Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[kimi_SFC]

What do you think the bodies would have shown, had them been collected and returned earlier?

I don't understand what people think the bodies would tell us about the circumstances of the crash. The consensus is that a BUK missile hit the plane, this can be verified by the wreckage itself, not the bodies. The bodies won't tell us anything about who hit the plane and whether it was on purpose or a mistake. So I'm wondering what evidence they would give us.

With all due respect, I've seen it posted that aviation and weapons experts might be able to deduce the location of the missile strike based on the injuries of the passengers (relative to their seating location). I posted a tweet and twitpic about this subject upthread.

IMO, the longer the victims are not in the custody of authorities who have the ability to perform the proper forensic analysis, all evidence is subject to deterioration, contamination, tampering, etc.

As long as there is any dispute as to who fired what (and although we may have a clear idea here at WS, the world as a whole is not in agreement), the evidence is the only thing that is irrefutable.

Sadly, I worry these delays may be happening for a reason. If that's the case, it bears the questions: Why? What is there to hide? And who has the motive to do so?

:moo:


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[Dr. Know?]

max seddon ‏@maxseddon · 29s
Malaysians all leave room with Borodai and return to their half-eaten dinners. None seem to have the black boxes on them. #MH17

https://twitter.com/maxseddon

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @MilesDoran (CBS News) - 40m


Satellite images of #MH17 crash site:

http://t.co/hFMmMLqURo

http://twitter.com/MilesDoran/status/491293549414322176




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[bettybaby00]

Russia Claims A Ukrainian Su-25 Aircraft Was Tailing MH17 - But It Can't Fly That High

15:08 (GMT)

according to the manufacturer of the Su-25, Sukhoi, the maximum altitude of the Su-25 carrying no external ordnance and stores is only 7 kilometers (7000 meters, 23,000 feet). MH17 was flying at 10,000 meters, about 33,000 feet. By this logic, even if the Su-25 was flying directly under MH17 it would be at least 3 kilometers away.

http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-154-heavy-fighting-in-donetsk/#3484

But if they were being "tailed," wouldn't the pilot have relayed that info to air traffic control? Additionally, wouldn't have there been evidence of a mid-flight change in the flight plan?

 

[Isabelle]

max seddon ‏@maxseddon · 29s
Malaysians all leave room with Borodai and return to their half-eaten dinners. None seem to have the black boxes on them. #MH17

https://twitter.com/maxseddon

Bet those black boxes never appear. What will happen then?!

 

[zwiebel]

Any minute now...

'The Guardian's Shaun Walker is in Donetsk, where the MH17 black boxes are due to be handed over from separatists to the Malaysian delegation imminently.

He reports that armed gunmen have arrived in the lobby ahead of Alexander Borodai, the rebel leader, who is due to meet the Malaysian experts.'

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/mh17-disaster-ukraine-obama-live-updates

 

[Dr. Know?]

But if they were being "tailed," wouldn't the pilot have relayed that info to air traffic control? Additionally, wouldn't have there been evidence of a mid-flight change in the flight plan?

I've also read that Ukraine had no military flights in the air at that time. I'll wait for the full investigation...

 

[zwiebel]

Now this english journalist's been told handover will be 10pm at rebel's HQ instead of hotel! So he's asking someone else if they know....

https://mobile.twitter.com/bishopk

 

[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @WSJ - 20m

What is a Buk missile?
http://t.co/bLEnyJOEWH #MH17
http://t.co/O0PqLMQdmt

http://twitter.com/WSJ/status/491294835169824768



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[Little Jedi]

Slovakian TV/Media Reports

'Forensic experts examined the bodies from the crash of the aircraft transferred to refrigerated wagons-in Torez.'

" I am impressed with the work that is done here," said Van Vielt after visiting the scene of the accident.'

" Dutch experts say that the bodies were disposed of in an appropriate manner, "
said a spokeswoman for the OSCE Oleška, speaking of the bodies from the crash were transported in wagons Temperature in Torez.'


