Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect - #21

[Anxala]

You do if a) you noticed it initially because it seemed somehow odd and b) soon after it becomes linked to a significant event like the abduction of a child near your aunt's house.

No, fair comment. I wasn't meaning to cast doubt on credible witnesses, it was more me eye-rolling at the sensational tabloid reporting of allegedly suspicious looking foreigners (and they were always 'foreigners'!) apparently lurking with intent on every corner of PdL. The tabloids just about stopped short of claiming they wore stripey tops and carried bags marked 'SWAG' over their shoulders.

 

[redplanet]

No as MM had notThat appears to be been abducted at this point. This is in the day leading up to it. X

According to those sources it was simply explained as one of those annoying junk phonecall companies.

 

[Anxala]

No as MM had not been abducted at this point. This is in the day leading up to it. X

Haven't read through the PJ files for a bit but weren't there quite a few deleted phone call logs on both the McC's phones in the lead up to the 3rd?

Yes, here -
P.J. POLICE FILES: MCCANNS DELETED MOBILE CALLS

 

[redplanet]

As there is some vagueness in CT statement about which exact gate am now wondering if she perhaps saw someone operating a baby gate which requires the use of two hands normally , so is chance was one of parents doing that I guess , perhaps checking it was adjusted correctly , maybe at stairs of 5B..?

CT was on the balcony of G. She IMO says it was the gate, on the alleyway, closest to the road. That makes it IMO the gate of B. Unless there is some kind of line of sight complication. Somewhere online there is a good photo of the view looking down on these gates from balcony of K (which is above G) which might help when I find it.

 

[Dlk79]

CT was on the balcony of G. She IMO says it was the gate, on the alleyway, closest to the road. That makes it IMO the gate of B. Unless there is some kind of line of sight complication. Somewhere online there is a good photo of the view looking down on these gates from balcony of K (which is above G) which might help when I find it.

Her statement description is very confusing because you can't see what she's pointing at on the maps/pictures as she talks. But I agree, when you read through it all it sounds like she is talking about the gate to 5B, the Oldfield apartment next to the McCanns.

Does anyone think it is likely the person CT saw was the same person as one of the two blonde men JJ witnessed? The two sightings happen within the same period of time on 3rd May within metres of one another. I believe JJ's was just after 4pm and CT puts hers between 3.30 and 5.30 (and when pressed to guess, settles on around 4.30). In reality they could have been just minutes apart. The furtive behaviour around the gates is similar too, as is the description of their attire and appearance. CT does not see the second man, but he may have already left or gone ahead by then.

I'm just wondering if this was a failed burglary attempt earlier in the day. Testing the patio doors of the apartments while all the residents were out and about, but they were all locked. CT loses sight of the man as he heads to the road by the McCanns apartment so maybe he then checks the door of 5A as well? Then CB comes back later that night to try his luck again, possibly alone?

 

[Trivento]

Her statement description is very confusing because you can't see what she's pointing at on the maps/pictures as she talks. But I agree, when you read through it all it sounds like she is talking about the gate to 5B, the Oldfield apartment next to the McCanns.

Does anyone think it is likely the person CT saw was the same person as one of the two blonde men JJ witnessed? The two sightings happen within the same period of time on 3rd May within metres of one another. I believe JJ's was about 4pm and CT puts hers between 3.30 and 5.30 (and when pressed to guess, settles on around 4.30). In reality they could have been just minutes apart. The furtive behaviour is similar too, as is the description of their attire and appearance. CT does not see the second man, but he may have already left or gone ahead by then.

I'm just wondering if this was a failed burglary attempt earlier in the day. Testing the patio doors of the apartments while all the residents were out and about, but they were all locked. CT loses sight of the man as he heads to the road by the McCanns apartment so possibly he then checks the door of 5A as well? Then CB comes back later that night to try his luck again possibly?

Sounds quite plausible

 

[Dlk79]

One other thing I do find curious is the absence of information as to whether the BKA has spoken to any of the people from the original investigation. By that, I mean the witnesses and people who were in the original PJ files providing potentially useful info. I can't be sure, but I don't think I've seen anything. All the people who confirm they have been spoken to are brand new. Can anyone else recall anyone linked to the original case having been approached or spoken to about CB?

I mean it's possible that they have, but it's just not been reported. But I'm just thinking about the Smith family and the Sun's "credible witness" as examples, neither of whom appears to have been approached by LE to have a look at CB. It was the Press who made them aware of him, just seems odd that if they might potentially recognise CB, why BKA wouldn't have at least asked them first.

