Malaysia airlines plane may have crashed 239 people on board #24

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aa9511 said:
Marlywings, thank you for your informative maps and I TOTALLY AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have thought this very same thing ever since they started showing the curved arcs for the ping-sound search locations.

Someone told me that plane fly curved routes while going over water so as to stay as close to possible landing sites as possible. For example, that's why trans-Atlantic flights curve up towards Greenland instead of just going straight across.

The flight path does EXTREMELY resemble what a commercial-flight plan would be. I am not sure, but I think the curved part for this route would be to put the plane close to Christmas Islands?

What I mean to say is, it does seem like whoever did this entered in an existing commercial-plane flight route, at least starting from after the South turn.

I would love if perhaps some commercial-airline pilots might give us insight into exactly how the GPS on these auto-pilot settings actually works. For example, would they set up an already-existing flight route? Or would they just put in coordinates for their end destination - let's say Perth - and the flight path would automatically be a straight-course flight path, just follow straight line from starting point to ending point?

This is all so confusing!!
Click to expand...

Hi this is my first post. I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this in regard to the curved arc. Remember that on a photo map of a flat earth, the course shown as a straight line does not correspond to a straight line in practice. A curved course over a long distance on a flat map does in fact show a straight line course (steady bearing), because you are forgetting to take into account the curvature of the earth, which is not represented on the map. Curved course as shown would indicate it headed off on a steady bearing, If it is really out there of course. Hope this helps somewhat. I know this information because I have worked worldwide on ships, and plotting courses over long distances follows these principles, like in aviation.
 
twenty11 said:
Hi this is my first post. I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this in regard to the curved arc. Remember that on a photo map of a flat earth, the course shown as a straight line does not correspond to a straight line in practice. A curved course over a long distance on a flat map does in fact show a straight line course (steady bearing), because you are forgetting to take into account the curvature of the earth, which is not represented on the map. Curved course as shown would indicate it headed off on a steady bearing, If it is really out there of course. Hope this helps somewhat. I know this information because I have worked worldwide on ships, and plotting courses over long distances follows these principles, like in aviation.
Click to expand...

Exactly, posters can research Rhumb line vs Great Circle. The shortest line(distance) between two points on a sphere is a great circle arc.

With a sphere and lat/long lines that are spread apart wide at the equator and narrow at they approach the poles it's easy to see why a Great circle route is shorter(you are dissecting those lat/long "lines" at the same angle consistently throughout the length of the trip.

aa9511.....On the question about entering info into the FMS/GPS/Autopilot and whether a point, destination or route. You are correct in all accounts...

In the pre datlink days and still today in many cases the flight plan(route) is given verbally. As pilot, you file a flight plan to your destination using common routing and altitudes. The ATC then decides and tells you to fly "as filed" or they change your plan to suit their criteria for safety, traffic congestion, etc.

When they call you to give you your departure info it comes over the radio fast. It comes in the mnemonic format CRAFT so you know what to expect to hear and in what order....C= Cleared to bla, bla,blah, R= via route Bla, bla, blah or if you're lucky "as filed", A=altitude to ascend to and hold on departure, F=frequency to tune to after departure, and T= Transponder Code to manually set your plane's transponder/ID 4 digit code.

Datalink gives the same format to you without talking on the radio and you enter your plan into the FMS.

So possibly... MAS 370 Cleared to Beijing via xyz departure, Pulip, Khota Bahru, Venli, Odono, Igari to FL 50, expect FL 350 in 5 minutes, 123.9, squawk 4062.

They would enter the info in order to fly a bread crumb trail all the way out to waypoint Igari for example which would leave KL in a slightly more Northerly direction to Khota Bahru nav aide, then a more direct route toward Beijing.
However ATC could have said, cleared direct to Beijing, and they could have set a direct route from KL to Beijing.

So a known navigation aide, nav point, or a lat/long point could be picked to tell the plane where to fly to and a "bread crumb" type blow by blow trail, or as you also mentioned a direct point A to point B trail.
 
Had been chatting with a friend about how much / little information there was, and both of us agreed we didn't have the full picture. And it's possibly best that some information remains classified for all our safety.

However, i wondered how information that had previously been "public" would suddenly become "classified"?

Unsure if this is an error on The Telegraph's part, but it appears that the passenger list they printed on 1st May has 207 passengers - not 227 as we've all been discussing since the aircraft disappeared.
There's 20 people missing - are their details now classified?

