Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[redplanet]

Perhaps they have some kind of evidence (confession/statement) indicating that MM left the apartment of her own accord - perhaps to look for her parents - & was snatched from an outside location?

That's an interestimg idea. IMO a small child could slide the lounge balcony door open and go out. However this would not explain how the bedroom window and shutter came to be open?

 

[redplanet]

That's an interestimg idea. IMO a small child could slide the lounge balcony door open and go out. However this would not explain how the bedroom window and shutter came to be open?

... unless him opening the shutter and window causes the child to run and out the lounge balcony door???

 

[Newthoughts]

Perhaps they have some kind of evidence (confession/statement) indicating that MM left the apartment of her own accord - perhaps to look for her parents - & was snatched from an outside location?

Or left the apartment happily with CB? Why wouldn't she trust him? She was a pre school little girl.

Accounts suggest she was confident and outgoing. Accounts suggest he chatted to kids at his kiosk quite happily so could communicate with children.

Primary school safety lessons about not going off with strangers that seem nice are for a reason. It's got to be one of the easiest ways to abduct a small child.

I think it would be far too difficult for her to get out of the appt alone but I do think she'd go with a stranger that said they'd go find mummy.

 

[Newthoughts]

... unless him opening the shutter and window causes the child to run and out the lounge balcony door???

I don't think she'd have the strength or height or knowledge to open any external door or window.

 

[SuperdadV8]

According to report of "Spiegel" from october 9th, CB was sentenced of abusing the daughter of a girlfriend. It is reported, that he was able to produce paedo pics in a park. So our little "master of disguise" seems to be trustworthy enough to make mothers let him spend time with their children alone.

So of course, CB seems to be able to handle small children in a lovely way whilst hiding his real aim, like a lot of paedos do successfully.

 

[altojack]

Madeleine McCann cops 'confident' of charging prime suspect Christian B with her disappearance

Just seen this in this mornings paper.

 

[mrjitty]

Your interesting thought experiment has no open shutter or window, and therefore has no evidence of any entry into the apartment by CB.

Permit me to indulge my inner legal nerd.

In a case like this, guilt will be proved by inference, and provided HCW can directly tie CB to a murder then he need not prove anything about 5A directly - that can be inferred.

Let me give you an example from my favourite McStay case. In that case, the family of 4 were last known to be in their residence, going about their lawful business. Then they vanished and were found 4 years later in a shallow grave in the desert.

The State was unable to prove where they were murdered, or how they left the house - yet still established guilt by inference via 2 methods

1. A vehicle similar to the accused was captured leaving the residence at the time of disappearance

2. The accused had guilty knowledge of the deaths before the disappearance was discovered.

So assuming HCW has a piece of evidence which a) proves murder and b) ties CB directly to the murder (HCW has claimed this in his Australian interview) he would not need to prove anything about 5A. Rather it can simply be inferred that somehow, MM left 5A.

 

[mrjitty]

I don't know how much more they could hope to obtain from re-interviewing the witnesses about the timeline but I tend to agree with you with regards to the Smith/Tanner sightings. Listening to the podcast again, this is what is said about it.

Interviewer: There was a sighting of a man carrying a child May 3rd, 10 o'clock that night. And you say you are looking for witnesses, he was walking towards the beach, carrying a child that looked a lot like Madeleine. It was an Irish family that saw him, have you spoken to them?

HCW: I know the picture, and I think we have, um, everything from this witness. But I'm not allowed to speak about the details.

Interviewer: Sure. Have you interviewed ths Smith family in Ireland about this sighting?

HCW: I... I don't know if we interviewed the family, or if the British police interviewed the family or the Portuguese police, I don't know. If one of those polices, um, interviewed the family, I'm sure that we have the result of this interview.
'Madeleine is Dead' - They've Taken Her - Omny.fm

In the press reports where MS states he does not recognise CB, it also says that German police have never been in contact with him, nor has the Met since he gave his last statement 6 years ago. He talks about seeing CB's picture for the first time in the recent press.

From HCW's comments, and MS's recent account, It seems to me that German LE believe this sighting has nothing to do with MM's disappearance.

BIB

I agree. I think they are interested in a different chrono which has nothing to do with the well known timeline of the 3rd. I think HCW is very focussed on where CB was on the 3rd and days following, and who he was with.

It's not clear if HCW even knows which sighting the interviewer is talking about initially, since he interrupts before the interviewer says "Irish family" and talks about knowing "the picture". What picture? Does he mean the Tannerman sketch? In which case, have they ruled that scenario out too?

He sounded impatient here - like having to deal with the usual questions but they don't matter. For me, what is interesting is the Met were highly interested in this sighting by HCW is not.

The question is, why, given how desperate they are for witnesses, would they not have followed up on these potential sightings? Why not at least see if they recognised CB? For me, it must surely be that the evidence they have of the crime tells them this sighting could not possibly have been CB and MM. For them to know that, they'd need more information than simply CB having killed MM.

Or maybe it is simply not a time period that interests them?

Unless they can somehow place CB/MM at another location and time that makes the sighting impossible, I'd lean towards them knowing something about the course of events that night that tells them CB did something specific that simply doesn’t fit with these sightings.

I tend to agree.

 

[mrjitty]

IMO all these logical and comprehensible thoughts would be that relevant, if the mere kidnapping will be the crucial part in the investigation.

....

In my opinion, it really isn't that much important how MM left the apartment, for keeping it as a murder case.

....

But if they can proof the murder itself with certainty, together with a straight link to the victim it does not matter, if the tapas timeline fits or if they can put CB in 5A on may the 3rd or what escape-argumentation the suspect or his solicitor is referring to.

