Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[SilkySifaka]

even CNN is hardly covering it today, a couple of short sections, 2 mins each and off to other stuff.

 

[ilovepierre]

IMO there is something fishy here

...........but switched to another flight to avoid having a stopover.

MAL 370 was direct right?

Yes, 370 was a direct flight.

 

[ilovepierre]

Thanks.
I thought I heard 2. Yet, I just read the passenger list that someone posted earlier, and I don't see any US names?

Weren't they saying initially there were 20+ Americans on the manifest

My dear lord, reading that and seeing name after name stating the Netherlands is shocking!

The US citizen had a Dutch name IIRC.
He held dual citizenship in the US and The Netherlands (or another country in that area).
I can't remember for sure...

 

[kimi_SFC]

@TIME - 15m

"Unreal" scenes from the #MH17 crash by Jerome Sessini, one of the first on site http://t.co/wawM35Y9tK

http://t.co/6aMF3erJd1

http://twitter.com/TIME/status/490938806917681154



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[Roselvr]

'Ukrainian security forces have released an audio of what is alleged to be a series of intercepted phone call between the Oleksandr Serhiyovych, the leader of rebel fighter unit Vostok Battalion, and another rebel, identified only as Andriy. The conversations suggest that the rebels may already be in possession of up to three of the boxes '

“The boxes must be under our control,” says the voice purported to be Serhiyobych. “Our friends from high above are very interested in the fate of the ‘black boxes’. I mean people from Moscow”.

The newly released video is also at the link. I'm not sure how to post it here.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...a-live-updates#block-53cbd71fe4b0f8fc11b98138

I think this is what you're referring to
Click on 12:26 PM - 20 Jul 2014
[video=youtu;W_8i4VWIHrY]http://youtu.be/W_8i4VWIHrY[/video]

 

[Steely Dan]

here is what the rebels said on the black box and a pic of them holding it

This is from the article you posted with that.

...Mr Cameron has joined US President Barack Obama, Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte in condemning Mr Putin's inaction....

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...hand-MH17-black-boxes-over.html#ixzz382OuPUGa
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


I'm very glad to hear that Angela Merkel has come on board with this. Germany has economic ties with Russia and I was afraid she'd be neutral on it. Germany's condemnation carries a lot of weight. JMO

 

[skibaboo]

IMO there is something fishy here

...........but switched to another flight to avoid having a stopover.

MAL 370 was direct right?

I don't think there is anything fishy, just the wording is a little confusing.

He was scheduled to take missing flight MH370 from Kuala Lumpur in March to compete in Taiwan for a race, but switched to another flight to avoid having a stopover. http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-and-mh370-dutch-cyclist-booked-to-fly-on-both-doomed-malaysia-airlines-planes/story-fnizu68q-1226995067518

He was travelling to race in Taiwan so I think it means he changed flight to go from Kuala Lumpur direct to Taiwan to avoid a stop over in Beijing.

Kuala Lumpur > Taiwan
Not
Kuala Lumpur > Beijing (370) > Taiwan

 

[jamiect]

A recap of today's events by reporter on the scene.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/bodies-from-malaysian-airlines-crash-left-to-rot-in-deserted

 

[Mrs G Norris]

David Cameron must have lost touch with reality if he thinks any of those demands are going to be met, especially the part about Russia handing over all the information it has about the events leading up to this tragedy.

Perhaps he will get lucky and Putin will decide to make a bit of a show of cooperating, he'll hide his hand more effectively in Ukraine from now on, perhaps even pretend to back off in Ukraine for a year or two, scapegoat a few rebels he doesn't particularly value, and hold them responsible .. gosh he might even doctor up a few intelligence reports to give Cameron that warm fuzzy feeling that Putin and Russia bent to his will and complied with his demands.

I hope the remains and any belongings are returned to the families so they can be put to rest with dignity, I think that's the best we can hope for and what we should focus on right now. As far as the west pushing Putin around and asking him to bend to our will .. not going to happen.

