Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #19

[Newthoughts]

I followed a different case here for a while about Libby in Hull. I don't remember the public being given any evidence of the perpetrator's guilt. I am new to this websleuthing but it seems to me that evidence is only presented to the courts and the lawers when somebody is charged? Maybe I am wrong and naive but I don't see any reason for the prosecutor to lie when they say they have material evidence of MM's death for which they think CB is responsible. And the fact that they are not charging him yet might only have to do with proving his guilt to the court BARD. Jmo

I might also be naive but I'm right with you and from the same case.

I also followed Libby's case as my daughter was a student at Hull and her friend was one of the students that he had stolen from days before Libby disappeared

You're right - no evidence at all was given to the public. He was arrested on suspicion but not charged within the 36 hour time frame. His name was everywhere. He was however, charged for other unrelated so called minor sexual offences. No evidence was given out until that trial where he got 8 years.

It then took absolutely ages for the police to charge him with anything related to Libby and many websleuthers were saying exactly the same as they're saying here. That there couldn't be any evidence. That the cos the police couldn't charge him straight away they hadn't got enough. That at best they'd go for manslaughter. Etc etc. That they had been wrong to name him

There were also requests for 4 people to come forward that didn't seem to happen.

But after a long time they did charge him with rape and murder. They'd taken a lot of time to gather and collate evidence. It hasn't been presented to the public but it's clearly sufficient for a charge

If it hadn't been for covid-19 his trial would have been in July.

I think once LE had him safely locked up they were able to take their time. I would hope that is the case in all serious crimes. That as long as the public are protected the police take time to dot every i. So I'm not surprised similar is happening here

 

[redplanet]

HB who?

HB who was attacked in Pria da Rocha.
https://www.independent.ie/entertai...rrowing-rape-ordeal-live-on-air-30921788.html

 

[MENDEL]

Of course I assume Braunschweig's LE is doing their job the best they can and in good faith.

Libby's case is a good example but police conceded they had no evidence and so charged him with minor crimes and the case didn't take as much time as here. 8 months against almost 3.5 years and still counting.

 

[MENDEL]

Problems here are Braunschweig can be wrong, CB might have accomplices, and if MM died her body must be rescued for a deserved dignified funeral.

 

[C.greek]

Of course I assume Braunschweig's LE is doing their job the best they can and in good faith.

Libby's case is a good example but police conceded they had no evidence and so charged him with minor crimes and the case didn't take as much time as here. 8 months against almost 3.5 years and still counting.

If I remember correctly Libby's body was first found before PR was charged with her rape and murder. Here unfortunately we have no body and it had already been 10 years since MM's abduction when German LE started investigating. Time is never on the side of the victims or their families. :-(

 

[mrjitty]

If I remember correctly Libby's body was first found before PR was charged with her rape and murder. Here unfortunately we have no body and it had already been 10 years since MM's abduction when German LE started investigating. Time is never on the side of the victims or their families. :-(

That is really the key in the Libby case. There was still a good chance the victim's body would turn up, which it did, which makes charging and prosecution so much easier.

 

[mrjitty]

You're right - no evidence at all was given to the public. He was arrested on suspicion but not charged within the 36 hour time frame. His name was everywhere. He was however, charged for other unrelated so called minor sexual offences. No evidence was given out until that trial where he got 8 years.

RSBM

There is a significant difference. Namely the accused was arrested and interrogated, meaning he was confronted with some or all of the evidence that police held against him.

I think once LE had him safely locked up they were able to take their time. I would hope that is the case in all serious crimes. That as long as the public are protected the police take time to dot every i. So I'm not surprised similar is happening here

Again in this case it is not similar. In the Libby case, the suspect was arrested and confronted with key evidence against him. Ultimately CPS felt it did not have enough to charge.

In the case of CB, Herr Wolters has not merely said CB is a suspect, but rather that CB is guilty, all without confronting the accused with any evidence.

Finally in the Libby case, the general public was in fact aware of key evidence that raised suspicion against the accused.

