Madeleine McCann found?

[Donjeta]

because the torture case involved was one in which a mother was tortured into confessing that she had killed her own child. The child disappeared three years before Madeleine disappeared and only a few miles away, she has never been found and the only evidence against the mother was her confession. Now if Madeleine was found to have been abducted by a stranger it strengthens the idea that Joanna was also taken by an abductor, which in turn strengthens the idea that she was tortured into confessing, which woudl have strengthened the case against Amaral. In effect by looking at evidence of an abductor Amaral was looking for evidence against himself which could have resulted in a criminal conviction and the ruin of his career. As it was Amaral was convicted and received a suspended prison sentance which is quiet a severe penalty.

How many of us here if our child disappeared would want the investigator in charge to be an aguido who if he found the abductor was more likely to get a criminal conviction and a ruined career and reputation?

Well, I generally want my police officers honest but unless there is evidence that Joanna and Madeleine were abducted by the same person I don't see a connection that strengthens the case one way or another.

Even if Madeleine was abducted by a stranger other kids in the area may have been killed by their parents and vice versa.

Also, there is nothing to say that parents who have killed their children can't be tortured by the police.

 

[brit1981]

Well, I generally want my police officers honest but unless there is evidence that Joanna and Madeleine were abducted by the same person I don't see a connection that strengthens the case one way or another.

Even if Madeleine was abducted by a stranger other kids in the area may have been killed by their parents and vice versa.

Also, there is nothing to say that parents who have killed their children can't be tortured by the police.

But it leaves a great big gaping hole of doubt over his bias and honesty. If an abductor was found in that area the first thing that Cipriano's lawyers would have done is to claim that Joana was taken by the same person and that this proved she was tortured into confessing. Therefore Amaral benefited if no abductor was found and the parents or friends were blamed in the Madeleine case regardless of whether there actually was a connection or not. Lets be fair, deep down there is not one person who would have wanted an officer who would be harmed by an abductor being found investigating the disappearence of our loved one.

 

[Donjeta]

But it leaves a great big gaping hole of doubt over his bias and honesty. If an abductor was found in that area the first thing that Cipriano's lawyers would have done is to claim that Joana was taken by the same person and that this proved she was tortured into confessing. Therefore Amaral benefited if no abductor was found and the parents or friends were blamed in the Madeleine case regardless of whether there actually was a connection or not. Lets be fair, deep down there is not one person who would have wanted an officer who would be harmed by an abductor being found investigating the disappearence of our loved one.

While the Cipriano's lawyers can claim whatever they want, I still hold that there needs to be actual evidence that Joana was abducted by the same person as Madeleine was (for that matter, evidence that Madeleine was abducted wouldn't hurt either.)

There is no reason to expect that there can be only one criminal in Portugal.

Anyway, I don't see why Joana needs to have been abducted at all for the police to have acted wrong. Plenty of guilty people have been treated wrong by the police. Police misconduct is not dependent on the person being innocent. I don't have any idea what happened to Joana, just don't see the case for police lying depending on what happened to Madeleine.

I think we can take it for granted that there are both pedophiles and violent parents in Portugal and two cases do not have to be connected unless there is proof that they are.

 

[SapphireSteel]

But it leaves a great big gaping hole of doubt over his bias and honesty. If an abductor was found in that area the first thing that Cipriano's lawyers would have done is to claim that Joana was taken by the same person and that this proved she was tortured into confessing. Therefore Amaral benefited if no abductor was found and the parents or friends were blamed in the Madeleine case regardless of whether there actually was a connection or not. Lets be fair, deep down there is not one person who would have wanted an officer who would be harmed by an abductor being found investigating the disappearence of our loved one.

:what:

This is an extraordinary allegation.

You are alleging an entire police force has colluded with Amaral in purposefully framing innocent parents when a child abductor is on the loose...for what benefit again???? So he doesn't look bad?

Next you are going to accuse Amaral of being the one who is abducting these children, himself, and the entire PJ (including forensic teams, his superiors, his own colleagues) are conspiring to keep him safe to abduct more....!!!

:banghead:

 

[Sabot]

There was no Forensic Evidence pointing to the death of Joana Cipriano or Madeleine McCann.

 

[CanManEh]

What the heck...What is with the thread title . I stoped in to look becaught she was maybe found......then i start reading and its nothing like that at all...change the name of this thread..

 

[brit1981]

While the Cipriano's lawyers can claim whatever they want, I still hold that there needs to be actual evidence that Joana was abducted by the same person as Madeleine was (for that matter, evidence that Madeleine was abducted wouldn't hurt either.)

There is no reason to expect that there can be only one criminal in Portugal.

Anyway, I don't see why Joana needs to have been abducted at all for the police to have acted wrong. Plenty of guilty people have been treated wrong by the police. Police misconduct is not dependent on the person being innocent. I don't have any idea what happened to Joana, just don't see the case for police lying depending on what happened to Madeleine.