Be interested to know which (if any) original witnesses have been spoken to again, might give a clue as to what BKA are looking for when they've seemingly ignored other potential leads (possibly because they don't need them as they already know what happened for that part of the sequence).

 

[tedtink]

All I remember is the paynes knew everyone and brought the group together and JT is the friend of the MCs

I think JT was 'acquainted' with the MC's, that's the impression I got from her rogatory.

4078 “Okay. Right, do you feel there’s anything more to ask about the relationship between the group that we haven’t already covered?”
Reply “Err, no I think just the thing I’d like is the fact I think for something to come on to later, is probably with Kate and Gerry I didn’t know them as well as I knew the rest of the group and I just would like yeah, the rest I’d see a lot whereas Kate and Gerry were more, we’d see them every now and again.”

P.J. POLICE FILES: JANE TANNER ROGATORY INTERVIEW<br>WITH DC FERGUSON

 

[Dlk79]

Another random thought popping into my head regarding HCW's comment here -

Asked if he had any forensic evidence putting Brueckner inside the flat where Madeleine was sleeping, he replied: “I have an answer but we have decided not to divulge this information.

“I can’t say ‘yes’ or ‘no’ as that would bring a thousand other questions and I cannot go into details.
German police 'don't need Madeleine McCann's body to prove suspect murdered her'

The curious thing about this is that HCW has previously said they have no forensic evidence, so saying "no" would not have raised any eyebrows. Particularly when combined with the other comments he has made appealing on the phone call etc, it makes it sound like they have no real proof he was there. I don't think anyone would have expected him to answer anything other than "no" to that question so if he indeed has nothing, why not just say so?

But. When he talked about having no forensic evidence, that was in relation to MM's death. I'm wondering whether they may have in fact uncovered some forensic evidence of CB within 5A, possibly from one of the many hairs that the original investigation failed to attribute to any individual they tested against. And I'm wondering if the reason BKA are so keen to prove CB was on that call in PDL at 8pm is just in case CB tries to claim in his defence case that his DNA was left in 5A in an unrelated burglary on a different date.

After all, he tried to claim the hair in the DM rape got there after stroking her cat in the street. And who knows, that excuse might have been enough to invoke reasonable doubt and get him off if it weren't for it being combined with HB's testimony about witnessing CB raping someone in the exact same manner as what had happened to DM.

Would certainly explain why BKA are so convinced of his involvement, and why HCW feels so comfortable to make his strong assertions, but they still need 'more' evidence to absolutely ensure that conviction.

Just a possibility.

ETA: Another possibility that might explains HCW's response is that BKA 'don't know if there is forensic evidence putting CB in 5A because the Portuguese authorities are not allowing them to test the samples. There were previous reports of friction and unwillingness to hand over samples. Maybe, there is a lot politics going on due to the fact the Germans arw refusing to share their evidence of proof with PJ (a prerequisite to hand over evidence) and so an exhaustive DNA analysis against CB has yet to take place.

 

[redplanet]

Her statement description is very confusing because you can't see what she's pointing at on the maps/pictures as she talks. But I agree, when you read through it all it sounds like she is talking about the gate to 5B, the Oldfield apartment next to the McCanns.

Does anyone think it is likely the person CT saw was the same person as one of the two blonde men JJ witnessed? The two sightings happen within the same period of time on 3rd May within metres of one another. I believe JJ's was just after 4pm and CT puts hers between 3.30 and 5.30 (and when pressed to guess, settles on around 4.30). In reality they could have been just minutes apart. The furtive behaviour around the gates is similar too, as is the description of their attire and appearance. CT does not see the second man, but he may have already left or gone ahead by then.

I'm just wondering if this was a failed burglary attempt earlier in the day. Testing the patio doors of the apartments while all the residents were out and about, but they were all locked. CT loses sight of the man as he heads to the road by the McCanns apartment so maybe he then checks the door of 5A as well? Then CB comes back later that night to try his luck again, possibly alone?

Yes it is an interesting question: was the man seen by CT the same as 1 of the 2 men seen by JJ+AW?
Clothing comparision. CT says a light-blue short-sleeve t-shirt, she couldn't see his trousers or shoes. Some reports have JJ/AW saying both men in bermuda shorts. Recently another report said both in swimming trunks and no tops. (But easily a t-shirt could be removed or put on in between these 2 sightings).

 

[tedtink]

HCW asking for British tourists holiday pics.............
Does anyone here know why many of the T9 holiday pics were grey scale, cropped?
Could the original pics be of any interest now, I wonder?

