Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #16

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So do you think that would have been some time after the plane actually ran out of fuel? gliding? And then when it stopped gliding, it sent the ping?

I'm getting confused I guess with this whole idea of the plane giliding for hundreds of miles even after the fuel is out.

When the plane ran out of fuel, the engine would stop. I think that's what the "partial ping" registered. What else would prompt a ping from 370? The engines were the reason that the pings were being transmitted, by Rolls Royce's design, to gauge engine performance. Some event triggered a "non-routine," i.e., non-hourly out of cycle, ping. When you consider miles traveled, fuel levels, etc., it seems this was the end of the line for the engines.

This is so important because it narrows down when and where the plane may have gone down. It's possible, per the pilots I have listened to, that the 777 could have then glided subsequent to the engines stopping, so they still have to consider gliding capacity and distance. But it still eliminates much of the original search area by fixing the engine shutdown at 8 minutes after the prior ping.

It's a nightmare though, that the currents and winds are adding a huge amount of variability into the search.
 
Just read this:

".....reports that flight MH370 climbed to between 43,000 and 45,000ft shortly after the last voice communication from the cockpit of the plane. An aviation industry source, who wished to remain anonymous, told MailOnline: 'It was tracked flying at this altitude for 23 minutes before descending. Oxygen would have run out in 12 minutes [in a depressurised cabin], rendering the passengers unconscious"

Did we know about the 23 minutes thing? The oxygen masks would have dropped, and while the passengers would not have physically suffered, there are bound to be some who witnessed others passing out. How scary... (IF this is what happened)

If this airplane managed to fly for 23 minutes above 43000' this early in the flight, I would be shocked. The airplane was heavy, full of fuel, and the climb above the operational ceiling of the airplane would have been extremely slow as the engines struggled with the a/c weight and the increasingly less dense air.

23 minutes that high? You would have an extremely unstable airplane, if it still managed to remain flying at all.

The main risk is of an aerodynamic stall - and the correction involves immediately forcing the nose down and applying full power (but engines would have most likely already been at full power to climb that high - extra dangerous). This scenario could, however, account for the sudden drop (stall recovery) and apparent levelling off at 12,000 (you descend as long as it takes to regain control).

I hope this makes sense. :)
 
I agree with everything you've written. Just wondering why males seem more likely than females to commit mass homicide along with their suicide...

Are you suggesting that it's not a gender difference and more likely related to the fact that men are statistically more likely than females to attempt and commit suicide?

I'm wondering if the act of mass homicide/suicide (obliterating as much life as possible) is different than suicide (putting an end to my suffering). If so, is it related to a greater genetic predisposition towards aggression, narcissism (lack of empathy), or hormonal (higher testosterone levels?


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I'm not Ocean, but theories are not that men are more likely to attempt suicide. It is that men choose a more direct and assured method than women when they do choose. These discussions could go on for days though.

It does seem mass suicide/homicide is directed by mostly men. Can't think of a female case right off the top of my head.

To get closer to topic though. I still don't think this plane crash has anything to do with intentional suicidal issues. Could be wrong, but I still think something went awry with the aircraft itself.
 
I agree with everything you've written. Just wondering why males seem more likely than females to commit mass homicide along with their suicide...

Are you suggesting that it's not a gender difference and more likely related to the fact that men are statistically more likely than females to attempt and commit suicide?

I'm wondering if the act of mass homicide/suicide (obliterating as much life as possible) is different than suicide (putting an end to my suffering). If so, is it related to a greater genetic predisposition towards aggression, narcissism (lack of empathy), or hormonal (higher testosterone levels?


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I cant speak of suicide/mass shooters. Most of those male mass shooters seemed to have suffered with valid, documented mental illness.

Now those men who do suicide/murders of their own family members probably are prone to aggression. Although I think the motive when a father kills his children and then himself and when a mother kills her children and then herself are pretty much for the same reasons (motives.) Both parents have a very narcissistic view of themselves thinking the children cant live without the parent who kills. Or done out of jealousy, revenge, by not wanting the other parent to have custody of the child or children.

Since way more men are often the ones that are left to be 'weekend parents' if they are divorced with children, I think they do have pent up aggression and rage. Absolutely.

I don't know about predisposition to being a narcissist. I think both genders can easily be narcissistic. Being narcissistic doesn't mean the narcissist will be prone to violence.

