Madeleine McCann: German prisoner identified as suspect #29

[Dlk79]

Evidence seems overwhelming to me!

A number of us are following the Morphew no body trial where the evidence is much less

Quite. This is what I find so interesting about the veracity of this case. I've read a bit about the Morphew trial and as you say, the evidence is nowhere near as condemning. Plus there are much more credible objections from the defence about the supposed evidence (and the potential ignorance of other evidence that may support other outcomes).

Obviously the Morphew case is happening in the US and personally I think the evidence threshold in the States for proceeding with such a charge is not as high as that in Germany. "No body" murder charges in Germany are quite rare, and the conviction rate for murder cases brought to trial in Germany is much higher than in the US.

Why I think this case is significant is it shows the power of circumstantial evidence. Plus it gives an indication of how the German Prosecutors build a case and seek to avoid obvious defence arguments. For HCW to publicly accuse CB, I can't help but think the circumstantial evidence and the puzzle pieces are rather compelling. If only he'd tell us what it entails exactly....

I do also think the delays in this case might be a contributory factor to the silence and timelines of the CB case. Not that this case is any sort of 'trial run' for what to expect in any CB indictment, but they will certainly learn from it. If and when charges against CB are announced though, there will be a media storm to deal with. Not something you want while you still have this case to put to bed which deserves an equal amount of attention.

 

[C.greek]

Some might be interested to know that the MM case is not the only murder charge without a body that the Braunschweig Prosecutor's office are currently pursuing.

There are several interesting parallels with this case and the CB/MM case. The Prosecutors launched a public TV appeal for witnesses after identifying their suspect. Similarly, they appealed for details relating to certain vehicles and any sightings of their suspect. The suspect has remained silent throughout, refusing to respond to any police questions. All of the evidence against the suspect is circumstantial. The Prosecutors only released certain details to the public "so as not to jeopardise the investigation" - that's a direct HCW quote about this investigation and exactly what he also said about the CB case.
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excellent analysis and a great find!
I think it would be very much interesting if we could find the public tv appeal for information - what information was actually shared in this case? potentially this knowledge in juxtaposition with the MM case would enable us to hypothesise on the remaining circumstantial evidence they have against CB

just a thought!

 

[Anxala]

Why I think this case is significant is it shows the power of circumstantial evidence. Plus it gives an indication of how the German Prosecutors build a case and seek to avoid obvious defence arguments. For HCW to publicly accuse CB, I can't help but think the circumstantial evidence and the puzzle pieces are rather compelling. If only he'd tell us what it entails exactly....

HCW is on record as saying that CB not alone murdered MM but also took her. As in, took her from 5A, since that's the only reasonable interpretation of 'took' in this context.

So yes, it will be fascinating to see, in time, what the BKA's certainty as far as CB's guilt is driven by.

 

[Dlk79]

Madeleine McCann suspect could escape prosecution over Portugal law

Bit of a "nothing" story and a misleading headline. The statute only applies to the Portuguese authorites, who aren't the ones purusing the charge against CB. It doesn’t affect the Germans charging him after this date, as we've discussed.

 

[misty48]

Madeleine McCann suspect could escape prosecution over Portugal law

Bit of a "nothing" story and a misleading headline. The statute only applies to the Portuguese authorites, who aren't the ones purusing the charge against CB. It doesn’t affect the Germans charging him after this date, as we've discussed.

IMO This is why I think BKA are running the clock down to time their questioning of CB on or after 4th May 2022 when the SoL expires in Portugal. They do not want to give CB's legal team any opportunity whatsoever to appeal to have a potential murder trial held in Portugal, where the crime was committed and associated sentence is more lenient. I think it will also leave the door open for UK police to prosecute any other individuals who may have been involved in abduction/conspiracy to abduct or murder/child sexual abuse because the victim is British.

 

[RichardKimble]

Madeleine McCann suspect could escape prosecution over Portugal law

Bit of a "nothing" story and a misleading headline. The statute only applies to the Portuguese authorites, who aren't the ones purusing the charge against CB. It doesn’t affect the Germans charging him after this date, as we've discussed.

I've asked before and no one seems to have an answer, where is the legal precedent for the Germans to declare a British subject dead in Portugal by the hands of their national.

 

[Davieson]

I've asked before and no one seems to have an answer, where is the legal precedent for the Germans to declare a British subject dead in Portugal by the hands of their national.

Not sure that 'declare' is the right word to use.
The Germans saying that she is dead (in their opinion) is not the same as a 'Declaration of Death' and will have no legal standing in either Portugal or UK.

 

[RichardKimble]

Not sure that 'declare' is the right word to use.
The Germans saying that she is dead (in their opinion) is not the same as a 'Declaration of Death' and will have no legal standing in either Portugal or UK.

If and its a big if, the Germans charge CB with murder then they will be declaring it surely ?

