Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #2

[time]

Been following but not posting... Are people seriously in favor of going to war with Russia over this?

If European nations want to act then let them do it (and I don't know enough about the Netherlands' media to say whether the aggressive article translated earlier is indeed representative of that country's collective attitude, or whether it is just a hawkish publication in general), and I doubt a majority of European citizens would be in favor since the repercussions would be quite dire (unlike Americans, who are over here, across the big water, where we can "safely" cheerlead the west into yet another war we do not need).

Might I also note how short a memory the US public has, and how glad I am that no one started military action when we shot the Iranian civilian airliner out of the sky, killing all on board, back in the late 80s?? :facepalm:

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Thank you for your post, I totally agree.

 

[Trident]

A recap of today's events by reporter on the scene.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/bodies-from-malaysian-airlines-crash-left-to-rot-in-deserted

That was a VERY interesting read. Thank you.

 

[time]

Mayalsia Airline Tragedy Not a Game Changer in Ukraine


Despite lofty predictions to the contrary, the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH17 will not change the game in Ukraine, analysts told The Moscow Times on Sunday.

"Rather than pushing for reconciliation and negotiation, the West has used this tragedy to consolidate against Russia, while Putin remains unable to abandon the insurgents in Donetsk and Luhansk. Contrary to many predictions, this situation only fostered the conflict," said Vladimir Evseev, director of the Center of Social and Political Sciences.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/...edy-not-a-game-changer-in-ukraine/503784.html

Sad, but probably true.

 

[Insp.Gadget]

President Putin was on his way from Brazil, where he had attended the BRICS summit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS#Summits), to Moscow.
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/malaysian-...iracy-theories-allege-plot-kill-putin-1457385
International Business times published July 19:
"Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17: Russian Conspiracy Theories Allege Plot to Kill Putin"
"Television news outlet Russia 24 reported speculation that the plane was brought down by Ukrainian forces
who thought that it was the presidential jet of Russian president Vladimir Putin, which it reported crossed
flight paths with MH17 earlier that day returning from Latin America."


Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 (MH17/MAS17) Flight MH17, flight from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur that crashed
near Hrabove (area under military control of Donbass People's Militia) in Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine about 40 km (25 mi) from
the Ukraine–Russia border on the 17 July 2014. Flight is BELIEVED to have been shot down with a Buk surface-to-air missile.
All 295 people (283 passengers and 15 crew) on board the Boeing 777-200ER airliner died.
What we know about the Aircraft:
Flight 17 was operated with a Boeing 777-2H6ER,serial number 28411, registration 9M-MRD.
The 84th Boeing 777 produced, it first flew on 17 July 1997, exactly 17 years before the incident, and was delivered
new to Malaysia Airlines on 29 July 1997.Powered by two Rolls-Royce Trent 892 engines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mh17#Aircraft)

Both US and Ukrainian officials suggest a surface-to-air missile as the most likely cause of crash.
If a missile caused the crash, it's most likely a BUK system missile, as BUK is the only surface-to-air missile installation
in the area capable of reaching the altitude of commercial air traffic.

Buk surface-to-air missile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system)


Daily Mail:
"US secretary of state John Kerry echoed Poroshenko's claims that the missile system for the plane strike was supplied by Russia."
"Mr Kerry said the US had intelligence that major supplies of weapons have been transferred from Russia to rebel forces over the past several weeks -

including a 150-vehicle convoy of armoured personnel carriers, tanks and rocket launchers.
Kerry said the United States intercepted conversations about the transfer to separatists of the Russian SA-11 radar-guided SA11 missile system it

blames for the downing of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rist-captures-military-truck-carrying-BUK-M1-

border-town.html


ABC.net.au:
"Flight MH17: Russian-made Buk surface-to-air missile the most likely culprit in deadly attack on passenger jet"
"Experts say a medium-range surface-to-air missile would be well able to hit the plane, which was reportedly flying
at an altitude of more than 10 kilometres. Both Russian and Ukrainian forces have variants of the Buk, a surface-to-air missile
system - including SA-11 and SA-17 missiles - that can hit targets at an altitude of up to 25 kilometres.
Under NATO's terminology, the Buk missile is referred to as the "Gadfly"."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/did-a-missile-down-the-malaysian-jet-over-ukraine/5606156


More about missile systems BUK SA-11 / SA-11 Gadfly:
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-9K37-Buk.html

One of the major Russian enterprises in the development of weaponry control systems for fighter planes and
mobile medium range anti-aircraft SAM defense vehicles, is the joint stock company NIIP or
'JSC V.V. Tikhomirov Scientific Research Institute of Instrument Design'
'Scientific Research Institute for Instrumentation', or 'JSC NIIP'
Listed NIIP Products and developments:
9К37 Buk missile system with 9M38 missile - NATO codename SA-11 "Gadfly" etc.
http://www.niip.ru/eng/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=9&Itemid=9
"JSC NIIP is a unique enterprise of the Russian defense-industry complex. On the one hand,
NIIP is the developer of the weapon control systems (WCS) for fighters.
The most world famous NIIP developments are WCS of MiG-31, Su-27, Su-33, Su-30MKK, Su-30MK2,
Su-30MKI, Su-27SM, Su-35 fighters and air defense missile complexes of "KUB" ("Kvadrat") and "BUK" series."
More info on NIIP:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tikhomirov_Scientific_Research_Institute_of_Instrument_Design


