Malaysia Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine. 298 aboard. 7/17/2014 - #3

[Insp.Gadget]

About the Ukrainian Su-25 fighter in MSM
Independent.co.uk:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-finger-at-ukrainian-fighter-jet-9619843.html

"In a briefing in Moscow, Russia’s Defence Ministry called on the US to back up its allegations that pro-Russian rebels had downed the Boeing 777 and provided radar imagery of its own. It said it was evidence that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter had been tracking the civilian airliner.

“Russian air space control systems detected a Ukrainian Air Force plane, presumably an SU-25, scrambling in the direction of the Malaysian Boeing,” said Air Force Lieutenant-General Igor Makushev, according to Reuters. “The distance of the SU-25 plane from the Boeing was from three to five kilometres.”
The claim, which was promptly dismissed by Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko..."

 

[kimi_SFC]

Paul Sonne ‏@PaulSonne 1h

Crash site in Rozsypne, day six. Almost want to put caution tape around it myself. #MH17

@PaulSonne has done a tremendous job at the crash site. I cannot imagine what his moments alone are like, when the reality of this tragedy begins to encompass his thoughts.

I wish him, and his colleagues, who continue to dedicate themselves to documenting the truth #MH17, via their forensic (photo)journalism, the strength they will need to heal themselves from all they've seen, and have yet to see. For the truth is, what they've shared is only the tip of the iceberg. Words can never express the gratitude of a global community who are forever in their debt. :twocents: :moo:

raying:
#PrayForMH17





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[PoirotryInMotion]

(An aside from one of the foremost Tweeters on the Malaysian Airline disasters...)

Jon Ostrower ‏@jonostrower 3h

It's like we all spent the first half of 2014 reporting the biggest stories in the world, then in July we decided to put them all together.

Sadly, spot on.

 

[kimi_SFC]

(An aside from one of the foremost Tweeters on the Malaysian Airline disasters...)



Sadly, spot on.

This is a punch in the gut in <140 characters.


Thank you for sharing the painful truth....


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[Mrs G Norris]

This is such a great interview with Ken Livingstone, full of great quotes ..

&#8216;Ukraine is a dysfunctional country, not because of Russia&#8217;

The simple fact is Ukraine is a dysfunctional country, it is not being brought together by its new president who needs to offer reassurance both to the people in Eastern Ukraine and to Russian people that Ukraine will not become a member of NATO, will not bring nuclear weapons onto its soil threatening Russia, and it needs to reassure people in Eastern Ukraine that they are not in any way dominated or treated as second-class citizens. They need some sort of devolved government like we have here in Britain for our Welsh and Scottish minorities. But the Ukrainian government does not seem to make any concessions that could bring this civil war to an end.

....

KL: Let's make it clear, Russia did not destabilize Ukraine. Ukraine has had a succession of pretty awful governments, it is a divided nation, it was put together hurriedly after the collapse of the Soviet Union. What Putin wants is a secure stable state on the border with Russia which is not a threat to it. The simplest way for the Ukrainian government to remove all these tensions is to say that they do not have any intentions to join NATO or bring American missiles onto Ukrainian soil.
Let's not forget that when the Soviet Union put missiles in Cuba the world came to the point of extinction. America was not prepared to tolerate that military presence just 90 miles from its border.

...

KL: We do not have a free press in Britain. 70 percent of our papers are owned by 5 billionaires, all of them tax exiles, all of them happy to have the focus on this issue rather than a serious discussion about the mess that David Cameron's government has made of our economy. We have an election coming up. Anything they can seize on to divert attention from the issues that matter to the British people will do.

http://rt.com/op-edge/174420-ukrainian-government-civil-war/

I think he has a point, our media is incredibly biased, I have seen very little attempt to understand the issue in Ukraine and am very suspicious of media's somewhat blind pro Ukrainian stance.

 

[Gardenlady]

More analysis on the movement of the BUK Missile launcher moving into Ukraine then back to Russia

http://pressimus.com/Interpreter_Mag/press/3503

Over the last day or so I've heard a number of analysts start referring to the fact that it's not so much that Putin is supporting the rebels, but more the fact that the rebels are really just Russian military ..

JACK SQUIER: My personal suspicion is that this is actually a Russian military operation. There's considerable evidence that the leadership is GRU officers and not people from Donetsk.

Just to give one example, they speak with central Russian accents, not with Donetsk region

This supports some talk I heard months ago beginning with the Crimea situation from some Ukrainians (biased source, but just reporting what I have heard) on a euro forum I post on.

Who knows what's true tho??