 

[Davieson]

Interesting situation.
Can someone be charged with the murder of a person who hasn't been legally declared dead ?
Does the legal acceptance of death have to precede the charge?
Is presumption of death sufficient ?

How would the McCanns view this? If CB or anyone else was convicted of murder or manslaughter, would they then accept Madeleine was dead ?

 

[Dlk79]

It is not a requirement for someone to be legally declared dead prior to charging someone with their murder. Karsten Manczak hasn't legally been declared deceased. That's part of what the trial is there to establish. Whatever the authorities in Portugal, the UK or Germany "think" about whether MM is dead or not is therefore, a moot point. The Portuguese cannot scupper a German conviction just because they don't agree with their conclusions. And in a few weeks time, they won't have any business to involve themselves at all since their Statute of limitations will have expired.

Should the McCanns wish to declare MM dead, they'd be able to do so now if they wanted, based on the UK's 7 year missing persons rule. From a legal aspect, the fact of her being "officially dead" then applies everywhere, not just in the UK. Interestingly, the Germans probably wouldn't be able to apply the same logic to assume her death at trial. They have a similar rule after 10 years missing but it doesn't apply until the missing person would have reached their 25th birthday. Which therefore means they will have to prove through other means, there is evidence that she is no longer alive. Evidence that HCW says they have.

 

[RichardKimble]

It is not a requirement for someone to be legally declared dead prior to charging someone with their murder. Karsten Manczak hasn't legally been declared deceased. That's part of what the trial is there to establish. Whatever the authorities in Portugal, the UK or Germany "think" about whether MM is dead or not is therefore, a moot point. The Portuguese cannot scupper a German conviction just because they don't agree with their conclusions. And in a few weeks time, they won't have any business to involve themselves at all since their Statute of limitations will have expired.

Should the McCanns wish to declare MM dead, they'd be able to do so now if they wanted, based on the UK's 7 year missing persons rule. From a legal aspect, the fact of her being "officially dead" then applies everywhere, not just in the UK. Interestingly, the Germans probably wouldn't be able to apply the same logic to assume her death at trial. They have a similar rule after 10 years missing but it doesn't apply until the missing person would have reached their 25th birthday. Which therefore means they will have to prove through other means, there is evidence that she is no longer alive. Evidence that HCW says they have.

What if a Portuguese citizen were crucial to any trial, prosecution or defence , would the 15yr rule apply ?

 

[RichardKimble]

Interesting situation.
Can someone be charged with the murder of a person who hasn't been legally declared dead ?
Does the legal acceptance of death have to precede the charge?
Is presumption of death sufficient ?

How would the McCanns view this? If CB or anyone else was convicted of murder or manslaughter, would they then accept Madeleine was dead ?

It would certainly impact on the fund, but thats another story.

 

[Dlk79]

What if a Portuguese citizen were crucial to any trial, prosecution or defence , would the 15yr rule apply ?

The 15 year statute rule just means the Portuguese authorites are not able to prosecute someone for the crime after this date. They would therefore not be able to claim any sort of "priority" to charge CB ahead of the Germans for example if they were to be made aware of the evidence against him. This "could" be a reason why the Germans want to let the statute expire ahead of revealing what other evidence they have. But that's just conjecture.

One thing I noticed with the Manczak case, is that a lot (but not all) of the evidence they had was made public about a month or so before the trial was due to start. Things like the crossbow arrow being found, the fact the suspect bought a crossbow online and had googled what happens when you shoot someone with a crossbow. Also details about the fact he had rented a Fiat 500 which was spotted at the crime scene. All of these things had been kept secret until then while they were investigating. It was only when it was clear the case was going to trial that they released further details.

Another strange fact was that one of the main things the Prosecutors appealed for was a taxi driver who they knew had picked someone up from the Expo centre where the victim's car was dumped. The authorities repeatedly claimed they were still unable to trace this person though, throughout the course of the investigation. Then, when further details were released about a month before the trial, there was still no word on whether they'd found the taxi driver. Then, when the trial started, the taxi driver appeared as a witness. It is still unclear when exactly they managed to find him.

 

[frank-cole]

IMO This is why I think BKA are running the clock down to time their questioning of CB on or after 4th May 2022 when the SoL expires in Portugal. They do not want to give CB's legal team any opportunity whatsoever to appeal to have a potential murder trial held in Portugal, where the crime was committed and associated sentence is more lenient. I think it will also leave the door open for UK police to prosecute any other individuals who may have been involved in abduction/conspiracy to abduct or murder/child sexual abuse because the victim is British.