European Policy Centre PDF:
"Sanctions clearly are one aspect of EU’s policy towards Russia and the crisis in Ukraine.
The EU leaders have laid-out a three-stage sanctions process."
http://www.epc.eu/documents/uploads/pub_4285_eu_s_sanctions_against_russia.pdf


Deutsche Welle or DW is Germany's international broadcaster published Date 09.05.2014:
http://www.dw.de/third-stage-sanctions-vs-russia-more-talk-or-real-clout/a-17619687
"Much has been made, but little is known about the so-called third stage of sanctions
President Obama and Chancellor Merkel vowed to impose last week should Moscow undermine Ukraine’s elections.
"While the first and second phase of sanctions involved primarily individuals and their assets, the third
stage could target corporations or products in specified sectors. Designated sectors mentioned in Obama's
third executive order are financial services, energy, metals and mining, engineering, and defense and related materiel."



The St. Petersburg Telegraph Agency (SPTA), the first official news agency of Russia and the predecessor of ITAR-TASS
Published July 20, 2014:
http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741523
"UK says will seek tougher Russia sanctions, if Moscow obstructs Boeing crash probe"
"The UK would seek to persuade the EU "to go further in terms of sanctions" ahead of a meeting of foreign ministers on Tuesday, unless Moscow’s

position on the Malaysian Airlines crash changed, the British Foreign Secretary told the BBC."

 

[redheadedgal]

just now...


http://www.flightradar24.com

 

[Isabelle]

I'm not sure the victims will be able to be identified and returned to their loved ones.

 

[gia2]

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/mh17-rebels-reportedly-move-bodies-of-crash-victims-into-refrigerated-rail-carriages-as-australian-toll-rises-to-37/story-fnizu68q-1226994936490

This report states:
Ukraine’s deputy prime minister said 100 rescue workers were on site but under the control of 800 to 900 heavily-armed gunmen. “Rescue teams have to follow their orders under the guns,” he said.

Based on the images you've all seen today, do you think it is realistic that there are that many heavily armed gunmen at the site? I do realise the crash site is vast, I wonder how they are concentrated (how many in each site area. I believe the gunmen are just there to ensure those working there don't go anywhere they are permitted, are they also the ones moving parts of the plane? It sounds like these gunmen aren't the ones who were moving bodies.

I don't understand the need to have 8/9 gunmen per each individual, unarmed rescue worker. Surely a much smaller number would be equally effective. I'm just trying to figure out what they're actually doing there. I wonder how many people (including reporters and other such people) are actually in or around the site each day.

 

[geevee]

Most Bodies Recovered from Downed MH17

The Ukrainian government says 219 bodies have been recovered from the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed after being shot down on Thursday, as well as what they believe are parts of 28 additional bodies. That would leave 51 of the people on the plane still unaccounted for.

http://www.voanews.com/content/bodies-recovered-from-malaysia-crash-site/1961311.html

 

[SouthAussie]

even CNN is hardly covering it today, a couple of short sections, 2 mins each and off to other stuff.

Still pretty heavily covered here in Australia .. but it probably will be until we get our victims home, then I imagine it will go quiet.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

[h=1]Malaysian Plane Shoot Down Shows How Far and How Fast Putin has Fallen, Portnikov Says

History typically moves slowly, but there are times when it “unexpectedly accelerates.” The last six months on the former Soviet space fall into that category, Portnikov continues. A half year ago, Putin was still taking part in G8 summits, he was still hosting leaders of the world in his home city, he was talking with them about important issues.

The Russian leader at that time elicited respect from some and dislike from others, but he wasn’t causing trepidation in almost all. That has now changed, Portnikov says. By his own actions, Putin has become an outcast. His foreign visits are limited, he’s not in the G8 anymore, and he doesn’t discuss key issues with US President Barack Obama.

“From respected regional politician, albeit an authoritarian one, Putin has become simply a failing pupil who has been held back in the first years of school and who has been abusing the weak.”

http://www.interpretermag.com/malay...and-how-fast-putin-has-fallen-portnikov-says/[/h]

 

[gia2]

Most Bodies Recovered from Downed MH17

The Ukrainian government says 219 bodies have been recovered from the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed after being shot down on Thursday, as well as what they believe are parts of 28 additional bodies. That would leave 51 of the people on the plane still unaccounted for.

http://www.voanews.com/content/bodies-recovered-from-malaysia-crash-site/1961311.html

From looking at images of the burned out areas of the crash, it does seem feasible that 51 bodies were incinerated there. With most bodies and parts only being removed from site today I doubt that any thorough search of the ashes in that area of the crash site have been conducted. Priority has of course been on the bodies which needed to be recovered to stop them decomposing on site.
I hope they will carefully comb through that area to look for fragments, so more families may at least get something to bury or scatter. Of course, that is based on my hope the bodies make it home to their families.