JMO

Snipped for focus. I agree. HCW says he has a piece of evidence that gives high conviction of death AND that CB was responsible. Both things. In which case 5A does not matter, because we know for certain, that piece of evidence does not relate to the 5A timeline. It must be something that comes later.

 

[mrjitty]

Interesting @mrjitty and @SuperdadV8

So basically, you're saying/proposing that how MM disappeared from 5A is not relevant since that's not what this particular (German) investigation, unlike the previous 2 investigations which were abduction-led, is focused on?

That if what the prosecutors have and/or end up with is enough for CB to be successfully charged with her murder, then that's their job done?

And that any remaining 'loose ends' will remain loose ends for someone else to tie up, or not, but they won't be part of or the concern of this particular investigation?

Yes

It is a bit like the McStay case. It doesn't matter what happened before the murder. Only that there was a murder, and CB did it.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I agree. I can see why 5A and all 3rd May-related matters may have no relevance whatsoever to their investigation.

But Wolters has said they have no body or body parts (implicit in which is no DNA, yes?) which takes us back to the question of what exactly it is they actually have and how what they have is, for them, so conclusive.

It can't just be witness accounts. That would be madness. So it has to be witness accounts plus (a) imagery/footage of CB with MM and/or (b) footage of CB referring to MM in absolutely unambiguous terms that leave no doubt as to his role in her death.



Although holiday pics that might feature CB in the vicinity on the day still wouldn't provide anything remotely usable as proof of anything.

I'm not disagreeing with you, btw, just following on from your train of thought and trying to make sense of things.

I am wondering if it is guilty knowledge. So immediately following 10 pm on the 3rd, he said and did things which reveal he knew about the murder.

 

[mrjitty]

Perhaps they have some kind of evidence (confession/statement) indicating that MM left the apartment of her own accord - perhaps to look for her parents - & was snatched from an outside location?

This is the sort of thing I have been wondering about in my Carnival of Mirrors theory

Maybe the real circumstances are very different to what has always been assumed. If i recall the PJ material, I think the last time anyone outside the group claims to have seen MM alive is a period after 5pm? It seems a reasonable assumption she was put to bed after that. But if GM embellished his 9pm check but was actually watching football, when actually was the last time she was seen alive?

 

[mrjitty]

Madeleine McCann cops 'confident' of charging prime suspect Christian B with her disappearance

Just seen this in this mornings paper.

Feels more like they are going to nail him for some other stuff.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

This is the sort of thing I have been wondering about in my Carnival of Mirrors theory

Maybe the real circumstances are very different to what has always been assumed. If i recall the PJ material, I think the last time anyone outside the group claims to have seen MM alive is a period after 5pm? It seems a reasonable assumption she was put to bed after that. But if GM embellished his 9pm check but was actually watching football, when actually was the last time she was seen alive?

From memory, she was put to bed at ~7.30pm. If you are saying that after this time GM and KM either didn’t check the kids before leaving for dinner and that GM outright lied about his check then the window for abduction or wandering off is definitely much larger and started much earlier.

I find it hard to believe that the McCanns would hold on to false statements for all this time knowing they could be hindering the investigation into their lost child.

And even if they have, I feel as though there must be something from the original case file which would support an earlier abduction. Perhaps I’m not thinking straight but how could German LE be able to verify that, for example, the abduction occurred earlier unless it’s in the case file?

 

[Okapi]

Perhaps they have some kind of evidence (confession/statement) indicating that MM left the apartment of her own accord - perhaps to look for her parents - & was snatched from an outside location?

If she left of her own volition, I don't think she'd have gone without Cuddle Cat. Just knowing how attached she was to her teddy.

 

[mrjitty]

From memory, she was put to bed at ~7.30pm. If you are saying that after this time GM and KM either didn’t check the kids before leaving for dinner and that GM outright lied about his check then the window for abduction or wandering off is definitely much larger and started much earlier.

I find it hard to believe that the McCanns would hold on to false statements for all this time knowing they could be hindering the investigation into their lost child.

And even if they have, I feel as though there must be something from the original case file which would support an earlier abduction. Perhaps I’m not thinking straight but how could German LE be able to verify that, for example, the abduction occurred earlier unless it’s in the case file?

For the purposes of the thought experiment, I am saying we cannot tell which part are reliable and which are not, so just place it all to one side.

It's just a way to examine, what might become possible in a context of confused testimony.

Redwood was doing this to a more limited extent.

3 of the Tapas' checks are tightly packed around Tannerman as his window to strike is so small. But once you say Tannerman is a false lead, suddenly all the stuff about moving doors etc does not matter.

 

[Denis R Tandib]

For the purposes of the thought experiment, I am saying we cannot tell which part are reliable and which are not, so just place it all to one side.

It's just a way to examine, what might become possible

I’m not jumping on you exploring possibilities and I think it’s fair that a great deal of the info in the statements is unreliable but some of it is close to what actually happened.

 

[mrjitty]

I’m not jumping on you exploring possibilities and I think it’s fair that a great deal of the info in the statements is unreliable but some of it is close to what actually happened.

Yep.

But which parts ...

 

[Denis R Tandib]

Yep.

But which parts ...

IMO, there is a big difference between unreliable and untruthful. The intention of the T7 and the McCanns was to provide info to assist the investigation. Yes they were half-cut and yes they were trying to be whiter than white, in a dubious circumstance but I think it’s a fair assumption that they didn’t make things up or leave out important information.

 

[Dlk79]

because we know for certain, that piece of evidence does not relate to the 5A timeline. It must be something that comes later.

What do you mean by that exactly?