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[kimi_SFC]

Tweet from @BBCWorld - 5m

Follow our continuing coverage of the aftermath of flight #MH17's crash in Ukraine http://t.co/Bb16QN1TC4

http://t.co/2HIlgAR03K

http://twitter.com/BBCWorld/status/491686836373176320

:candle:
:rose:


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[ZaZara]

Eindhovens Dagblad

http://www.ed.nl/algemeen/binnenland/politie-zorgt-voor-waardig-transport-lichamen-1.4460422

Politie zorgt voor waardig transport lichamen
22 juli, 20:54

RIJSWIJK (ANP) - De politie begeleidt vanaf woensdag de transporten van stoffelijke overschotten van de omgekomen passagiers van het neergestorte vliegtuig van Malaysia Airlines. Dat meldde de politie dinsdagavond.

De eerste lichamen worden woensdag op Eindhoven Airport verwacht. De lijkkisten gaan daarvandaan naar de Korporaal van Oudheusdenkazerne in Hilversum. De politie zal de transporten begeleiden voor een vlotte doorgang, maar ook om de verplaatsing waardig te laten verlopen.

Volgens het ministerie van Veiligheid en Justitie ,,zullen de slachtoffers in een colonne onder politiebegeleiding worden overgebracht'' van Eindhoven naar Hilversum. De route is nog niet bekend. Het is ook nog niet bekend of daar snelwegen voor worden afgezet. Daar wordt nog aan gewerkt, aldus Rijkswaterstaat.

Translation:

Police will take care of dignified transport remains
22 July, 20: 54

Rijswijk (ANP)- Starting Wednesday, the Dutch Police will accompany the transport of mortal remains of the passengers who perished in the crashed plane of Malaysia Airlines. That was reported by the police Tuesday evening.

The first remains are expected Wednesday at Eindhoven Airport. From there, the coffins will go to the Korporaal van Oudheusdenkazerne in Hilversum. The police will accompany the transports for a smooth passage and also to render dignity to the transport.

According to the Department of Security and Justice, the victims will be transferred under police escort in a single file (military column) from Eindhoven to Hilversum. The route is not yet known. It is also not yet known whether highways will be closed for this. We are still working on it, said the representative of Rijkswaterstaat.

BBM

 

[Insp.Gadget]

About the 'reported looting'
http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...dit-cards-stolen/story-fnizu68q-1226996570456

"Freelance photojournalist Filip Warwick said that he had not come across a single wallet with money,
mobile phone or camera at the crash site."

"Australian journalist Demjin Doroschenko also reported on the chaos at the scene.
The 43-year-old said he had rummaged through some of the passengers&#8217; belongings in a desperate bid to
retrieve personal information including passports and boarding passes to give to their families.
But he said many items had been stolen from the luggage and, like Warwick, he failed to find one wallet with any money in it."

QUESTION:
Why are the Freelance Journalists & Journalists able to go through passengers personal belongings,
is there an exception or a 'special rule' for the Journalists, which allows them to
open wallets and have a look at the personal belongings ?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Agree, just because other people are going through the belongings doesn't give the journalists at the scene the green light to join in.

 

[kimi_SFC]

I came across this link via the Arms Sales Monitoring Project (ASMP) of the Federation of American Scientists (FAS):


Man-Portable Air Defense Systems (MANPADS) Proliferation: Understanding the Problem

http://fas.org/asmp/campaigns/MANPADS/MANPADS.html

-----

Very informative (I hope it's OK to post)....



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[LambChop]

Maybe the journalists are documenting the fact that all personal belongings have already been gone through and valuables are missing because if they do not document it on video they may be accused of stealing the items themselves. There is no one in control there....no security to protect them other than their cameras and what they themselves document. I would think it is pretty clear that luggage has been gone through and anything of value taken out. At this point I'm sure the reported hoped to find something of value that could be returned to a family before looters return. jmo

 

[justbeachy]

I don't think they have a "green light" necessarily, but I think they are doing it with the best of intentions. Their retrieval of personal property might be the only hope of having it returned to a family member. Otherwise I fear it would end up lost in that mess forever. I would appreciate any journalist who went through my loved one's belongings and managed to find anything at all that I could hold on to. IMO there is a big difference between rifling through property for personal gain and going through property in the hopes of finding personal items for the families.

 

[kimi_SFC]

Maybe the journalists are documenting the fact that all personal belongings have already been gone through and valuables are missing because if they do not document it on video they may be accused of stealing the items themselves. There is no one in control there....no security to protect them other than their cameras and what they themselves document. I would think it is pretty clear that luggage has been gone through. jmo

I am going to give them the benefit of the doubt. There are/were no CSI techs on scene, who would normally photo-document these things. Just as the "teddy bear incident" required context for full understanding, IMO the same standard should apply here.

Just thinking out loud here....

:twocents: :moo:


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[PoirotryInMotion]

I don't think they have a "green light" necessarily, but I think they are doing it with the best of intentions. Their retrieval of personal property might be the only hope of having it returned to a family member. Otherwise I fear it would end up lost in that mess forever. I would appreciate any journalist who went through my loved one's belongings and managed to find anything at all that I could hold on to. IMO there is a big difference between rifling through property for personal gain and going through property in the hopes of finding personal items for the families.

