dude may not even need to have followed her but saw her and somehow found out who she was and watching her jogging chart long enough to know her pattern and maybe go to town to check it out. I think it's someone local myself