Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #6

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Chiatos said:
The questions by the court have focused somewhat on Nora's going to the toilet and to the presence of a second toilet in the chalet.
I wonder whether we will hear more about that and what the importance of that second toilet might be.
Click to expand...

and also the significance of the sunken bath, the questioning went on and on and on about that
 
HongKongPhooey said:
Good point, I didnt get that at all. Any theories anyone?
Click to expand...
I do have a theory but it's only a theory and pretty wild at that.
I watched both parents testify.
I also watched all the zoom participants and I never saw such bad behaviour on a professional zoom meeting.
Nora's parents spoke slowly and made huge efforts to articulate their words so that the interpreter could easily translate them, they answered every repetitive question with huge patience. Being Irish, I understand inflections in phraseology and what they indicate. Nora's mum is Irish. She did a brilliant job testifying and did not rise to what I perceived as snark and innuendo at times. Her dad was somewhat less patient but he also made a huge effort.

Recall when he was being asked about locks on airplane toilets, if anybody can find it quickly, please observe the two gentlemen who shared a lense. They were almost like, jubilant. Watch their faces and their gestures and tell me what you think and whether you consider it to be appropriate. If you have the time.

I found an old article here.. read it... Eight fingerprints found on window and bloodstains found in bathroom, Nora Quirin's inquest hears.
Direct quote here '
Apart from fingerprint dusting, Wak Rukman also disclosed that luminol – a form of chemical substance used to detect the presence of blood – had detected blood droplets in the bathroom of the villa. ‘But whose blood it belonged to I am not at liberty to say,’ he said referring the court to the crime scene team leader for more detail on this.'Quote ends.

Now what the hell does that mean when added to the example of her walking on a flat surface at an airport?
My theory and I stress it's a theory, not yet an opinion is that the Malaysian authorities screwed up bigtime and they will do whatever it takes to cover that up including implying that the parents are negligent of not outright guilty of foul play. The parents are not suspects but the attitudes demonstrated by many of the zoom window people and the phrasing and repetitive nature of the questions treated them as if they were on trial. That is my opinion.

I did some searching because I got a wild notion that the police might be protecting someone.
I found no evidence but they have been suspected of involvement on a previous abduction of a Shia human rights person.

I was actually searching out child abductions for spiritual reasons having listened to mother's testimony and her theory in that regard. I found nothing.
I'm stumped now and we badly need access to translations of previous police testimonies, they are online but no translations and I would be wary of trusting an app to translate what it is they are saying.
#That place, the Sora, was not the cleanest. I'm not surprised they found blood there, possibly from a previous guest which had not been adequately cleaned. Had it been Nora's blood bigger questions would have been asked before now. They were not, so why even mention it??
I'm not happy about this at all.

ETA Human Rights Watch report dated 2014 on Malaysian police
"No Answers, No Apology"
 
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Worth taking the time to google search Malaysian police and corruption, very many articles from reputable sources.

This article is from January 2020.

In a statement via the Lucie Blackman Trust, Meabh and Sebastien Quoirin said: “We have today learned that the AGC of Malaysia has classified Nóra’s case as ‘no further action’.

“This essentially means that, at this time, there will be no inquest. We are shocked by this decision, not least because it is based on a preliminary report from the coroner’s office.”

The Quoirins said that, to date, they have only received a short explanation from the pathologists who conducted the postmortem in Malaysia, which confirmed the cause of death as gastro-intestinal bleeding and an ulcer, likely brought on by starvation and/or stress.
Nóra Quoirin: Malaysian officials say case needs ‘no further action’
 
'no evidence of abduction' is the constant refrain of The Malaysian police.
There was an unidentified fingerprint on the window, however. There was also a significant delay in the taking of the fingerprints by police according to mother's testimony.