Good points Misty. Judging by HCW’s comments it seems like they plan to make arrests for the other cases first. I’m assuming that those charges will come in the near future & the arrest in the MM case to come after. It makes sense to wait until the statute of limitations ends, because they can move past any potential PJ baggage & bureaucracy. The tabloid reports that the statute of limitations in Portugal may have an influence on the chances of CB being convicted are completely rubbish. The German’s have primacy & full control of this investigation, I think that’s reflected in the lack interest in this story.
If anything the SOL ending increases the chance of a conviction.
I doubt it’ll happen straight after the SOL ends because there have been no arrests in the other cases. That said they could have decided to prosecute in a different order, or plan to make all the arrests at the same time.

 

[RichardKimble]

It'll be interesting to see what stance OG after May 3rd take, the wording on their web site is having the PJ lead at the moment .

 

[RichardKimble]

The 15 year statute rule just means the Portuguese authorites are not able to prosecute someone for the crime after this date. They would therefore not be able to claim any sort of "priority" to charge CB ahead of the Germans for example if they were to be made aware of the evidence against him. This "could" be a reason why the Germans want to let the statute expire ahead of revealing what other evidence they have. But that's just conjecture.

One thing I noticed with the Manczak case, is that a lot (but not all) of the evidence they had was made public about a month or so before the trial was due to start. Things like the crossbow arrow being found, the fact the suspect bought a crossbow online and had googled what happens when you shoot someone with a crossbow. Also details about the fact he had rented a Fiat 500 which was spotted at the crime scene. All of these things had been kept secret until then while they were investigating. It was only when it was clear the case was going to trial that they released further details.

Another strange fact was that one of the main things the Prosecutors appealed for was a taxi driver who they knew had picked someone up from the Expo centre where the victim's car was dumped. The authorities repeatedly claimed they were still unable to trace this person though, throughout the course of the investigation. Then, when further details were released about a month before the trial, there was still no word on whether they'd found the taxi driver. Then, when the trial started, the taxi driver appeared as a witness. It is still unclear when exactly they managed to find him.

I understand what you're saying but is a Portuguese citizen bound by the SOL in giving evidence in a trial , a British girl alleged to have been murdered in Portugal by a German , surely not after the SOL date any witness's to be heard can only be German ? lets not forget CB's legal team is not averse to appealing to European courts.

 

[Davieson]

It'll be interesting to see what stance OG after May 3rd take, the wording on their web site is having the PJ lead at the moment .

What will Portugal's attitude be after this date?
Will they effectively say 'that's it, we're no longer going to be involved'

 

[RichardKimble]

Limitations are not set in stone it would seem, judging by this it can be suspended which can extend it.So was it suspended in 2008 until the reopening in 2011.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/9-618-0868?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true#:~:text=Under the Civil Code, the,and any periodically renewable benefits.

The Penal Code sets out different types of regimes. Regarding some criminal offences the interested party must submit a complaint within six months as of the date when that party became aware of the illicit facts and who the offenders are. For other criminal offences, criminal proceedings can be initiated regardless of a complaint. In this case, statute of limitation periods can be from one year to 15 years, depending on the penalty provided by the law to the criminal offense in question; these time periods may also be interrupted and suspended, which can extend the applicable statute of limitation periods.

 

[Dlk79]

I understand what you're saying but is a Portuguese citizen bound by the SOL in giving evidence in a trial , a British girl alleged to have been murdered in Portugal by a German , surely not after the SOL date any witness's to be heard can only be German ?

No. Why would it matter where the witnesses were from? As I just explained, all the statute means is that the Portuguese authorites cannot charge anyone for the crime after this date. It has no effect on the Germans or who they want to call as witnesses or even them using evidence that has been compiled by the PJ.

In some rare cases, the statute deadline can be overruled, but this is only in extenuating circumstances. Normally it only happens if a suspect later confesses to the crime for example, or if new DNA forensic evidence (that was unavailable at the time) comes to light. The circumstantial nature of the BKA evidence would be unlikely to qualify.

 

[frank-cole]

Limitations are not set in stone it would seem, judging by this it can be suspended which can extend it.So was it suspended in 2008 until the reopening in 2011.

https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/9-618-0868?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true#:~:text=Under the Civil Code, the,and any periodically renewable benefits.

The Penal Code sets out different types of regimes. Regarding some criminal offences the interested party must submit a complaint within six months as of the date when that party became aware of the illicit facts and who the offenders are. For other criminal offences, criminal proceedings can be initiated regardless of a complaint. In this case, statute of limitation periods can be from one year to 15 years, depending on the penalty provided by the law to the criminal offense in question; these time periods may also be interrupted and suspended, which can extend the applicable statute of limitation periods.

CB, by law, could be prosecuted in either Germany, UK or Portugal
The German’s have primacy in this case & are the only LEA conducting this murder investigation. Being that only the BKA have access to their evidence they won’t need to rely on any other LEA
As has been stated, they’ll prosecute CB in a German court in front of 5 judges, therefore the Portuguese statute of limitations will have zero affect on the outcome of the German case.