 

[Dr. Know?]

This could have and should have happened days ago.


Putin Says Russia Will Do Everything Possible to End Ukraine Conflict

Statement Published in Early Hours of Monday Morning on Kremlin Website

Russia President Vladimir Putin promised his country would do everything possible to end the conflict in Ukraine, which has claimed the lives of the people aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia-airlines-crash-in-ukraine/SS-2-581200/

 

[Mrs G Norris]

This could have and should have happened days ago.


Putin Says Russia Will Do Everything Possible to End Ukraine Conflict

Statement Published in Early Hours of Monday Morning on Kremlin Website

Russia President Vladimir Putin promised his country would do everything possible to end the conflict in Ukraine, which has claimed the lives of the people aboard Malaysia Airlines Flight 17.

http://stream.wsj.com/story/malaysia-airlines-crash-in-ukraine/SS-2-581200/

Putin SAYS Russia will do everything possible to end Ukraine conflict .. but sadly fail eventually .. those darn pesky rebels have a mind of their own.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Kirit Radia ‏@KiritRadia · 20m
What Putin doesn't say in his #MH17 statement: no call for rebels to turn over bodies or to preserve crime scene http://www.kremlin.ru/news/46262

https://twitter.com/KiritRadia

 

[kimi_SFC]

@MatinaStevis - 2h (of the @WSJ):

My colleague @PaulSonne has been doing a brave, forensic job collecting info at the #MH17 crash site. All here:
http://t.co/JnQxeBxY7r

July 20, 2014 4:44 PM
Reporter’s Notebook: Tweets and Images From Malaysia Airlines Crash Site in Ukraine


http://twitter.com/MatinaStevis/status/491007939675566081



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[CARIIS]

I'm going to apologise firstly, as i don't fully understand the background to the situation in the area.
I am totally shocked though at what has happened, and totally outraged at what appears to be a lack of interest in retrieving the remains to repatriate them.
The international red cross are trained in such situations, i remember when Lockerbie happened, my neighbour got the phone call to say he needed to get into the Glasgow (Scotland, UK) office to open up and organise the search & rescue equipment, as teams were mobilising.
It was similar last year, when the police helicopter crashed in Glasgow city centre - my husband was on duty that night, and phoned me to let me know he was ok, but on route to it - 2 mins after it happened. Search & rescue were on scene as he arrived, 8 mins after the crash.

I can only speak for Glasgow, Scotland, but in my experience these amazing rescue technicians are usually "on it" before it hits social media. It's for these reasons that i can't fathom why they aren't in the area, waiting to get to work when give the go ahead.

My husband & i have been having a discussion about it all, he has been involved in many differing situations in his career, and his main opinion is that red cross & similar organisations - The salvation army etc - are there before anyone realises something has happened.
So, if thats the case, where are they and why are they not there, poised & ready to react... Or are they?

I often wonder at the level of information we are given, we have discussed how the Malaysian government have issued information, backtracked, changed it, now we're discussing how the Russian media is reporting things, as though with an agenda?

What if the tables are turned and it's us, in so-called civilised world, who are being misinformed, and perhaps we don't know the half of it, or wouldn't want to?

Sorry again for this long winded message, i may seem like a lurker at times, reading & not saying much, but oh my goodness, i'm thinking plenty .

Thanks so much for all the education i'm receiving here guys! X

why they aren't in the area, waiting to get to work when give the go ahead.




TY it is just such a valid question!

 

[Dr. Know?]

Translation of Kremlin article.

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http://www.kremlin.ru/news/46262&langpair=ru|en&ie=UTF8

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Abbott finally got a call through to Putin, he says Putin said 'all the right things' .. from radio, no media link yet.

 

[kimi_SFC]

@CNNTonight - 2h 30m:

MT @AndreaCNN First their loved ones are shot out of the sky. Now separatists take their bodies - what's next? Hear from #MH17 families 10p

http://twitter.com/CNNTonight/status/491006839765860352

----

FYI:
Live broadcast with @DonLemonCNN scheduled on CNN @ 10p ET


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[SouthAussie]

why they aren't in the area, waiting to get to work when give the go ahead.


TY it is just such a valid question!

I think the teams are in Kiev waiting for official word to go in .. and I think they have been there since a day or two after the incident. At least, the Aussies have been. Obviously Kiev is not Donetsk, but it is probably the safest and most sensible place for them to wait.

(Though I do wish they went to the crash site en masse every single day and silently waited.)


"Australian experts are in Kiev, ready to travel to the crash site controlled by pro-Russian militiamen, who have loaded almost 200 bodies into refrigerated train wagons."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ternational-access-to-crash-site-live-updates