Sharing this article for the photograph of the window.
Now, if the family had been stalked, it would have been very easy for the stalker to watch them all go to bed, wait awhile and then go in and take the child without necessarily leaving fingerprints or any other evidence.
Here's the article, for the photo
Malaysian lawyer suspects Nóra Quoirin was abducted, and says inquest should be held
 
kittythehare said:
Recall when he was being asked about locks on airplane toilets, if anybody can find it quickly, please observe the two gentlemen who shared a lense. They were almost like, jubilant. Watch their faces and their gestures and tell me what you think and whether you consider it to be appropriate. If you have the time.
Click to expand...

I haven’t watched that particular section @kittythehare, but their jubilance, while not appropriate, makes sense knowing that they represent the Dusan Resort. The Quoirins have sued the resort. So the focus of the attorneys is on gathering evidence proving that even if the window locked properly, Nora had the ability to open it. So I assume they figure she could if she could manage an airplane toilet door lock.

I thought this was a second inquest requested by Nora’s parents to try to get more understanding of what could have happened to Nora. But I sensed an adversarial quality to the questioning too. Whether that is due to a defensive posture by LE or the lawsuit, it’s hard to tell. Probably both. I agree that Nora’s mother handled herself admirably. I haven’t watched her father’s testimony yet.

While some of us (and I include myself) question the Quoirin’s choice of this particular resort, Nora sleeping upstairs at the top of a difficult staircase, whether she could have found the bathroom, and the plan to take a 4-6 hour hike, none of this really is relevant to her disappearance IMO. Her parents knew her best and they didn’t see a problem for Nora with any of these issues. I really don’t think they seem irresponsible, even though they made choices I wouldn’t make. And yet, somehow Nora disappeared for 10 days and was found dead in a place she could not have reached on her own, especially barefoot...her feet showing no real signs of injury.

So I agree with the Quoirins that this is a criminal case. I don’t think Nora was targeted. I do think it’s possible the Quoirins were targeted by an opportunistic local burglar who knew they had just arrived and would probably sleep deeply. Traveling from London would indicate that they had money, so perhaps it was hoped that they left something valuable lying around in the main living area. Could Nora have been in the bathroom when the burglar(s) entered and encountered him/her/or them when she came out? She would have frozen and looked down, as she usually did, but the burglar(s) couldn’t know that she probably wouldn’t be able to tell her parents she had seen them, let alone identify them. So a simple burglary could have turned into a kidnapping, Nora being carried away without protest.

I have long believed that she was hidden somewhere secluded and uninjured until she died. The hypothetical burglar(s) now had to figure out what to do with her. I doubt her death was their intention, but what does one do with a special needs young girl? Do you ask the local Shaman for advice? Is he bound to secrecy like a Catholic priest? In the meantime, is Nora not being fed or refusing to eat? In any case, she died 2-3 days before she was found. Didn’t the Shaman predict she would be found soon? And she was. I don’t necessarily believe this was because he had special intuition or spiritual insight. He may have known that she would be placed by the one(s) who took her where she could be found, perhaps upon his advice. I know nothing about the local culture and beliefs, so I don’t mean to offend. I think something equally likely could happen in Western society in similar circumstances.

That’s the best theory my overactive imagination can come up with to explain Nora’s disappearance and uninjured discovery. I’m certainly open to other opinions and fact corrections.
JMO MOO
 
kittythehare said:
Now, if the family had been stalked, it would have been very easy for the stalker to watch them all go to bed, wait awhile and then go in and take the child without necessarily leaving fingerprints or any other evidence.
Click to expand...

I was typing my long theory as you replied, but it looks like we are on the same line of thought.
 
From listening to the inquest agree with all that’s been said here re the quite rude approach and the patience of Nora’s parents. I think this may have been an optimistic abduction. It strikes me as very unlikely that someone came in and took her when other children were there. But think it’s plausible that Nora may have come down to use bathroom or find parents and went out the front door by mistake. Then if she reacted as her mum suggests and just sat there someone may have come along seen the opportunity and took her only realizing later that she was not a normal teen. Now who or why I’ve no idea and who would even be around the property. But there was mention of people having a party so maybe someone leaving that party who had been drinking or high and acted in the moment?
 