I think we can take it for granted that there are both pedophiles and violent parents in Portugal and two cases do not have to be connected unless there is proof that they are.

I agree. However, in a court case, there just needs to be that bit of doubt. And a second disappearence of a female child in the same area in a three year period raises that doubt. It may well be conincidence, but any defence lawyer is going to argue that it is so rare to have a child disappearing without a trace, that to have two cases so close together raises the distinct possibility they are related. Therefore in a court case it increased the chances people would believe the torture case (which in the end they did anyway), plus by putting Amaral in charge it left the case wide open to accusations of bias. It does not matter if the bias was there, it matters if there is a possibility of it. The police should be above reproach. The PJ should have removed the possibility of accusations of bias by not putting Amaral in charge in the first place. Now there is always going to be that question mark over his handling of the case, especially since in his book (according to excerpts I have seen) he admits he did not follow up leads that suggested an abductor as this did not fit with his theory.

 

[Sabot]

Two little girls disappear without trace within 7 kilometres in the space of three years. This would raise a huge doubt in my mind, which in fact it did. Especially as a Confession was beaten out of the mother of the first child. This is why The British Ambassador arrived so quickly on the scene. Britain wasn't taking the chance of another False Confession. Britain did practically nothing when Michael Cook was tortured in Police Custody in Portugal for a crime that he almost certainly didn't commit.
Far too many Cases of Police Torture in Portugal are now coming to light.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Two little girls disappear without trace within 7 kilometres in the space of three years. This would raise a huge doubt in my mind, which in fact it did. Especially as a Confession was beaten out of the mother of the first child. This is why The British Ambassador arrived so quickly on the scene. Britain wasn't taking the chance of another False Confession. Britain did practically nothing when Michael Cook was tortured in Police Custody in Portugal for a crime that he almost certainly didn't commit.
Far too many Cases of Police Torture in Portugal are now coming to light.

First of all, it was seven MILES not km, seven miles is 11.2 km...in the interests of accuracy.

The mother and uncle of Joana confessed to murdering her.

That is why they were found guilty and imprisoned.

Statistically speaking, it is usually immediate family when children of this age are harmed/disappear. Indeed, in Joana's case, not only did her mother confess to killing her, her uncle also admitted that he beat her to death and dismembered her with the help of her mother.

Two "abductions" in FOUR years is statistically insignificant. As Madeleine now disappeared over five years ago, it is now two disappearances over nine years, and counting.

An inexplicable "cover up" on behalf of the local LE (still no theory offered as to WHY they would invent parental crimes) is looking increasingly far fetched especially as one disappearance has resulted in convictions for murder - unless you're going to allege the enitre judiciary was in on the "cover up" as well.

If there is a rampant child abductor prowling the PDL environs with the blessing of the police, they aren't particularly keen on being rampant, in my opinion, with only one possibly two victims in 13 years?...or is that 20 or 40 years, being that the only other case I know of in the area at all was another British child who was abducted and murdered years before coincidentally, by an uncle.

Considering how successful they have been in operating completely undetected, and the fact they unaccountably have the support and blessing of the police, one would assume they would help themselves to one or two children per YEAR not per decade.


:banghead:

 

[Donjeta]

I agree. However, in a court case, there just needs to be that bit of doubt. And a second disappearence of a female child in the same area in a three year period raises that doubt. It may well be conincidence, but any defence lawyer is going to argue that it is so rare to have a child disappearing without a trace, that to have two cases so close together raises the distinct possibility they are related. Therefore in a court case it increased the chances people would believe the torture case (which in the end they did anyway), plus by putting Amaral in charge it left the case wide open to accusations of bias. It does not matter if the bias was there, it matters if there is a possibility of it. The police should be above reproach. The PJ should have removed the possibility of accusations of bias by not putting Amaral in charge in the first place. Now there is always going to be that question mark over his handling of the case, especially since in his book (according to excerpts I have seen) he admits he did not follow up leads that suggested an abductor as this did not fit with his theory.

Well I do hope that they believed the torture case because there was evidence that the woman was tortured and not because Madeleine went missing and might possibly have been abducted by a person who had or had not abducted Joana. Otherwise it's just bias that points the other way.

 

[Sabot]

No Confession extracted by Torture can possibly be trusted. Both Confessions were retracted almost immediately afterwards. Two of the Judges in The Cipriano Case voted Not Guilty. And if you read the Transcript of The Trial, the whole thing was a farce with most of the so called Evidence declared Unproven.
However, if people wish to think that The Ciprianos were guilty then that is up to them. They will both receive Compensation for the Torture they were subjected to.

The McCanns have never even been arrested. And at the moment Goncalo Amaral is doing his utmost to delay The Libel Trial, probably because he knows he hasn't got a hope in hells chance of winning.