NOW......back on topic.:)
 
Originally Posted by Tulessa
PoirotryInMotion, I would love to read that article, and TIA!
Okay, give me a short bit; hubby wants to watch Person of Interest, and my files have gotten huge...but I'll post some links for you asap.

Tulessa, my apologies...I fell asleep watching TV last night. :eek:

But here's the article link (India Times) and a brief rundown on the Coco Island Airport. In this forum, threads 5, 8, and 9 have posts about it.


THREAD 5 – Little Jedi and momrids6, I believe, started off this discussion (thank you, momrids6 for the map and airport info links!):


History:

The Coco Islands belong to Myanmar (there are 2—one larger, one smaller). The airport at Greater Coco Island, which is part of Myanmar, has a runway that is 1,400 meters long. The 777-200ER needs approx 1320 yds or 1207 meters to land (see Boeing graphic upthread comparing lengths in football fields). Some critics have said it’d be unlikely an airplane could land in this region undetected due to India’s expert military & radar capabilities. But we apparently have also discovered with this incident that India does not operate that radar system 24/7 but on an as-needed basis. (Links/posts in previous threads or you can google it.)

Over the last several years, there have been reports of the Chinese creating military infrastructure there. There have also been reports that the islands, which are too close to the Andamans for India's comfort, have been leased out to China by Myanmar.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/c...w/30063312.cms


Graphics:

Airport info: http://skyvector.com/airport/VYCI/Coco-Island-Airport

(There is a ‘View all airports in Andaman and Nicobar, India’ link at this site, too).

Map: http://goo.gl/maps/LTU60

Google photo of airstrip on Greater Coco Island:



“That arrestingly beautiful piece of land is Greater Coco Island in the Bay of Bengal, a part of India's Andaman & Nicobar Islands union territory. It is one of only a tiny constellation of islands that belongs to Myanmar. Greater Coco has for long been known to be managed by Chinese, with reports over two decades of signal intelligence facilities, maritime bases, a radar facilities (which is, apparently, all but confirmed) and as a general surveillance hub to keep tabs on Indian military activity (which only really began in a big way in 2001 with the setting up of the Andaman & Nicobar Command at Port Blair).
While I was on assignment on the Andaman Islands earlier this month, there was plenty of talk about how the Chinese were expanding Greater Coco island's airstrip into a modern air base. The Google Earth grab above gives you a splendid view of the runway that the Chinese appear to have built (my sources say the base is close to completion).”
http://www.livefistdefence.com/2011/11/chinas-airbase-expands-on-coco-island.html

*If it was ‘almost finished’ in 2011 at the time of this report, it is likely finished, now.

**Not to be confused with “Cocos” Islands, also in the Indian Ocean but way south and belonging to Australia

Map:

 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=509193159192670

Hi guys this is doing the rounds on facebook and some MSM news site....sorry if you have seen it, but this is suppose to be from one of the ships in the last couple of days and I would believe it.......

so can understand why this may take some time to find anything, and how debris can move quite considerably in this type of weather...

I could only watch it for a few seconds and felt seasick!

Apparently it is from here: LPG/C Venere, Hurricane, 19/jan/2013 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Aow2ErSP3dQ
 
I cant speak of suicide/mass shooters. Most of those male mass shooters seemed to have suffered with valid, documented mental illness.



Now those men who do suicide/murders of their own family members probably are prone to aggression. Although I think the motive when a father kills his children and then himself and when a mother kills her children and then herself are pretty much for the same reasons (motives.) Both parents have a very narcissistic view of themselves thinking the children cant live without the parent who kills. Or done out of jealousy, revenge, by not wanting the other parent to have custody of the child or children.



Since way more men are often the ones that are 'weekend parents' if they are divorced with children, I think they do have pent up aggression and rage. Absolutely.



I don't know about predisposition to being a narcissist. I think both genders can easily be narcissistic. Being narcissistic doesn't mean the narcissist will be prone to violence.


I agree that narcissism is seen in both genders. I do, however, think it's usually expressed differently depending on gender. Females seem to direct their contempt inward and males outward.

Psychopathy is more prevalent among certain professionals: lawyers, pilots, politicians, sales people, etc.

Mass shooters suffering from mental illness are usually diagnosed with some sort of psychosis or psychopathy.

I think the combination of aggression and narcissism (lack of empathy) paired with narcissistic injury (wife moves out, mistress problems, political hero jailed, etc.) created the perfect storm in the troubled mind of this pilot.