All I am saying is in the case of CB, we actually are not aware of any evidence that links him to the crime. Just some tabloid accusations about burglaries.

 

[mrjitty]

He was charged for other crimes than Libby's murder and he was sentenced for those. The charge for Libby's murder came much later.

For me, Libby is the gold standard of how the criminal justice system should work.

When the state arrests a suspect, and goes public for information, that naturally casts a cloud of suspicion over the suspect which might be unfair. We grant the police a limited time to hold a suspect, and in any interrogation, they must confront him with evidence they hold, which relates to the line of questioning. This allows the suspect to confront the evidence against him, with legal representation. This process also has judicial oversight. So if you cannot charge you must release.

Personally I would have found it quite bizarre and improper for detectives to have announced PR did it, but then say oh yeah we lack the key evidence to prove it!

Crucially, the suspect may be in possession of exculpatory evidence which he can present in interrogation, to clear suspicion. He cannot do this easily if he is never questioned!

There is a big difference though which might explain the different process- CB is already in jail. Also the charge for Libby's murder came after PR was already in jail. So there is no real *rush* to either interrogate or have CB in custody since he is already in prison and not a danger to the public. Is there another case where the perpetrator was already in jail when charged for another crime? If so, what process was followed?

Again, I have no problem with the waiting aspect. They found evidence of other crimes and charged them which enabled them to hold PR on remand. That is a common tactic - see for instance the Becky Watts case. In both the Watts and Libby cases, they essentially waited to find the body.

Maybe I get too wound up about this as an ex-lawyer, but for me the key to naming a specific suspect, is the arrest, interrogation, and Court oversight, meaning there is due process and the accused confronts some or all of the evidence against him. The general public will properly take notice of the suspect, and conviction of law enforcement that the suspect may indeed be guilty

What I don't like is trial by media where you announce the suspect is guilty without charging them or at a minimum, confronting them with key evidence in interrogation.

 

[mrjitty]

Of course I assume Braunschweig's LE is doing their job the best they can and in good faith.

Libby's case is a good example but police conceded they had no evidence and so charged him with minor crimes and the case didn't take as much time as here. 8 months against almost 3.5 years and still counting.

Where Libby is similar to the MM case is without the body, its hard to prove what crime (if any) was committed.

 

[mrjitty]

Problems here are Braunschweig can be wrong,

I worry they have gone out on a limb and now they have nowhere to go with this.

 

[MENDEL]

On top of all that, NF is likely an accomplice as she was not only aware of CB's criminal life, but also took part in it. HCW clearly denied that in his interviews and insists she's but a witness. Weird.

 

[SuperdadV8]

This is a murder case and in german law there is no statue of limitation on murder.

To treat possible accomplices as witnesses in first, can be some kind of strategy. To keep them as suspects, shouldn't be that helpful, because they keep quiet, usually.

It also can put some pressure on a suspect to come out, if the suspect get's aware of possible accomplices, putting just him or her in focus of the prosecuters.

There is also a possibility of accomplices to abduction, but not a possible following murder. They can be crucial witnesses for the abduction and another clue to the murder, without being part of the investigated murder itself. Of course these people shouldn't be kept as a supect in first, but as a witness.

Every witness has the opportunity not to incriminate himself, if his testimony will lead to a self-accusation of a crime. But that doesn't bother the status as a witness or the possibility to investigate the witness later.

 

[SuperdadV8]

FF being interviewed over the appeal in the rape case of DM. Again challenging the witnesses credibility but he knows, CB won't leave prison in january due to the ongoing trial in that case. Even if this trial should be revisited, the arrest warrant against CB stays valid, because he broke parole-rules in the past.

Talking about MM case either. Critisizing prosecuters strategy, but also saying, it's a special case and because of that not really comparable. In his opinion, the fair trial principle has been broken nevertheless.

Talking about his trip to PDL. He is more open minded to more suspects, than prosecuters are, by only investigating CB. To him, without telling too much, it had been "insightful".....!

