Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #4

[janeh]

I understand the family’s concern and disbelief. Obviously it is so tragic! To begin with, I also do not understand how they or the other children didn’t hear anything if an intruder/abductor had entered the house... Or when Nora had walked down the staircase and walk through the window. Let’s get back to basic and step 1 .... after that, we can try to decipher the lack of evidence of any abduction... Plus how she didn’t have any scar/sign of mishandling.

It is easy to be blameful or distrustful when one is in shock. But may be Nora really walked out silently herself...

I believe that this actually what happened. Nora was perhaps so excited in the environment that she wanted to explore as soon as she woke up. She could have gone out outside not far to begin with and then couldn't work out how to get back.

 

[SOMETHINGWILLDO]

To me it seems more probable that Nora left of her own accord rather than through abduction which would have created some sort of noise.

Absolutely. If Nora had of died from a head injury or a fall I would be concerned about fowl play but she died from complications from starving and stress. It is one thing the parents stating what Nora would and wouldn’t do but a child with those types of disabilities

I believe that this actually what happened. Nora was perhaps so excited in the environment that she wanted to explore as soon as she woke up. She could have gone out outside not far to begin with and then couldn't work out how to get back.

I think you’re right. The excitement of the environment and the distractions that come with it.
Children with different disabilities do and will always continue to surprise their families in various ways, I feel this was no different, Nora was thought of as a child who wouldn’t leave without her parents, it doesn’t mean she wouldn’t and given the situation and the excitable surroundings I genuinely believe she left the room herself without the help of anyone.

 

[Armchair_Defective]

The poor parents, understandably shocked and distraught and seeking answers that aren’t there. This is going to be very hard for them to deal with and accept.

My thoughts are similar. If there is no outside sign of assault or being taken by force, toxicology is the last test that could indicate anything like that happening.
IMO I don't think it very plausible that someone drugged Nora at some stage but then released her.

 

[SamH123]

First post on these forums but I have lurked for a while
It seems possible to me that the jet lag/different time zone could have played a part in Nora walking off? Did she go missing at a time that would have been mid-day in Ireland?

If she was a girl who could get restless (maybe even confused/disorientated?, had she travelled before?) she may have been very bored if wide awake and decided to wander somewhere

 

[JennyDee]

Poor Nora she’s been alive for at least a week and even with sniffer dogs and cadaver dogs and police and helicopters and drones and heat sensors they couldn’t find her?
They also played her mothers voice which I hope was a comfort to Nora I hope she heard it and wasn’t scared.

 

[oceanstarryeyes]

brought over from @Kubirai post on last thread:

Nora's parents tried to convince police on Aug 4 that she couldn't walk out on her own, and must have been abducted from the cabin by a criminal.

Their Aug 6 press conference tried to convince the whole world of same theory.

Nora's desire to see the waterfall was mentioned recently, and her body was found along that route.

So what do we surmise from this?

“Nora's parents tried to convince police on Aug 4 that she couldn't walk out on her own, and must have been abducted from the cabin by a criminal.”

If Nora “couldn't walk out on her own” why would the parents have her sleeping upstairs in a bedroom with the only escape during an emergency or fire being a tight spiral staircase?
Either Nora must have been sleeping in the room downstairs or she was able to walk out on her own.

 

[Candidateforwax]

While I'm glad it looks like there was no criminal element to Nora's death, this is still so heartbreaking. The idea that she was wandering through the jungle, lost, scared and possibly suffering is horrible. My heart aches for her family.

 

[JennyDee]

Nora’s parents couldn’t of harmed her if she was alive for at least a week before she died.

 

[JennyDee]

It says here a ruptured ulcer could of been caused by starvation and stress.
Nora Quoirin probably died of starvation and stress, autopsy finds | UK news | The Guardian

 

[Jax49]

ADMIN NOTE:

Websleuths is victim friendly. These parents are victims who have lost their daughter, so if your post is not victim friendly, it will be removed.