Lilibet said:
I haven’t watched that particular section @kittythehare, but their jubilance, while not appropriate, makes sense knowing that they represent the Dusan Resort. The Quoirins have sued the resort. So the focus of the attorneys is on gathering evidence proving that even if the window locked properly, Nora had the ability to open it. So I assume they figure she could if she could manage an airplane toilet door lock.

I thought this was a second inquest requested by Nora’s parents to try to get more understanding of what could have happened to Nora. But I sensed an adversarial quality to the questioning too. Whether that is due to a defensive posture by LE or the lawsuit, it’s hard to tell. Probably both. I agree that Nora’s mother handled herself admirably. I haven’t watched her father’s testimony yet.

While some of us (and I include myself) question the Quoirin’s choice of this particular resort, Nora sleeping upstairs at the top of a difficult staircase, whether she could have found the bathroom, and the plan to take a 4-6 hour hike, none of this really is relevant to her disappearance IMO. Her parents knew her best and they didn’t see a problem for Nora with any of these issues. I really don’t think they seem irresponsible, even though they made choices I wouldn’t make. And yet, somehow Nora disappeared for 10 days and was found dead in a place she could not have reached on her own, especially barefoot...her feet showing no real signs of injury.

So I agree with the Quoirins that this is a criminal case. I don’t think Nora was targeted. I do think it’s possible the Quoirins were targeted by an opportunistic local burglar who knew they had just arrived and would probably sleep deeply. Traveling from London would indicate that they had money, so perhaps it was hoped that they left something valuable lying around in the main living area. Could Nora have been in the bathroom when the burglar(s) entered and encountered him/her/or them when she came out? She would have frozen and looked down, as she usually did, but the burglar(s) couldn’t know that she probably wouldn’t be able to tell her parents she had seen them, let alone identify them. So a simple burglary could have turned into a kidnapping, Nora being carried away without protest.

I have long believed that she was hidden somewhere secluded and uninjured until she died. The hypothetical burglar(s) now had to figure out what to do with her. I doubt her death was their intention, but what does one do with a special needs young girl? Do you ask the local Shaman for advice? Is he bound to secrecy like a Catholic priest? In the meantime, is Nora not being fed or refusing to eat? In any case, she died 2-3 days before she was found. Didn’t the Shaman predict she would be found soon? And she was. I don’t necessarily believe this was because he had special intuition or spiritual insight. He may have known that she would be placed by the one(s) who took her where she could be found, perhaps upon his advice. I know nothing about the local culture and beliefs, so I don’t mean to offend. I think something equally likely could happen in Western society in similar circumstances.

That’s the best theory my overactive imagination can come up with to explain Nora’s disappearance and uninjured discovery. I’m certainly open to other opinions and fact corrections.
JMO MOO
Click to expand...
I think it's unlikely she got up to go to the toilet during the night,parents testified all children used toilet before sleeping, thus her bladder would have been empty. She may have gone downstairs for another reason though, possibly hot and thirsty and wanted a drink, got locked out or met a burglar as you suggest.
I don't believe the shaman was local or likely to have had local contacts or was privy to human information from an alleged kidnapper
Nora's mother offered some theories, they are interesting and worthy of consideration.
Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Mother says teen’s body had suspicious marks, insists abduction was likely | Malay Mail
The Quoirins had access to very good advice and people for this journey.
I believe they know best.
I also believe she did not walk or run or even stagger to where she was found.
Sadly I'm unconvinced Malay police are vested in investigating this further
 
kittythehare said:
I think it's unlikely she got up to go to the toilet during the night,parents testified all children used toilet before sleeping, thus her bladder would have been empty. She may have gone downstairs for another reason though, possibly hot and thirsty and wanted a drink, got locked out or met a burglar as you suggest.
I don't believe the shaman was local or likely to have had local contacts or was privy to human information from an alleged kidnapper
Nora's mother offered some theories, they are interesting and worthy of consideration.
Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Mother says teen’s body had suspicious marks, insists abduction was likely | Malay Mail
The Quoirins had access to very good advice and people for this journey.
I believe they know best.
I also believe she did not walk or run or even stagger to where she was found.
Sadly I'm unconvinced Malay police are vested in investigating this further
Click to expand...