Maybe males are more likely to commit mass murder/suicide because they are more prone to aggression. Maybe the combination of aggression and narcissism is what sets the stage for homicide in times of extreme stress. Just a hypothesis...





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The cure for hypoxia is oxygen - either applied with a mask or by descending until the air is oxygen-dense enough (typically under 10,000, varies from person to person based slightly on fitness and smoking status). I believe the kiletta 66 pilot descended and then applied oxygen once he was thinking clearly again.

Your brain suffers oxygen deprivation very quickly. I always think of hypoxia as having 6 drinks in 8 seconds. You feel great. You have no idea anything is wrong. No really, I'm fine! And then you do stupid stuff that makes perfect sense to you at the time. And, then you either get oxygen or you die. :(

Interesting that Wikipedia compares hypoxia to altitude sickness. I’ve had altitude sickness before (bad case the first time as I had no idea what was going on and didn’t get treatment right away), but the effects were not quite the same. Had a combination of altitude sickness and hypothermia (over-vigorous exercise 2 miles high in 22˚ weather right after flying in from sea level and eating a full dinner). I did have a thick tongue at first, with uncontrollable shaking and teeth chattering...and then passed out after hubby gave me some alcoholic concoction to try to warm me up. (Not wise with altitude sickness. ;)) Was sick for 3-4 days thinking it was some sort of weird flu. Every time I’d start to feel better, I’d eat, and then desperately want to lie down on the floor (low-oxygen blood going to stomach for digestion). While definitely feeling ‘wrong’ in the head and thick-tongued, I don’t recall talking quite like that video. I’m sure the pilot had a more immediate and worse case, but wonder if the slow talking was also a result of g-forces?

ETA: please forgive my OT posts...I'm trying to catch up from all the posts that were made while I was snoozing. :eek:
 
It is possible, if tricky, to parachute out of a Boeing 777. You can't quite pull a DB Cooper, who jumped out of a far smaller 727. While Cooper's fate is unknown, some hijackers survived similar parachute jumps out of 727s in the early 1970s. At the time, the 727 had aft stairs that could be lowered in-flight, and it was also capable of stable flight at a lower speed than today's Boeings.

As Hatfield and others indicated, to parachute out of a 777, you would first have to de-pressurize the cabin. Then you would have the pilot fly at about 10,000 feet or lower, in a straight line, keeping the speed steady and as slow as possible. Then just open the door and out you go.

The biggest challenge is keeping the aircraft speed low enough to make the jump survivable. The 777's lowest usual speed is when landing with nearly empty fuel tanks, approximately 160mph. It would have to go even faster to fly at 10,000ft when heavy with more fuel. Skydiving planes (much smaller) normally slow to about 90mph for jumpers to exit. If you exit too fast, your body might tumble so wildly that you are never stable enough to open a parachute safely.

Still, it could be done. At an annual event, professionals skydive out of a modified DB Cooper-style 727 going 150mph without incident. And a mentally ill hijacker survived a high-speed exit from the rear door of a depressurized Airbus 330 flying at 6000ft. in 2000, only dying because he used a homemade parachute that did not properly open.

Do I think anyone escaped MH-370 on a parachute? Nah. But it's not impossible.
 
I am not 100 percent sure but I dont think a commercial jet glides after the engines fail. I think it drops very fast because they are not like smaller planes that can actually glide pretty well without engine power.

I think the weight and shape of a commercial jet needs engine thrust to keep it in the air. I think once a total loss of engine power my guess is that it would go into a very steep dive and crash hard if it was at any good altitude.

It would be a good question for our pilot people.

ETA - Now if the pilot knows he was getting ready to lose engines I do think he could use what little power he had left to get in low and put nose up before crashing like sp?-Shully did in East River. A pilot could make it as easy as possible if he wanted to so long as he had power left. But the scenerio where the plane is up at altitude and engines fail is much different. That would be where I think plane would begin to go nose down and fall very fast like a missile. Commercial Jets dont glide well or at all IMO.

Yes, they glide without power.

The pilot can configure the aircraft, allowing for "best glide." You have no power, therefore you can only descend, but the angle at which you keep the nose of the aircraft can control how far you glide. Nose down = faster rate of descent (trying to make an airfield, for example). Nose slightly up = glide for max distance. Nose too far up = stall and lose control.
 