Bump.

 

[shinimeggie]

I agree, and in the UK they are called EHCPs - education health and care plan.

I've never seen or done a school plan, so I can't talk about the order they are done in, however, if you look at the information the media was given, it's literally in the same order as asked in the PIP form, which makes me feel it comes from these forms. Even things like 'can you/they do buttons' is one of the questions asked under Washing and Dressing.

That's why I think it's from the PIP form - but like I said, I've never seen or done a school plan regarding disability, it could follow the same or similar order.

I've filled in and helped fill in so many PIP forms that the order is practically in my head at this point!

 

[oceanstarryeyes]

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
French radio France Info reporting Nora Quoirin’s autopsy results reveals she died 4 days before her body was found, with no signs of beatings or violence but internal bleeding. UNVERIFIED at this stage and we are waiting for police confirmation at presser scheduled for 2pm.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
JUST IN: Nora Quoirin’s cause of death was upper gastrointestinal bleeding caused by a perforation likely brought on by prolonged hunger and stress. No signs she was raped; hymen intact. Scratches on her feet. Police have no reason to suspect abduction or foul play for now.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

Nora Quoirin had died “two to three days” before she was found, “no more than four days”, said the Negeri Sembilan police chief. She was missing for 10 days.

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Sumisha Naidu

With this and given the fact she died no more than 4 days ago, questions remain as to

• how she ended up in the ravine. Did she wander off and get lost?
• why did the SAR team not find her in the six days she was still alive? Was she hiding?

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu
Sumisha Naidu Retweeted marlo

Speculation about the credibility of Malaysian forensics’ experts in the Nora Quoirin case but don’t forget, it was local experts who identified Kim Jong Nam’s cause of death as from a WMD: VX poisoning. If bilateral ties were a concern, that wasn’t the smartest move.

“Nora Quoirin had died “two to three days” before she was found, “no more than four days”, said the Negeri Sembilan police chief. She was missing for 10 days.”

I think the strangest thing is that she ended up at the Waterfall when she died.
How many days had Nora been at the Waterfall before she died?

 

[Blamhappy]

Can you really die of stress? Can stressresslly cause those problems described?

It can contribute to stomach problems, yes.

 

[HayLouise]

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu

Sumisha Naidu Retweeted Easy Like Monday Morning

This has come up in notifications more than once so will clear this up: this was something stated by police but it was not stated as the basis for which rape was ruled out. The tragedy may have occurred in a jungle but Malaysian forensic pathologists were not trained in one.

Sumisha Naidu on Twitter

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu

The qualifications of Dr Siew Sheue Feng from Hospital Kuala Lumpur, one of the senior pathologists who carried out the autopsy on Nora Quoirin’s body. Irish and French police were also present during the autopsy. http://www.bernama.com/en/news.php?id=1756842 …

Sumisha Naidu on Twitter

Sumisha Naidu‏Verified account @sumishanaidu

It is one thing to question the police process, transparency etc - all valid questions. But to question the qualifications of Malaysian doctors and scientists for no reason other than them being Malaysian is another.

Sumisha Naidu on Twitter

 

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[Ruki]

Really sad PM results but certainly the most likely answer given the information around Nora's disappearance. It seems the the estimation of her abilities was based more on her prior behaviour than strict limitations, and behaviour can be extremely variable in new environments. Even with limited mobility and co-ordination it would be possible to move around a good distance in jungle IMO - it would just take longer and with a lot more tripping and falling. Heartbreaking for her parents she wasn't able to be found in the first few days, but I wonder what could have been done to find a child disoriented and likely afraid of searchers. I think the people involved did their best for Nora. If there are any lessons to be learned from this tragic accident I hope it helps other children who may end up in Nora's situation.

<modsnip - off topic>

 

[ACG2x]

While we may never know why/how NQ left the resort that night, it is almost certain now that she did on her own. The results weren’t even inconclusive on the telltale signs of abduction such as bruising, sexual assault evidence and ligature marks from being tied up - they were emphatic. IIRC, members of Irish and French LE were also present at the PM so let’s be careful before we go speculating about shoddy forensics work.