FF seems to be much more "grounded" by making his statements, than some weeks ago IMO.

 

[Anxala]

They must have other evidence (the material evidence HCW mentioned ) to publicly name him as a suspect. Otherwise, this naming would not have been possible IMO. So, they are only trying to find the other pieces of the puzzle (the phone call, the interior of his houses, etc) in order to build a very strong case against him that can stand in court and find him guilty. Otherwise, how would the German prosecutor be allowed to name CB? HCW said that he cannot answer whether CB can be placed in the apartment. What if they have found images or other visual material of the apartment that night in CB's stack of images/videos but cannot prove that he took them? IMO that is the whole point. They have confessions(from 2 witnesses at least), they have this material evidence-whatever that is- but they need to be certain to prove that CB took these images/videos or whatever they have found. Otherwise, he could just say that he got them from the Dark web. Jmo

Oh I don't doubt the LE have other evidence. For them not to have would be astonishing considering their claims. I just wonder how strong it can be if they're still dependent upon such random 'external factors' to place CB where they need him to be placed in order to arrest/question him. That's all.

If Herr Wolters wasn't so Fagin-like with his miserly crumbs of info, I might be less confused.

 

[Anxala]

@SuperdadV8 - O/T re that drawing/painting in the background of FF's interview, do you know what it is/who it's by? I'm sure I've seen it before someplace and should know what it is/what it's called. Is it one of those 'scales of justice' pics?

I just really want to see the full painting. All/any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Victoria Chambers]

I find it hard to believe that anybody, even back in 2007, who was supposedly involved in drug trafficking and who supposedly had talked of hiding kids in his vehicle - would make or receive a call on a device that was registered to himself and stay on the line for the best part of half an hour, right at the crime scene ?? Criminals are very much informed of all the new state-of-the-art technology and services that are available to LE in order to make convictions ie, phone masts/ pings, tracking devices etc, way before the general public know of it! Even a 10second call is enough to become suspect, half an hour seems ridiculously careless! IMO. X

 

[SuperdadV8]

@SuperdadV8 - O/T re that drawing/painting in the background of FF's interview, do you know what it is/who it's by? I'm sure I've seen it before someplace and should know what it is/what it's called. Is it one of those 'scales of justice' pics?

I just really want to see the full painting. All/any input would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, but i can't tell you anything about the drawing, it's style, origin or heritage.

But i can tell you, FF reffered to star-solicitor Johann S., his companion. And media-horny JS hasn't gone into the media until now and that is unusual! I learnt him to know as a much more progressive solicitor.

 

[MENDEL]

@SuperdadV8 - O/T re that drawing/painting in the background of FF's interview, do you know what it is/who it's by? I'm sure I've seen it before someplace and should know what it is/what it's called. Is it one of those 'scales of justice' pics?

I just really want to see the full painting. All/any input would be greatly appreciated.

This is it, Anxala.

Honoré Daumier, Un Avocat Plaidant, c. 1845 Hammer Museum Los Angeles.

​

 

[MENDEL]

I find it hard to believe that anybody, even back in 2007, who was supposedly involved in drug trafficking and who supposedly had talked of hiding kids in his vehicle - would make or receive a call on a device that was registered to himself and stay on the line for the best part of half an hour, right at the crime scene ?? Criminals are very much informed of all the new state-of-the-art technology and services that are available to LE in order to make convictions ie, phone masts/ pings, tracking devices etc, way before the general public know of it! Even a 10second call is enough to become suspect, half an hour seems ridiculously careless! IMO. X

Indeed for SM an unanswered call logged was enough to have the car firebombed. They say.

 

[Anxala]

This is it, Anxala.

Honoré Daumier, Un Avocat Plaidant, c. 1845 Hammer Museum Los Angeles.

​

Thank you so much, Mendel!

I knew I remembered it from somewhere and now I remember why; it was the light. It's so beautiful and filled with drama.