I'm going to try & find the full list & see if i can work out who's missing.
Apologies if this has already been discussed, i just get quite curious about teeny details like this.

Here's the article i refer to. Is msm so should be ok.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ysia-Airlines-releases-report-into-MH370.html
 
MH370 ‘had to have human interference’
May 5, 2014
A senior Boeing 777 captain says human input was essential for the flight to end in the Indian Ocea

PERTH: The disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 could have only involved human input, according to two aviation experts.

A senior Boeing 777 captain and a former crash investigator agreed that given the information outlined in the preliminary report issued late last week, “human input was essential” for the MH370 to end its flight in the Indian Ocean.

“We are not dealing with an out-of-control plane – it is impossible for the Boeing 777 to fly this course by itself,” the West Australian newspaper quoted the the captain as saying.
The plane’s flight path shows multiple course changes and altitude changes, according to Malaysian authorities.

“To change course requires the pilot to either disengage the flight management computer and dial in a new heading to the autopilot/flight director or fly manually,” the captain said.

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2014/05/05/mh370-had-to-have-human-interference/
 
Momoffourboys said:
MH370 ‘had to have human interference’
May 5, 2014
A senior Boeing 777 captain says human input was essential for the flight to end in the Indian Ocea

PERTH: The disappearance of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH370 could have only involved human input, according to two aviation experts.

A senior Boeing 777 captain and a former crash investigator agreed that given the information outlined in the preliminary report issued late last week, “human input was essential” for the MH370 to end its flight in the Indian Ocean.

“We are not dealing with an out-of-control plane – it is impossible for the Boeing 777 to fly this course by itself,” the West Australian newspaper quoted the the captain as saying.
The plane’s flight path shows multiple course changes and altitude changes, according to Malaysian authorities.

“To change course requires the pilot to either disengage the flight management computer and dial in a new heading to the autopilot/flight director or fly manually,” the captain said.

http://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/nation/2014/05/05/mh370-had-to-have-human-interference/
Click to expand...

I agree completely. For an airplane to go from a stable flight(straight and level) to another altitude and enter stable flight (straight and level flight) or to bank and return to stable flight, takes some form of initial human involvement. As mentioned either manual flight or entry to a flight management system with autopilot, etc.

I do know I've been painted by primary radar w/o my transponder on and ATC had my altitude incorrect but only by a few feet.(so I'm not sure I buy a theory I read early on that the altitude changes indicated on radar by MAS 370 were simply errors/inaccuracies in the radar returns.)

I would like to see the data from the radar track to try and determine the actual climb rate, descent rate and angle of bank during the early stages of flight.
 
Archangel7 said:
I agree completely. For an airplane to go from a stable flight(straight and level) to another altitude and enter stable flight (straight and level flight) or to bank and return to stable flight, takes some form of initial human involvement. As mentioned either manual flight or entry to a flight management system with autopilot, etc.

I do know I've been painted by primary radar w/o my transponder on and ATC had my altitude incorrect but only by a few feet.(so I'm not sure I buy a theory I read early on that the altitude changes indicated on radar by MAS 370 were simply errors/inaccuracies in the radar returns.)

I would like to see the data from the radar track to try and determine the actual climb rate, descent rate and angle of bank during the early stages of flight.
Click to expand...

BBM

Judging from the past sixty days...I doubt that will ever happen.
 
MummaP said:
Had been chatting with a friend about how much / little information there was, and both of us agreed we didn't have the full picture. And it's possibly best that some information remains classified for all our safety.

However, i wondered how information that had previously been "public" would suddenly become "classified"?

Unsure if this is an error on The Telegraph's part, but it appears that the passenger list they printed on 1st May has 207 passengers - not 227 as we've all been discussing since the aircraft disappeared.
There's 20 people missing - are their details now classified?

I'm going to try & find the full list & see if i can work out who's missing.
Apologies if this has already been discussed, i just get quite curious about teeny details like this.

Here's the article i refer to. Is msm so should be ok.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ysia-Airlines-releases-report-into-MH370.html
Click to expand...

Could the twenty missing names be those of the group that were from the microchip company - sorry, the company name just left me? :blushing: If so, what is the reason they have been left off? IIRC they were identified soon after the plane went missing and their names should be able to be found.
 
Oops missed the newb whilst scrolling through (I think that is called "MH370 glaze", which may well be a bonafide disease by the time this is all over with....)

Anyhoo, :welcome5: Twenty11!
 