 

[bettybaby00]

@CNNVideo - 2h

A Ukrainian family says the body of a #MH17 passenger fell through their roof:
http://t.co/e54atDHMon

http://t.co/qiYRiHMuMb

http://twitter.com/CNNVideo/status/490929573861683201l




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Yikes, I can't even fathom that

 

[bettybaby00]

PM David Cameron's (@David_Cameron) Facebook post - 11h

David Cameron
11 hrs ·
Like the horror of Lockerbie in 1988 when I was a young man, the images of the burnt-out Malaysian plane, 298 victims and their personal effects strewn across the wheatfields and villages around Grabovo in eastern Ukraine will never leave me.

Ten of our own citizens died; we grieve for them this weekend. So too did 27 Australians, including members of a family who had previously lost relatives on flight MH370; 43 Malaysians and 192 Dutch citizens also died — a huge blow to our friends and allies. We stand shoulder to shoulder with those countries and with all those affected by this outrage.

But alongside our sympathy there is also anger. Anger that this could happen; anger that a conflict that could have been stopped by Moscow has been fomented by Moscow; anger that some in the West, instead of finding the resolve to deal with this issue, have simply hoped it would go away.

We must establish the full facts of what happened. But the growing weight of evidence points to a clear conclusion: that flight MH17 was blown out of the sky by a surface-to-air missile fired from a rebel-held area.

If this is the case then we must be clear what it means: this is a direct result of Russia destabilising a sovereign state, violating its territorial integrity, backing thuggish militias and training and arming them.

We must turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action. Action to find those who committed this crime and bring them to justice. But this goes much wider than justice.

In Europe we should not need to be reminded of the consequences of turning a blind eye when big countries bully smaller countries. We should not need reminding of the consequences of letting the doctrine of “might is right” prevail. We should not need to be reminded of the lessons of European history.

But we do. For too long there has been a reluctance on the part of too many European countries to face up to the implications of what is happening in eastern Ukraine.

Sitting around the European Council table on Wednesday evening I saw that reluctance at work again.

Some countries, with Britain at the forefront, have consistently pushed for action that reflects the magnitude of the long-term threat. They tend to be the countries with the closest physical proximity to Russia and the most direct experience of what is at stake. Their own independence and nationhood have come at a high price. They never forget it. But others seem more anxious to make this a problem to be managed and contained, not a challenge to be met and mastered.

Elegant forms of words and fine communiqués are no substitute for real action. The weapons and fighters being funnelled across the border between Russia and eastern Ukraine; the support to the militias; the half-truths, the bluster, the delays. They have to stop.

Some international crises are insoluble. Not this one. If President Vladimir Putin stops the support to the fighters in eastern Ukraine and allows the Ukrainian authorities to restore order, this crisis can be brought to an end. Of course there must be proper protections for Russian-speaking minorities. These issues can be addressed. But the overriding need is for Russia to cease its support for violent separatists.

If President Putin does not change his approach to Ukraine, then Europe and the West must fundamentally change our approach to Russia.

This is not about military action, plainly. But it is time to make our power, influence and resources count.

Our economies are strong and growing in strength. And yet we sometimes behave as if we need Russia more than Russia needs us and the access we provide to European markets, European capital, our knowledge and technological expertise.

We don’t seek a relationship of confrontation with Russia. But we must not shrink from standing up for the principles that govern conduct between independent nations in Europe and which ultimately keep the peace on our continent.

So let us be clear about what needs to happen.

First, there must be immediate access to the crash site and the crime scene must be preserved. The remains of the victims must be identified, treated with proper respect and dignity and returned to their families. There must be a ceasefire. And there must be a full investigation into what happened. Russia will have plenty of information about these events which it must make fully available — and straight away.

Second, Russia must immediately halt supplies and training for the rebels. They do not represent the people of Ukraine. Without Russian support they will wither.

Finally, we must establish proper long-term relationships between Ukraine and the European Union; between Ukraine and Russia; and, above all, between Russia and the European Union, Nato and the wider West.

What form that relationship takes rests on how Russia responds to this appalling tragedy. Russia can use this moment to find a path out of this festering, dangerous crisis. I hope it will do so. But if that does not happen then we must respond robustly.

Nearly 25 years ago Britain hosted the Nato summit that ended the Cold War and began the process of ushering Russia back into the councils of the world.

In six weeks’ time Britain will host a Nato summit in Wales at which the relationship with Russia will again take centre stage. It is up to Russia which path that relationship now takes.

via https://m.facebook.com/DavidCameronOfficial/posts/813717755319211




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Bravo. I hope we hear similar sentiments from the rest of the west.