I can't even begin to imagine how frustrating it would be, as a mother, to have your own expertise about your child and how your child always acts and always would react in a certain circumstance questioned. It must be infuriating!
 
Lilibet said:
I haven’t watched that particular section @kittythehare, but their jubilance, while not appropriate, makes sense knowing that they represent the Dusan Resort. The Quoirins have sued the resort. So the focus of the attorneys is on gathering evidence proving that even if the window locked properly, Nora had the ability to open it. So I assume they figure she could if she could manage an airplane toilet door lock.

I thought this was a second inquest requested by Nora’s parents to try to get more understanding of what could have happened to Nora. But I sensed an adversarial quality to the questioning too. Whether that is due to a defensive posture by LE or the lawsuit, it’s hard to tell. Probably both. I agree that Nora’s mother handled herself admirably. I haven’t watched her father’s testimony yet.

While some of us (and I include myself) question the Quoirin’s choice of this particular resort, Nora sleeping upstairs at the top of a difficult staircase, whether she could have found the bathroom, and the plan to take a 4-6 hour hike, none of this really is relevant to her disappearance IMO. Her parents knew her best and they didn’t see a problem for Nora with any of these issues. I really don’t think they seem irresponsible, even though they made choices I wouldn’t make. And yet, somehow Nora disappeared for 10 days and was found dead in a place she could not have reached on her own, especially barefoot...her feet showing no real signs of injury.

So I agree with the Quoirins that this is a criminal case. I don’t think Nora was targeted. I do think it’s possible the Quoirins were targeted by an opportunistic local burglar who knew they had just arrived and would probably sleep deeply. Traveling from London would indicate that they had money, so perhaps it was hoped that they left something valuable lying around in the main living area. Could Nora have been in the bathroom when the burglar(s) entered and encountered him/her/or them when she came out? She would have frozen and looked down, as she usually did, but the burglar(s) couldn’t know that she probably wouldn’t be able to tell her parents she had seen them, let alone identify them. So a simple burglary could have turned into a kidnapping, Nora being carried away without protest.

I have long believed that she was hidden somewhere secluded and uninjured until she died. The hypothetical burglar(s) now had to figure out what to do with her. I doubt her death was their intention, but what does one do with a special needs young girl? Do you ask the local Shaman for advice? Is he bound to secrecy like a Catholic priest? In the meantime, is Nora not being fed or refusing to eat? In any case, she died 2-3 days before she was found. Didn’t the Shaman predict she would be found soon? And she was. I don’t necessarily believe this was because he had special intuition or spiritual insight. He may have known that she would be placed by the one(s) who took her where she could be found, perhaps upon his advice. I know nothing about the local culture and beliefs, so I don’t mean to offend. I think something equally likely could happen in Western society in similar circumstances.

That’s the best theory my overactive imagination can come up with to explain Nora’s disappearance and uninjured discovery. I’m certainly open to other opinions and fact corrections.
JMO MOO
Click to expand...

Extracted and bolded, from long text.

I doubt her death was their intention, but what does one do with a special needs young girl? Do you ask the local Shaman for advice?

In the previous thread we explained the Shaman's role. It is essentially that of intervening when there has been a disturbance, an unequal balance of man with nature. Permission must be sought for hunting an animal, for example.

If this is not respected, the shaman offers prayers and eventual punishment within the community.





 
I followed this case closely from the very start. The entire time she was missing and up until she was found. I clung to every detail.

I always thought this case had some sort of spiritual aspect to it. And what, I could never put my finger on it.

What if Nora felt some sort of strong spiritual calling to prove herself. She always wanted to see the waterfalls and she talked about it before her disappearance. What if she wanted to prove to her family, and herself, that she was more capable than anyone believed. What if she left on her own on a quest to make it to the waterfall. She had to move slowly and she was trepidatious but determined.

After all, she was discovered without physical injuries or sign of sexual assault. Doesn’t really add up that she was abducted.

