Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[Mrs G Norris]

John Kerry says US has 'enormous amounts of evidence' linking Russia with MH17 disaster

While stopping short of placing direct blame on Moscow for the disaster, Mr Kerry put forth the most pointed and detailed US accusations so far that Russia provided pro-Moscow insurgents with the sophisticated anti-aircraft systems used to down the aircraft.

He said the US had seen supplies moving into Ukraine from Russia in the past month, including a 150-vehicle convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers given to the separatists.

Work at the crash site. Photo: Reuters

​

The US had also intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian radar-guided SA11 missile system it blames for the downing of the Boeing 777, he said.

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia."
......

"There's enormous amount of evidence, even more evidence that I just documented, that points to the involvement of Russia in providing these systems, training the people on them," Mr Kerry said.

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/world/john-ke...17-disaster-20140721-zv4mz.html#ixzz384jtJ2og

 

[CARIIS]

Broadly speaking

nternational flights are governed by the Montreal Convention, an international air carrier treaty adopted in 1999 by the International Civil Aviation Organization, a United Nations agency. If the airline is found at fault for an accident, the Montreal Convention stipulates that it is liable for up to 113,100 special "drawing rights" per passenger, a value established by the International Monetary Fund. The value changes regularly, and for now equals about $170,000 per passenger in the USA.


If the accidnet if sormalleyd declared as an act of terrirsim a whole ohter bunch of compensation packages are mixed in the mix (more$)

The Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA) is a United States federal law signed into law by President George W. Bush on November 26, 2002. The Act created a federal "backstop" for insurance claims related to acts of terrorism. The Act "provides for a transparent system of shared public and private compensation for insured losses resulting from acts of terrorism.


The term “act of terrorism” is defined in the act as: any act certified by the Secretary of Treasury, in concurrence with the Secretary of State and Attorney General, to be an act that is dangerous to human life, property, or infrastructure and to have resulted in damage within the U.S. (or outside the U.S. in the case of a U.S.-flagged vessel, aircraft or premises of a U.S. mission). It must be committed as part of an effort to coerce U.S. civilians or to influence either policy or conduct of the U.S. Government through coercion. The definition includes both foreign and domestic terrorists. The Secretary may not delegate this certification authority. The Secretary's decision to either certify or not certify an act of terrorism is not subject to judicial review.[SUP][8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_Risk_Insurance_Act[/SUP]
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/08/asiana-airlines-crash-lawsuit/2500067/

 

[SilkySifaka]

Pictures of the 80 children http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...amily-snapshots-innocent-victims-tragedy.html

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Putin's MH17 statement in full: http://kremlin.ru/transcripts/46262

Translation (from Google Translate):

VLADIMIR PUTIN: In connection with the terrible tragic events that occurred in the skies over the Donets, I would like to say once again how we in Russia relates to events that are taking place in Ukraine.

We have repeatedly called on all warring parties to immediately stop the bloodshed and to sit down at the negotiating table. We can confidently say that if June 28 fighting in eastern Ukraine were not renewed, then this tragedy would not have happened for sure.

However, no one should not have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide but unite people. It is necessary that all the people who are responsible for the situation in the region improved their responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster.

Everything must be done to ensure the safety of international experts on the scene. Today there are already working representatives of Donbass, Donetsk, representatives of Ministry of Ukraine, experts Malaysia. But this is not enough.

Need to work at the crash site a full team of experts under the auspices of ICAO, the corresponding international commission. We must do everything to ensure its full and absolute security, ensure necessary for its operation humanitarian corridors.

For its part, Russia will do all that we can to the conflict in eastern Ukraine moved from today's military phase to discuss the negotiating table exclusively peaceful and diplomatic means.

July 21, 2014 01:40 Moscow region, Novo-Ogaryovo

 

[2rose]

The Terrorism Risk Insurance Act (TRIA) is a United States federal law signed into law by President George W. Bush on November 26, 2002. The Act created a federal "backstop" for insurance claims related to acts of terrorism. The Act "provides for a transparent system of shared public and private compensation for insured losses resulting from acts of terrorism.

So then it sounds like this American TRIA is going to only apply
to the ONE American on board MH17 who held dual citizenship.