True, and I share your personal sentiment. This is a situation where no one's been given a green light, or a red light, for that matter. Truth being, there is no externally guiding 'light' at all with no one officially in charge.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I don't think there was any ill intent behind it, but adding to the interference at the site is not exactly helping. It would hurt if you lost someone in the disaster to see their belongings being gone through IMO. How can we say it is not OK for rebels to touch things, but OK for journalists?

 

[Isabelle]

Tweet from @KiritRadia - 2h

Spent the day at a wheat field a few miles from main #MH17 crash site. It was littered with debris. Totally unguarded

http://t.co/gck8SwRlS3

http://twitter.com/KiritRadia/status/491660217986588672



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Looking for missile evidence and black boxes. Unbelievable that parts of the wreckage have been removed. Those two countries need to be shut down! Now!

 

[PoirotryInMotion]

I don't think there was any ill intent behind it, but adding to the interference at the site is not exactly helping. It would hurt if you lost someone in the disaster to see their belongings being gone through IMO. How can we say it is not OK for rebels to touch things, but OK for journalists?

JMO, but for me that would depend on how I saw it being done. If I saw some drunken soldier rifling through my loved one's suitcase pocketing valuables I'd be outraged; if I saw video of a journalist respectfully seeking to determine identification of contents (presumably for their return to family) that would be another. I would be able to tell the difference in a video.

 

[ZaZara]

Balliauw &#8207;@Balliauw 4 min.

Belg. mil. Embraer is opgestegen in #Kiev met zwarte dozen #MH17. Air Accidents Investigation Branch in #Farnborough zal ze onderzoeken.

Translation:

Belgian Military Embrear has departed #Kiev with black boxes #MH17. Air Accidents Investigation Branch in #Farnborough (UK) will investigate them.

 

[Insp.Gadget]

In a previous MH17 Thread (#2 ?) somebody asked relevant questions in regards RED CROSS
and if they were called to the Crash site.
I have not been able to find any information in MSM media about Red Cross in Ukraine and MH17.

This is what I did find, but why were there no reports of Red Cross being alerted to go to the Crash site ?
Can somebody answer or find more MSM links ?



http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/22/us-ukraine-crisis-warcrimes-idUSKBN0FR0V920140722
Published in Geneva 22.7.2014:
"(Reuters) - The Red Cross has made a confidential legal assessment that Ukraine is officially in a war, Western diplomats
and officials say, opening the door to possible war crimes prosecutions, including over the downing of Malaysia Airlines MH-17.
"Clearly it's an international conflict and therefore this is most probably a war crime," one Western diplomat in Geneva told Reuters.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is the guardian of the Geneva Conventions setting down the rules of war, and
as such is considered a reference in the United Nations deciding when violence has evolved into an armed conflict."


Official site for Ukrainian Red Cross
https://www.ifrc.org/en/what-we-do/where-we-work/europe/ukrainian-red-cross-society/
"The Ukrainian Red Cross Society, in collaboration with the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies (IFRC) and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has been responding to the recent outbreaks of violence in Kiev."


http://www.redcross.org.au/respect-the-emblem-in-the-ukraine-red-cross.aspx
Published TUESDAY JUNE 3, 2014
"Ukrainian Red Cross has provided emergency medical and other assistance to more
than 1,500 people affected by the crisis in the Ukraine. Photo: IFRC
Ukrainian Red Cross, Russian Red Cross, and the International Red Cross and
Red Crescent Movement are extremely concerned about the humanitarian situation resulting from the current crisis in Ukraine. "



Where was the Red Cross during and after the Crash, why were there not Red Cross volunteers pictured at all, did they not get access?
Normally Red Cross Volunteers play a vital role in emergencies...


E.g.
http://ispub.com/IJRDM/1/2/8296
"The American Red Cross is internationally recognized as the leader in disaster relief, but less well known is its role in providing psychological support services to those impacted by disasters, ranging from single family fires to mass fatality incidents. "
"In the fall of 1996, the Congress of the United States passed the Aviation Disaster Family Assistance Act, which gave the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) the responsibility to oversee support services to families of passengers involved in commercial aviation disasters in the United States and its territories. "
"Aviation disasters are not unlike other mass casualty events, in that there is usually a tremendous outpouring of volunteers who wish to contribute their services to help those grieving. Though well meaning, these volunteers can quickly overwhelm those they are trying to help. The Red Cross has developed a system to manage this inflow of volunteers. A Staff Processing Center (SPC) is often set up in or near the relief operations headquarters. All volunteer and paid staff must process in and out of this center. Licenses and credentials are checked"....


Why where there not any reports about the Red Cross in Ukraine ?