I can understand NQ’s family’s disbelief and they aren’t in the frame of mind right now to process this but hopefully over time reality will be easier to accept. Anything at this point that would suggest abduction is speculation and rather wild theory that no evidence uncovered so far supports.

Best guess is NQ was excited or spooked by a noise or movement outside and went to investigate, then got lost and succumbed to starvation. The timeline by which she had been deceased compared to when she went missing matches approximately how long the human body can survive without food too. She was a developmentally disabled teenager in a new environment so while under normal circumstances she wouldn’t have wandered off, these were not normal circumstances.

The Malaysian police put everything they had into this one with over 100 people searching and it was awesome to see so many strangers show up to help a foreign vacationer.

The parents right now may want to believe there was foul play because then the guilt of letting NQ wander off and ultimately to her death is out of their hands however this really looks like a case of a tragic set of events that can’t be “blamed” on anyone.

I hope they find comfort and peace as the months go by and keep NQ’s memory alive. RIP Nora.

 

[Marie A]

I joined this forum to give my opinion but then didn't as it was anecdotal but I will this time.
1.) The waterfall..I am local to her mothers family and it was on the radio about her love of waterfalls. It was the same time a family member announced the ******** and that they wanted to send family members out. This raised my hackles because she had been missing less than 48 hours. My opinion of this has changed since then.

2.)I work in a medical field with experience in Special needs. People with impaired cognitive ability can be fearless, they don't understand danger so don't feel fear. Couple this with an obsession and they will have a compulsion that can't be rationalized or stopped. I don't think Nora's physical impairments were as bad as her parents led us to believe otherwise they wouldn't have taken her on that holiday. A home with a spiral staircase and a jungle environment would have been no.no's
Though like all children, special needs children often surprise us. We don't know what they are capable off until they actually do it!
3.) My mother died of a ruptured peptic ulcer caused by taking anti-inflammatory medication it is one of the most painful deaths known and that would explain the foetal position. Death is also very quick. Nora just seems very young for that. Unless she had Irritable bowel disease or something else. Her parents did say she had a lot of hospital stays and medical complaints.

Manhenry- thanks for this post. I think this is one of the most well thought out and intelligent posts I have read regarding Nóra and her situation.

Thank you for clarification regarding the waterfall (Nora’s love of waterfalls) - it is somewhat heartening that Nóra found a special to her & beautiful, peaceful spot before her very sad death.

FEARLESS and COMPULSIVE- very important terms for the proper way to look at Nora’s mindset when she left the house.

RIGHT ON and ABSOLUTELY regarding the fetal position Nóra was found in. Thank you for clarifying this. Nora simply curled up on her side and went to sleep with her hands folded prayerfully under her head before she died.
I WOULD THINK THIS WOULD BE A GREAT COMFORT TO HER FAMILY/ LOVED ONES.

How reverently and thoughtfully the description of Nóra was addressed by the wonderful kind volunteers in the search party that found her.

I AM VERY SATISFIED THAT THERE WAS NO FOUL PLAY INVOLVED in Nora’s death.

 

[Legally Bland]

“Nora Quoirin had died “two to three days” before she was found, “no more than four days”, said the Negeri Sembilan police chief. She was missing for 10 days.”

I think the strangest thing is that she ended up at the Waterfall when she died.
How many days had Nora been at the Waterfall before she died?

If she knew thought her family were going there, maybe it's possible she was waiting for them.

 

[MsMiniSleuth]

It says here a ruptured ulcer could of been caused by starvation and stress.
Nora Quoirin probably died of starvation and stress, autopsy finds | UK news | The Guardian

I am just wondering about something like that occurring and causing death in such a short space of time? I could understand more if she had tried to eat something which had poisoned her. Would there not have been blood visible around her mouth or face from this too?