This is being discussed on the Facebook group 'Tomnod Malaysia Airlines' at the moment. Very interesting.

http://www.haveeru.com.mv/news/54178

Interesting, still not sure how they discounted those airplane sightings in the Maldives especially since the people said they just never saw airplanes like that cross over and the timing was right.
"The unknown object found in Baarah in Haa Alif Atoll of the Maldives is "very likely" to be a fire suppression bottle from an aircraft, local aviation experts said on Wednesday.Residents of the island have assumed the object, which was found washed up at the beach on Monday, to be bomb or sea mine, but the Maldives National Defence Force (MNDF) on Wednesday said it was not an explosive device. But the army did not specify the nature of the object."
 
In my mind, this is looking like mass homicide/pilot suicide.

I've read elsewhere that suicide/homicide may be related; different sides of the same thought coin. I'm not sure if that's true.

I have wondered why mass homicide/suicide seems to be mostly committed by males. Aside from a few female religious/political zealots with bombs strapped to their chests, most females who commit suicide take only themselves out or occasionally their kids (which is a horrible!). Males who are sick or distraught seem to be more likely than females to take out total strangers in addition to themselves.

I've wondered if others have noticed this and if this is true, why it is...maybe testosterone or aggression related?




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Interesting article re psychological testing for pilots that seems to be less frequent in western countries, e.g. Australia allows pilots using ant-depressants to continue flying.

Malaysian Air may change its required psychological examinations for pilots following Flight 370’s disappearance, Chief Executive Officer Ahmad Jauhari Yahya said on March 17.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-...how-airlines-gauge-pilots-mental-fitness.html
 
Good thinking about the salt as I didn't add any. But I will google salt concentrations of the sea and see if I can work out how much salt to add. Thanks for pointing that out.

Thought of it b/c I remembered when I went ‘swimming’ in the Dead Sea (highest salt concentration on earth) the presence of salt in water actually affects buoyancy. Not so noticeable in a choppy salt water sea, maybe, but in the Dead Sea, you really can’t sink due to the overabundance of salt. Makes for very fun photo ops, floating on your back in 2 feet of water reading a newspaper, etc.
 
Yes, they glide without power.

The pilot can configure the aircraft, allowing for "best glide." You have no power, therefore you can only descend, but the angle at which you keep the nose of the aircraft can control how far you glide. Nose down = faster rate of descent (trying to make an airfield, for example). Nose slightly up = glide for max distance. Nose too far up = stall and lose control.

Wow...You are right. I corrected my original post at bottom. I should have googled before assuming. Link below has people talking about this same sort of thing and how far jets can glide. If a pilot is helping to control it, they can go pretty far if they have good altitude.

http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/2499076/
 
I have read about a connection between psychopathy and *test* pilots, but not airline pilots. That's a whole different group of people. But I am always interested in learning more.

But let me tell ya, if airline pilots are a psychologically unstable bunch and an event like a spouse leaving can push them to mass murder, airplanes would be falling out of the sky every day of the week.

In fact, the only thing I found unusual about the captain is that he made it to age 53 and was still married to his first wife. They stayed together long enough to raise children to adulthood. That's a rarity in aviation, IMO. ;) and actually points towards stability in my mind.
 
Interesting, still not sure how they discounted those airplane sightings in the Maldives especially since the people said they just never saw airplanes like that cross over and the timing was right.
"The unknown object found in Baarah in Haa Alif Atoll of the Maldives is "very likely" to be a fire suppression bottle from an aircraft, local aviation experts said on Wednesday.Residents of the island have assumed the object, which was found washed up at the beach on Monday, to be bomb or sea mine, but the Maldives National Defence Force (MNDF) on Wednesday said it was not an explosive device. But the army did not specify the nature of the object."

Interesting. The Maldives sightings were discounted because they do not fit with the satellite-ping data interpretation of where the plane was.

The object found on the beach sure looks like a Boeing fire suppression bottle.

If it turns out to be from MH-370, either the plane went down somewhere somewhat near there, or it flew by with such severe cabin structural damage that parts of it were falling off...
 
Hishammuddin Hussein ‏@HishammuddinH2O 3m
They can't be all wrong Comms: Agencies involved incl Inmarsat, AAIB, Chinese CAAC & AAID, NTSB, FAA, Boeing & RollsRoyce.. #MH370

https://twitter.com/HishammuddinH2O
 
Just "googled" aircraft fire suppression bottle...images...sure looks like one on the beach.
 
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