1&2&3 said:
Could the twenty missing names be those of the group that were from the microchip company - sorry, the company name just left me? :blushing: If so, what is the reason they have been left off? IIRC they were identified soon after the plane went missing and their names should be able to be found.
Click to expand...


According to Wikipedia in reg Malaysia Airlines Flight 370:

Passengers, Total: 227
Crew, Total: 12

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...nto-MH370.html

Compare with:
malaysiaairlines.com PDF Passenger Manifest PDF Published 8 March 2014 according to PDF:
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/con...Airlines Flight MH 370 Passenger Manifest.pdf


The missing passengers included employees from Freescale Semiconductor, a Texas-based technology firm:
"We have been moved by the strong outpouring of sympathy from fellow employees, partners, customers and friends of Freescale.
We appreciate your support and ask that you continue to keep everyone on board Flight MH370 in your thoughts.
Thank you from the Freescale Family."
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/overview.jsp?code=MSSGFROMFSL
 
1&2&3 said:
Could the twenty missing names be those of the group that were from the microchip company - sorry, the company name just left me? :blushing: If so, what is the reason they have been left off? IIRC they were identified soon after the plane went missing and their names should be able to be found.
Click to expand...

Possibly.
But all names were originally made public, so why would the suddenly be not public?
 
marlywings said:
Maybe you meant Cocos Islands?? as the curve goes along very close to there.

Christmas Island is a long way further north east & nowhere near the arc. If it had gone close to Christmas Island well I'd be thinking something along the lines of hijacking over asylum seeker issues. This is going off topic but for anyone not familiar with that island, up until last year asylum seekers in the 1,000s were arriving by boat from countries such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq & taken to Christmas Island to have their refugee status assessed before either being sent home or sent to Australia. That all changed when a new government was elected Sept last year. The numbers of arrivals was dramatically cut when the gov decided to send them to Papua New Guinea or sent back home.

Another map of the arc. I've enlarged it a little for clarity. I wouldn't take too much notice of the inset, as whoever has added that has put Perth half way up the coast of West Australia.

2cxb8ch.jpg


http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...eases-part-of-flight-mh370-preliminary-report
Click to expand...

Thanks.

One thing re: speeds, they have drawn up different arcs depending on different speeds the plane might have been travelling at - such as 320, 350, 375, etc. But then I also see strange speed settings like 323, 332, stuff like that. I guess my question would be - does auto-pilot come at pre-set speed intervals on the 777? like, for example, you can choose b/w intervals of 25?

I guess I find it odd that why would someone set the speed on auto-pilot at something like 323? YKWIM?

And btw, now they they are apparently "going back to the drawing board" and going over all of their available data and calculations, I still think they should at least try the Test Plane theory which I discussed a while back. Have a real 777 go up and follow exact KNOWN points and altitudes and speeds up until the last waypoint. Check how much fuel is left in the plane. Then calculate various flight arcs using that reading of fuel along with the Inmarsat satellite ping info. and plug in variou speeds.

Then have Test Plane try a few of those routes (for the beginning couple of hours of the flight path), and compare those Inmarsat satellite ping readings from the Test Plane to the Inmarsat satellite pings readings from MH370. Adjust flight paths accordingly until they get a narrow search area.

JMO.

You now, since they are going back to the drawing board and all. I guess we are all free to "re-submit" all our earlier theories now.
 
twenty11 said:
Hi this is my first post. I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this in regard to the curved arc. Remember that on a photo map of a flat earth, the course shown as a straight line does not correspond to a straight line in practice. A curved course over a long distance on a flat map does in fact show a straight line course (steady bearing), because you are forgetting to take into account the curvature of the earth, which is not represented on the map. Curved course as shown would indicate it headed off on a steady bearing, If it is really out there of course. Hope this helps somewhat. I know this information because I have worked worldwide on ships, and plotting courses over long distances follows these principles, like in aviation.
Click to expand...

WELCOME!!!!!!!!

:welcome4:

This is like one of those things where I just go, "oh, yeah, DUH!" (trust me, I have LOTS of those throughout the day).

Thank you for shedding light on this matter and IMO you have answered the "straight-line, curved line" questions we have had on here!

I just have to really believe they can't be very far off, b/c what about those pinging sounds? I mean, those must have been from the black box, right? That would be a very cruel twist if those weren't actually from the black box. So I keep thinking to myself, it's there, somewhere in that area, it's just a matter of stumbling across it.
 