 

[MsFacetious]

I know it's crazy... but the fact that both these flights originally shared a co-pilot?
That's kind of creepy.

http://english.astroawani.com/news/...h370-co-pilot-fated-to-perish-with-mh17-40316

My first thought was "was this co-pilot the target on MH370 but then the last minute change meant he wasn't a victim?"
Makes me think of the possibility of this being a second attempt to kill the co-pilot.
I know that isn't what it is... but it's a bit crazy to think about the odds he'd be assigned to both planes. :twocents:

 

[time]

ABC News Moscow Correspondent - verified twitter feed:

@KiritRadia - 5h

Rebel leader Borodai says he guarantees safety of intl investigators to inspect #MH17 wreckage. Insists doesn't know why they haven't come

http://twitter.com/KiritRadia/status/490915393524211712

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http://abcnews.go.com/International...r-give-crash-victims-bodies/story?id=24640412

In an exclusive interview with ABC News today, the leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic said they would not be turned over until international inspectors come here to inspect them.

"We can and we want to give bodies to the relatives but experts have to examine the bodies here. That is international practice," Alexander Borodai said.
He feared that if the remains are turned over to the Ukrainian government they will be used as evidence to blame his fighters for shooting down the plane, something he again denied.
The problem is that the team of international investigators remains in Kiev. Despite what has been described as a "preliminary" agreement on their travel to the crash site, there has been no announcement about when they might finally arrive.

"We guarantee their safety and their ability to work. After that the bodies can be transported wherever," Borodai said. He insisted that he placed no conditions on their travel to the crash site and wants an "open and independent" investigation.
Borodai said he was willing to provide the remains unconditionally to the Russian government because he trusted them. Given Western accusations about Russia's backing for the rebels, however, it remains to be seen if that will be an acceptable offer.

 

[MummaP]

I'm going to apologise firstly, as i don't fully understand the background to the situation in the area.
I am totally shocked though at what has happened, and totally outraged at what appears to be a lack of interest in retrieving the remains to repatriate them.
The international red cross are trained in such situations, i remember when Lockerbie happened, my neighbour got the phone call to say he needed to get into the Glasgow (Scotland, UK) office to open up and organise the search & rescue equipment, as teams were mobilising.
It was similar last year, when the police helicopter crashed in Glasgow city centre - my husband was on duty that night, and phoned me to let me know he was ok, but on route to it - 2 mins after it happened. Search & rescue were on scene as he arrived, 8 mins after the crash.

I can only speak for Glasgow, Scotland, but in my experience these amazing rescue technicians are usually "on it" before it hits social media. It's for these reasons that i can't fathom why they aren't in the area, waiting to get to work when give the go ahead.

My husband & i have been having a discussion about it all, he has been involved in many differing situations in his career, and his main opinion is that red cross & similar organisations - The salvation army etc - are there before anyone realises something has happened.
So, if thats the case, where are they and why are they not there, poised & ready to react... Or are they?

I often wonder at the level of information we are given, we have discussed how the Malaysian government have issued information, backtracked, changed it, now we're discussing how the Russian media is reporting things, as though with an agenda?

What if the tables are turned and it's us, in so-called civilised world, who are being misinformed, and perhaps we don't know the half of it, or wouldn't want to?

Sorry again for this long winded message, i may seem like a lurker at times, reading & not saying much, but oh my goodness, i'm thinking plenty .

Thanks so much for all the education i'm receiving here guys! X

 

[ElleElle]

Been following but not posting... Are people seriously in favor of going to war with Russia over this?

If European nations want to act then let them do it (and I don't know enough about the Netherlands' media to say whether the aggressive article translated earlier is indeed representative of that country's collective attitude, or whether it is just a hawkish publication in general), and I doubt a majority of European citizens would be in favor since the repercussions would be quite dire (unlike Americans, who are over here, across the big water, where we can "safely" cheerlead the west into yet another war we do not need).