* Dnevnik*
(English: The Daily) is a daily newspaper published in Ljubljana, Slovenia. It was first issued in June 1951

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnevnik_(Slovenia)

English Translation (Google) :

http://tinyurl.com/q432pth

 

[Isabelle]

Now this english journalist's been told handover will be 10pm at rebel's HQ instead of hotel! So he's asking someone else if they know....

https://mobile.twitter.com/bishopk

I don't like game playing! This is what they are doing. I pray no harm comes to the Malay official.

 

[zwiebel]

Here's another twitter from a journo who is actually there but isn't sure what's going on with boxes.

https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunwalker7/tweets

 

[Dr. Know?]

Paul Sonne ‏@PaulSonne · 3m
So is the black box handover going to happen in the lobby of my hotel? This is all turning out to be somewhat convenient if so. #MH17

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne

 

[zwiebel]

I'm expecting the Australian UN resolution request will be passed anytime now, in NY.

'SYDNEY-Australian Foreign Minister Julie Bishop arrived in New York on Monday to push for a tough United Nations resolution calling for immediate access to the MH17 crash site and an independent international investigation into the missile strike that brought down the Malaysian Airlines flight.'

http://www.nation.com.pk/international/21-Jul-2014/australian-fm-pushes-for-un-resolution-on-mh17

 

[zwiebel]

Paul Sonne ‏@PaulSonne · 3m
So is the black box handover going to happen in the lobby of my hotel? This is all turning out to be somewhat convenient if so. #MH17

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne

I just can't help feeling if it does happen, some poor journo who has been waiting hours, probably hungry themselves, will find themselves in the wrong place.

 

[gia2]

I don't care how poor they are, to steal from deceased victims who were blown from the sky and and the remains stuck in a war zone and stolen from is almost as bad as the murderer's themselves. Shame on them.

Of course there is no justification to steal from the victims, but we do not know that anyone has at this point, with certainty. It is very difficult to look at photographs objectively and not base our opinion of what is going on when we've been reading about looting and disrespectful treatment of the bodies. There are very conflicting accounts of what is going on there, some say there has been looting, others say it doesn't look that way. Some say bodies have been dragged away, others give credit to the people trying to remove the bodies from the scene.

Every single report we see in the media, every photograph is presented in a biased way. A lot fo information that is presented as fact in the media is pure speculation and storytelling.

I'm not saying there hasn't been looting, sadly I'm sure there has been. I think if this crash has ocurred in any other country and the scene was not secure there'd be looting there as well.

What I am refering to is the media claims of systematic looting of the victims and disrespectful handling of their bodies. We are shown a still image of a man holding an item, possibly a ring and are told he is looting a victim. Many people just believe that. We have no evidence that he looted anything. He may have been, but we don't know. There are huge amounts of people on site clearing items up, I don't believe they would throw away high value items or personal effects such as jewellery. That doesn't mean they will be keeping it themselves, it has to be moved somewhere for the time being.

The media are stating so many things as facts, but don't show any conclusive evidence to the effect.

 

[Isabelle]

Paul Sonne ‏@PaulSonne · 3m
So is the black box handover going to happen in the lobby of my hotel? This is all turning out to be somewhat convenient if so. #MH17

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne

I am thinking whoever turns over the black boxes wants it filmed and they are waiting for things to be in place to do so.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Paul Sonne @PaulSonne · 2m

As if the chaos wasn't bad enough now everyone crowding around a hotel door for word on their black box talks



https://twitter.com/PaulSonne

 

[zwiebel]

Umm, don't speak Dutch, but I think I know what this tweeteris saying about the military in the hotel lobby...

https://mobile.twitter.com/obk/status/491291774120239104

 

[Dr. Know?]

Paul Sonne @PaulSonne · 5m

Borodai walks into hotel lobby with a pistol in one hand a cigarette in the other to negotiate with the Malaysians here #MH17

https://twitter.com/PaulSonne