Archangel7 said:
Exactly, posters can research Rhumb line vs Great Circle. The shortest line(distance) between two points on a sphere is a great circle arc.

With a sphere and lat/long lines that are spread apart wide at the equator and narrow at they approach the poles it's easy to see why a Great circle route is shorter(you are dissecting those lat/long "lines" at the same angle consistently throughout the length of the trip.

aa9511.....On the question about entering info into the FMS/GPS/Autopilot and whether a point, destination or route. You are correct in all accounts...

In the pre datlink days and still today in many cases the flight plan(route) is given verbally. As pilot, you file a flight plan to your destination using common routing and altitudes. The ATC then decides and tells you to fly "as filed" or they change your plan to suit their criteria for safety, traffic congestion, etc.

When they call you to give you your departure info it comes over the radio fast. It comes in the mnemonic format CRAFT so you know what to expect to hear and in what order....C= Cleared to bla, bla,blah, R= via route Bla, bla, blah or if you're lucky "as filed", A=altitude to ascend to and hold on departure, F=frequency to tune to after departure, and T= Transponder Code to manually set your plane's transponder/ID 4 digit code.

Datalink gives the same format to you without talking on the radio and you enter your plan into the FMS.

So possibly... MAS 370 Cleared to Beijing via xyz departure, Pulip, Khota Bahru, Venli, Odono, Igari to FL 50, expect FL 350 in 5 minutes, 123.9, squawk 4062.

They would enter the info in order to fly a bread crumb trail all the way out to waypoint Igari for example which would leave KL in a slightly more Northerly direction to Khota Bahru nav aide, then a more direct route toward Beijing.
However ATC could have said, cleared direct to Beijing, and they could have set a direct route from KL to Beijing.

So a known navigation aide, nav point, or a lat/long point could be picked to tell the plane where to fly to and a "bread crumb" type blow by blow trail, or as you also mentioned a direct point A to point B trail.
Click to expand...

Wow thanks! Very helpful and useful to have real pilots/sea-men and sea-women/experts on this thread! Thank you for giving us insight!

I would think the air space would be relatively clear going from KL to Perth, so the navigation aide would correspond pretty well with the lat/long point, IIUC.

Maybe it is really as "simple" as just the pilot wanted to "play" with the plane and have free reign of the plane for a "joyride."

But then I would think he would have done that when he was much older and did not have so much time left. YKWIM?
 
aa9511 said:
Wow thanks! Very helpful and useful to have real pilots/sea-men and sea-women/experts on this thread! Thank you for giving us insight!

I would think the air space would be relatively clear going from KL to Perth, so the navigation aide would correspond pretty well with the lat/long point, IIUC.

Maybe it is really as "simple" as just the pilot wanted to "play" with the plane and have free reign of the plane for a "joyride."

But then I would think he would have done that when he was much older and did not have so much time left. YKWIM?
Click to expand...

BBM

Just to put the bolded part in perspective......It is a serious contravention/infraction to deviate course or altitude without prior ATC approval without declaring an emergency or as mentioned, receiving ATC approval first.
 
aa9511 said:
Wow thanks! Very helpful and useful to have real pilots/sea-men and sea-women/experts on this thread! Thank you for giving us insight!

I would think the air space would be relatively clear going from KL to Perth, so the navigation aide would correspond pretty well with the lat/long point, IIUC.

Maybe it is really as "simple" as just the pilot wanted to "play" with the plane and have free reign of the plane for a "joyride."

But then I would think he would have done that when he was much older and did not have so much time left. YKWIM?
Click to expand...

BBM.
The thing with that though, is the pilot had many years (and hours) of flying. He wasn't a new pilot. Why would he want to take a plane full of passengers for a joyride? Is that not what his FS was for?
 
SouthAussie said:
I don’t think there are any missing names.

It looks like the list in the MSM article linked in MummaP’s post is just the 227 passengers. The other 12 people are the crew, and that separate list is on the last page of this passenger manifest that Insp.Gadget posted above.

http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/con...Airlines Flight MH 370 Passenger Manifest.pdf
Click to expand...

The Telegraph article published a 4 page list of passengers - i have counted & there's 207 listed.
I understood there to be 227 passengers on board - it made me curious & so i asked the question as above.

The original passenger lists are still available to find, and there are passengers missing. And The Telegraph article appears to be in alphabetical order so unsure it's simply a page missing.
 
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