 

[SilkySifaka]

I am also reading a lot of the updates from that site. They appear to be on top of all the news, and have fantastic photos. To answer the question in the article title, I would say "yes" it is.

MOO

Some consider tabloidish but i have noticed over the years they have changed a lot and now are my go to for pictures (even of a murder in a house in canada, they have better than our news-more willing to pay i think) and updates on big stories.They make mistakes but so do other MSM and its night and day from what it was years ago apart from being a very conservative paper whose political alliance is clear, i just ignore those stories

 

[SilkySifaka]

Putin's MH17 statement in full: http://kremlin.ru/transcripts/46262

Translation (from Google Translate):

VLADIMIR PUTIN: In connection with the terrible tragic events that occurred in the skies over the Donets, I would like to say once again how we in Russia relates to events that are taking place in Ukraine.

We have repeatedly called on all warring parties to immediately stop the bloodshed and to sit down at the negotiating table. We can confidently say that if June 28 fighting in eastern Ukraine were not renewed, then this tragedy would not have happened for sure.

However, no one should not have the right to use this tragedy to achieve selfish political objectives. Such events should not divide but unite people. It is necessary that all the people who are responsible for the situation in the region improved their responsibility to their own people and to the peoples of those countries whose representatives have been victims of this disaster.

Everything must be done to ensure the safety of international experts on the scene. Today there are already working representatives of Donbass, Donetsk, representatives of Ministry of Ukraine, experts Malaysia. But this is not enough.

Need to work at the crash site a full team of experts under the auspices of ICAO, the corresponding international commission. We must do everything to ensure its full and absolute security, ensure necessary for its operation humanitarian corridors.

For its part, Russia will do all that we can to the conflict in eastern Ukraine moved from today's military phase to discuss the negotiating table exclusively peaceful and diplomatic means.

July 21, 2014 01:40 Moscow region, Novo-Ogaryovo

this is CYA talk, more sanctions need to be approved, he just repeated it was the Ukraines fault...

 

[jslk]

BBC breakfast news just now reporting that 251 bodies recovered. But they're still not sure where they've gone.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[redheadedgal]

re: terrorism: UN International Legal Instruments to "prevent terrorist acts":

Two more legal instruments were added in 2010: the 2010 Convention on the Suppression of Unlawful Acts Relating to International Civil Aviation and the 2010 Protocol Supplementary to the Convention for the Suppression of Unlawful Seizure of Aircraft. These treaties further criminalize the act of using civil aircraft as a weapon, and of using dangerous materials to attack aircraft or other targets on the ground. The unlawful transport of biological, chemical and nuclear weapons and their related material becomes punishable under the treaties. Moreover, directors and organizers of attacks against aircraft and airports will have no safe haven. Making a threat against civil aviation may also trigger criminal liability.

http://www.un.org/en/terrorism/instruments.shtml

http://www.un.org/en/members/: russia, ukraine


good info on compensation: Framework principles for securing the human rights of victims of terrorism, A/HRC/20/14

http://www.un.org/victimsofterrorism/en/documents

 

[redheadedgal]

Its insane. Totally insane. If one of relatives wre lying out there being carelessly treated by drunken idiots, I would lose my mind.

These people have the same backwards and irrational, arbitrary, and evil mindset of any thuggish warlords from third world countries. They are no different than Somalian pirates, IMO.

Im so horrified and pissed right now.

OT: gitana, your presence is requested in the rebel heart thread, if you have time. thanks.

 

[SouthAussie]

Wouldn't that be for insurance reasons. US insurance companies have a large market internationally. This would insure the families get their money. jmo

Exactly right. I heard on radio news on the way home today that Abbott may declare this an act of terrorism to enable compensation payments to the families of the victims (in addition to any other assistance from the govt, such as getting their loved ones bodies home).


"Earlier, the Australian prime minister Tony Abbott was asked whether the government would designate the shooting down of MH17 a terrorist act. That's a significant question because if he does so, the victims of the attack, and potentially their families, would be eligible for up to $75,000 in compensation.