What if her feet were uninjured because yes it was too difficult terrain for her to walk so she crawled. Determined and on a quest.

A life ending quest.

Much more pleasant to picture sweet Nora accomplishing her task, conquering her fears, proving everyone wrong that she COULD do this, she made it to the waterfall.

Now I’m not glued to this theory, but it’s much nicer to believe than the alternatives and rationally makes more sense MOO.
 
insearchoflight said:
I followed this case closely from the very start. The entire time she was missing and up until she was found. I clung to every detail.

I always thought this case had some sort of spiritual aspect to it. And what, I could never put my finger on it.

What if Nora felt some sort of strong spiritual calling to prove herself. She always wanted to see the waterfalls and she talked about it before her disappearance. What if she wanted to prove to her family, and herself, that she was more capable than anyone believed. What if she left on her own on a quest to make it to the waterfall. She had to move slowly and she was trepidatious but determined.

After all, she was discovered without physical injuries or sign of sexual assault. Doesn’t really add up that she was abducted.

What if her feet were uninjured because yes it was too difficult terrain for her to walk so she crawled. Determined and on a quest.

A life ending quest.

Much more pleasant to picture sweet Nora accomplishing her task, conquering her fears, proving everyone wrong that she COULD do this, she made it to the waterfall.

Now I’m not glued to this theory, but it’s much nicer to believe than the alternatives and rationally makes more sense MOO.
Click to expand...


I agree, this is the scenario I have imagined and hoped for and would be the least painful. The tropical forest is enchanting especially at pre-dawn times
 
insearchoflight said:
I followed this case closely from the very start. The entire time she was missing and up until she was found. I clung to every detail.

I always thought this case had some sort of spiritual aspect to it. And what, I could never put my finger on it.

What if Nora felt some sort of strong spiritual calling to prove herself. She always wanted to see the waterfalls and she talked about it before her disappearance. What if she wanted to prove to her family, and herself, that she was more capable than anyone believed. What if she left on her own on a quest to make it to the waterfall. She had to move slowly and she was trepidatious but determined.

After all, she was discovered without physical injuries or sign of sexual assault. Doesn’t really add up that she was abducted.

What if her feet were uninjured because yes it was too difficult terrain for her to walk so she crawled. Determined and on a quest.

A life ending quest.

Much more pleasant to picture sweet Nora accomplishing her task, conquering her fears, proving everyone wrong that she COULD do this, she made it to the waterfall.

Now I’m not glued to this theory, but it’s much nicer to believe than the alternatives and rationally makes more sense MOO.
Click to expand...
Sadly it does not make rational sense.
Nora's parents have given testimony and they have explained her condition very well.
Links to both are on this thread.
Nora was not high functioning.
She had zero survival skills.
So whether she travelled on her knees, her hands or even levitated, she was incapable of knowing when she was dehydrated and no way to access either food or drink.
It is far more likely she was abducted, Nora only weighed 4st 10lbs, it would not have been difficult for someone to carry her away and abandon her.
Nora Quoirin inquest: father says teenager had no survival instinct
Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Mother says teen’s body had suspicious marks, insists abduction was likely | Malay Mail
 
kittythehare said:
Sadly it does not make rational sense.
Nora's parents have given testimony and they have explained her condition very well.
Links to both are on this thread.
Nora was not high functioning.
She had zero survival skills.
So whether she travelled on her knees, her hands or even levitated, she was incapable of knowing when she was dehydrated and no way to access either food or drink.
It is far more likely she was abducted, Nora only weighed 4st 10lbs, it would not have been difficult for someone to carry her away and abandon her.
Nora Quoirin inquest: father says teenager had no survival instinct
Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Mother says teen’s body had suspicious marks, insists abduction was likely | Malay Mail
Click to expand...
I agree which is why she sadly is deceased.

why would someone abduct her to not harm her, not sexually assault her, just to leave her alone to die?

I’m not saying she wasn’t abducted I’m just trying to look for the truth. I’ve followed every detail of this case.
 
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