 

[fabgod]

Quote Sabot
"And at the moment Goncalo Amaral is doing his utmost to delay The Libel Trial, probably because he knows he hasn't got a hope in hells chance of winning"

Remind me, this is the third and final court meeting of the two parties and Amaral has lost how many?

 

[SapphireSteel]

Regardless, all of this has exactly zero to do with Madeleine.

If the investigation was so incompetent, I wonder why the presumably far superior and less biased one being run and funded to this day by Team McCann has yet to come up with a single extra piece of evidence?

Clearly some posters believe a bunch of liars and torturers were in charge of the investigation, Team McCann should've been able to have a field day disproving Amaral's theories...and yet...silence.

:dunno:

 

[Sabot]

Quote Sabot
"And at the moment Goncalo Amaral is doing his utmost to delay The Libel Trial, probably because he knows he hasn't got a hope in hells chance of winning"

Remind me, this is the third and final court meeting of the two parties and Amaral has lost how many?

The McCanns won an injunction against the book. This injunction was overturned because the book had not yet been deemed libellous in a court of Law.
The Libel trial is still to be heard as Amaral has had it delayed three times now.

 

[SapphireSteel]

The McCanns won an injunction against the book. This injunction was overturned because the book had not yet been deemed libellous in a court of Law.
The Libel trial is still to be heard as Amaral has had it delayed three times now.

Can anyone explain why the McCann Foundations "Leave No Stone Unturned" fund is being spent on supressing information?

I think the fund should be renamed "Leave No Stone Unturned Except the Ones We Want Left Unturned", in the interests of accuracy.

ullhair:

 

[brit1981]

Can anyone explain why the McCann Foundations "Leave No Stone Unturned" fund is being spent on supressing information?

I think the fund should be renamed "Leave No Stone Unturned Except the Ones We Want Left Unturned", in the interests of accuracy.

ullhair:

Information is factual, the libel case is about surpressing fabrications that could endanger the life of the child (we only have to look at the minority who demand an inquest shoudl be held to see this is true). Libel is incredibly easy to defend against - just tell the truth. If you have enough evidence to write a book and claim it is factual then you will have no problems proving that you are telling the truth in court. Amaral has no problem with peopel being taken to court for libel as he has done this himself (and lost and has now to pay the other sides and the courts costs as well as his own).

And so far no-one has shown evidence that the McCanns are using the fund to pay for this, but as someone who has donated I have no probelm if they do as we can see from those supporting him that Amaral's claims are harming the chances of madeleine being found.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

No Confession extracted by Torture can possibly be trusted. Both Confessions were retracted almost immediately afterwards. Two of the Judges in The Cipriano Case voted Not Guilty. And if you read the Transcript of The Trial, the whole thing was a farce with most of the so called Evidence declared Unproven.
However, if people wish to think that The Ciprianos were guilty then that is up to them. They will both receive Compensation for the Torture they were subjected to.

The McCanns have never even been arrested. And at the moment Goncalo Amaral is doing his utmost to delay The Libel Trial, probably because he knows he hasn't got a hope in hells chance of winning.

the Mc´s should have to be arrested because they left 3 babies alone in an apptm. in holidays all nights during a week, and so is why accidents happened and having to cover up , and that´s my opinion

 

[brit1981]

the Mc´s should have to be arrested because they left 3 babies alone in an apptm. in holidays all nights during a week, and so is why accidents happened and having to cover up , and that´s my opinion

Leaving the children in this way was not illegal, so they cannot legally be arrested for that. there is no evidence an accident occurred, and no evidence the McCanns and their friends are covering anything up.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Information is factual, the libel case is about surpressing fabrications that could endanger the life of the child (we only have to look at the minority who demand an inquest shoudl be held to see this is true). Libel is incredibly easy to defend against - just tell the truth. If you have enough evidence to write a book and claim it is factual then you will have no problems proving that you are telling the truth in court. Amaral has no problem with peopel being taken to court for libel as he has done this himself (and lost and has now to pay the other sides and the courts costs as well as his own).

And so far no-one has shown evidence that the McCanns are using the fund to pay for this, but as someone who has donated I have no probelm if they do as we can see from those supporting him that Amaral's claims are harming the chances of madeleine being found.

Yet more extraordinary allegations.

How exactly is Amaral hurting the chances of Madeleine being found? Short of being the one who actually abducted her? Has someone checked his garden shed?

A published book written by the lead investigator on Madeleine's abduction is "fabrication"? Then why did the McCanns attempts at surpressing publication FAIL?

:banghead:

 

[brit1981]

He published a book that claimed she was dead, and her parents disposed of her body which is akin to telling people that there is no point looking for her. he also admits that he failed to follow up leads about an abductor, and if you read his take on the DNA analysis it is obvious that sadly he was not capable of understanding basic genetics which meant he misunderstood what the material meant.