The scheme was one of the first acts of Australia's coalition government after it came to power in September 2013."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ternational-access-to-crash-site-live-updates

 

[lawstudent]

Terrorism is defined largely by intent to terrorize - not to accidentally shoot a civilian airliner. The overuse of the term is problematic in a number of ways, but that's not for this thread. There probably won't be one neat term for this - it seems they are generally remembered as "incidents" or "tragedies." I suppose they could be considered civilian casualties, but is there even an official war going on? Terminology aside, just awful - at least I do think that it will make people more careful in the future, since 'conflicts' by 'rebels' are now much more common than official wars, and there's a lot more room for confusion.

 

[SouthAussie]

I was happy to hear that we are sending Angus Houston, one of our very best diplomatic persons imo, to Ukraine to oversea Australian recovery operations there. He is also a most highly respected retired Defence Force Chief here in Australia .. lots of experience, lots of respect, a thoroughly nice man who knows his stuff and relates well to others.


"Mr Houston, a highly respected former Australian defence chief who has been the face of the search for the missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft, will serve in Ukraine as Mr Abbott's special envoy.

A statement from the MH370 search team said Mr Houston will remain in Ukraine "as long as necessary to complete the task". He will lead the effort to recover, identify and repatriate Australians killed in the MH17 crash, which was carrying 28 Australian citizens and eight residents.

"Air Chief Marshal Houston will work to ensure a comprehensive investigation into the MH17 crash is swiftly under way," a statement said."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-MH370-search-to-oversee-recovery-effort.html

 

[redheadedgal]

To whom it may concern, the reporter Simon Cullen is with the Australian Broadcasting Company. He is reporting on the Australian government. It has nothing to do with the United States.

he lists his work as "ABC news"... so i doubt the poster you refer to was trying to incorrectly associate this reporter w/ the US namesake.

https://twitter.com/Simon_Cullen

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Who are the Russian rebel separatists? 10 questions answered about the history of Ukraine and the tragedy of MH17

WE’VE all read about the horror of the crash site in Ukraine, but who are the people who shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17?

Here are 10 points to help you get your head around the origins of the tragedy.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...-tragedy-of-mh17/story-fnizu68q-1226996215883

Watching Sky News .. discussion about resolution going towards UN ..

 

[SouthAussie]

Who are the Russian rebel separatists? 10 questions answered about the history of Ukraine and the tragedy of MH17

WE’VE all read about the horror of the crash site in Ukraine, but who are the people who shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17?

Here are 10 points to help you get your head around the origins of the tragedy.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...-tragedy-of-mh17/story-fnizu68q-1226996215883

Watching Sky News .. discussion about resolution going towards UN ..

Good article ... point 10 cleared some things up for me (sort of ).


"Even if they thought the plane was a military object, as communications transcripts suggest, the separatists could still be found guilty in the International Court of Justice under a rule that says combatants must take all reasonable precautions to verify that a target is a military one before they attack. It appears the perpetrators failed to do this, though just who brings them to justice, or when, is for now an unanswerable question."

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I know, but then I think of all the times civilians have been targeted without anyone facing justice .. I'm not holding out hope unless Putin sacrifices someone for the sake of the 'greater good' .. ie his own interests.

JMO

 

[BJsleuth]

Putin SAYS Russia will do everything possible to end Ukraine conflict .. but sadly fail eventually .. those darn pesky rebels have a mind of their own.

Yes Mrs G! I'll believe it when I see it!

 

[SouthAussie]

As well as Angus Houston ....

"The Australian Government has deployed 45 officials to assist, including 20 personnel from the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, 20 Australian Federal Police Officers, two Australian Transport Safety Bureau investigators and three Defence officials.

The Australian Ambassador in Warsaw (who is accredited to Ukraine), a regional consular officer and embassy officials from Moscow, London and Warsaw, have also arrived in Kiev as part of Australia’s response team.

Other specialist teams are on standby for immediate deployment when access to the site is secured. A C17 military transport aircraft is on standby to depart for Ukraine."

http://www.businessinsider.com.au/t...us-houston-to-ukraine-as-special-envoy-2014-7

 

[SouthAussie]

"A Malaysian team of 133 officials and experts, comprising search and recovery personnel, forensics experts, technical and medical experts arrived in Kiev Saturday.

An international investigation team on the MH17 incident has been established, including officials from the Netherlands, Malaysia, Britain and the US."

http://www.firstpost.com/world/inve...-case-to-examine-mh17-crash-site-1627203.html