Might I also note how short a memory the US public has, and how glad I am that no one started military action when we shot the Iranian civilian airliner out of the sky, killing all on board, back in the late 80s?? :facepalm:


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I keep reminding myself of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103; which to this day is still not completely resolved. :sigh:

 

[Intermezzo]

I know it's crazy... but the fact that both these flights originally shared a co-pilot?
That's kind of creepy.

http://english.astroawani.com/news/...h370-co-pilot-fated-to-perish-with-mh17-40316

My first thought was "was this co-pilot the target on MH370 but then the last minute change meant he wasn't a victim?"
Makes me think of the possibility of this being a second attempt to kill the co-pilot.
I know that isn't what it is... but it's a bit crazy to think about the odds he'd be assigned to both planes. :twocents:

Some may believe it was fate..

There is an article with an interview with his grandfather who says he accepts that his grandson was fated to die.
He was supposed to co pilot MH370 but a last minute change of duty saved him, only to perish soon after on MH17

http://english.astroawani.com/news/...h370-co-pilot-fated-to-perish-with-mh17-40316
Saved from disappearing with MH370, co-pilot fated to perish with MH17


http://www.themalaysianinsider.com/...dson-a-co-pilot-on-mh17-who-had-escaped-mh370

 

[ElleElle]

Bravo. I hope we hear similar sentiments from the rest of the west.

I have to tend to believe the Israel/Gaza situation is more closely watched than this incident. JMO

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Mayalsia Airline Tragedy Not a Game Changer in Ukraine


Despite lofty predictions to the contrary, the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17 will not change the game in Ukraine, analysts told The Moscow Times on Sunday.

"Rather than pushing for reconciliation and negotiation, the West has used this tragedy to consolidate against Russia, while Putin remains unable to abandon the insurgents in Donetsk and Luhansk. Contrary to many predictions, this situation only fostered the conflict," said Vladimir Evseev, director of the Center of Social and Political Sciences.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...edy-not-a-game-changer-in-ukraine/503784.html

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Russia to Challenge U.S. Sanctions at WTO

Russia is planning to complain to the World Trade Organization, or WTO, about sanctions imposed by the U.S. over Russia's perceived failure to help de-escalate the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, media reports said.

The U.S. on Wednesday let rip with its third and harshest round of sanctions against Russia, targeting two of Russia's biggest banks, two energy companies and eight defense companies.

"Needless to say, we will raise this issue at the WTO General Council and, most likely, will use its dispute resolution procedures," Russian Economic Development Minister Alexei Ulyukayev was quoted as saying Saturday by ITAR-Tass.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/russia-to-challenge-u-s-sanctions-at-wto/503767.html

Interesting timing ..

 

[Elley Mae]

Been following but not posting... Are people seriously in favor of going to war with Russia over this?

If European nations want to act then let them do it (and I don't know enough about the Netherlands' media to say whether the aggressive article translated earlier is indeed representative of that country's collective attitude, or whether it is just a hawkish publication in general), and I doubt a majority of European citizens would be in favor since the repercussions would be quite dire (unlike Americans, who are over here, across the big water, where we can "safely" cheerlead the west into yet another war we do not need).

Might I also note how short a memory the US public has, and how glad I am that no one started military action when we shot the Iranian civilian airliner out of the sky, killing all on board, back in the late 80s?? :facepalm:


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Different scenario, not quite the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Throughout its final flight, IR655 was in radio contact with various air traffic control services using standard civil aviation frequencies, and had spoken in English to Bandar Abbas Approach Control seconds before the Vincennes launched its missiles. According to the U.S. Navy investigation the Vincennes at that time had no equipment suitable for monitoring civil aviation frequencies, other than the International Air Distress frequency. Subsequently U.S. Navy warships in the area were equipped with dialable VHF radios, and access to flight plan information was sought, to better track commercial airliners.

The official ICAO report stated that ten attempts were made to contact Iran Air flight 655: seven on military frequencies and three on commercial frequencies, addressed to an "unidentified Iranian aircraft" and giving its speed as 350 knots (650 km/h), which was the ground speed of the aircraft their radar reported. The crew of the Iran Air 655, however, would have seen a speed of 300 knots (560 km/h) on their controls, which was their indicated airspeed, possibly leading them to conclude that the Vincennes was talking to another aircraft. Both Sides and Vincennes tried contacting flight 655 on several civilian and military frequencies.[7]

International investigations concluded that the crew of IR655 assumed that the three calls that they received before the missiles struck must have been directed at an Iranian P-3 Orion (see below).