P.J. POLICE FILES: HOLIDAY PHOTOS LIST

 

[redplanet]

As I said before IMO one can fairly confidently say that in 2007 (at the end of March anyway) CB owned a short sleeve light blue t shirt.

 

[Dlk79]

Recently another report said both in swimming trunks and no tops. (But easily a t-shirt could be removed or put on in between these 2 sightings).

Really? Can you post a link? Or PM if the source is not suitable for the thread. JJ's account of them wearing bermuda shorts didn't lead me to the assumption they were bare chested (though in theory I suppose they could have been).

Personally, my natural assumption from the account is that they would have been wearing t-shirts in addition, otherwise I would have expected it to have been stated explicitly by JJ that they had nothing on apart from their bermuda shorts.

 

[redplanet]

Hmmm HCW asking for British tourists holiday pics.............
Does anyone here know why many of the T9 holiday pics were grey scale?
Could these pics be of any interest now, I wonder?

P.J. POLICE FILES: HOLIDAY PHOTOS LIST

These are monochrome. Literally everything is either black or white, there are no greys. They are photocopies of photos, IMO probably film not digital (BTW is a film camera visible in the PJ photos early 4th May). A few of the original colour photos have been released.

 

[Trivento]

So many questions with this case...another one I’ve always had is if Tannerman was the man JT ...why was he walking in reported direction ?
Was he lost or deliberately taking a long cut to sightsee or something...or was it not him ?

 

[redplanet]

Really? Can you post a link? Or PM if the source is not suitable for the thread. JJ's account of them wearing bermuda shorts didn't lead me to the assumption they were bare chested (though in theory I suppose they could have been).

Personally, my natural assumption from the account is that they would have been wearing t-shirts in addition, otherwise I would have expected it to have been stated explicitly by JJ that they had nothing on apart from their bermuda shorts.

The wording in some of these reports is so ambiguous. Is there a special conconction the journalists drink before jumbling multiple sightings together? Therefore it may be unclear whether this sentence is about the sighting of 2 men by JJ/AW, or about a sighting of 2 men near Habana cafe ???
“That links back to a sighting at 2.30pm where two men who were bare-chested wearing swimming trunks and with blonde hair were seen by two witnesses.”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5668853/german-paedo-stalked-madeleine-mccann-flat/

 

[tedtink]

These are monochrome. Literally everything is either black or white, there are no greys. They are photocopies of photos, IMO probably film not digital (BTW is a film camera visible in the PJ photos early 4th May). A few of the original colour photos have been released.

Very few colour photo's have been released, some were greyscale and others as you say black and white, of which the MM colour pics were produced too, so possibly digital camera.

 

[redplanet]

The wording in some of these reports is so ambiguous. Is there a special conconction the journalists drink before jumbling multiple sightings together? Therefore it may be unclear whether this sentence is about the sighting of 2 men by JJ/AW, or about a sighting of 2 men near Habana cafe ???
“That links back to a sighting at 2.30pm where two men who were bare-chested wearing swimming trunks and with blonde hair were seen by two witnesses.”
https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5668853/german-paedo-stalked-madeleine-mccann-flat/

...My apologies, I was wrong. The 2 men in swimming trunks and no tops were near Habana cafe, seen by a male witness, on the 2nd. Therefore it is a different sighting from the one by JJ+AW.
Hunt for Maddie swimshort duo after Crimewatch e-fit link

 

[Dlk79]

The wording in some of these reports is so ambiguous. Is there a special conconction the journalists drink before jumbling multiple sightings together? Therefore it may be unclear whether this sentence is about the sighting of 2 men by JJ/AW, or about a sighting of 2 men near Habana cafe ???
“That links back to a sighting at 2.30pm where two men who were bare-chested wearing swimming trunks and with blonde hair were seen by two witnesses.”
German paedo 'spotted staking out Maddie's apartment for four days'

They are talking about a different sighting there regarding the bare-chested men, something that happened earlier in the day prior to JJ's sighting. From the article -

The second e-fit is of a man who was seen on the afternoon that Madeleine disappeared at around 4pm.

He was coming from an empty apartment two down, 5C, and he walked off towards the main road.
(My obs: This is the JJ sighting)

"We’re really keen to understand who that was.

“That links back to a sighting at 2.30pm where two men who were bare-chested wearing swimming trunks and with blonde hair were seen by two witnesses.”

This sighting at 2.30pm is from someone else, be interested to know who though and where it was exactly.

 

[redplanet]

Very few colour photo's have been released, some were greyscale and others as you say black and white, of which the MM colour pics were produced too, so possibly not a non digital camera.

Did you see 558-TR ?