Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #7

[Officer Dibble]

I've just watched/listened to the Owner of the land's testiment (she is now retired - why is she testifying??) and she is asked "Who managed the daily runnings of the resort?" the answer was naming two of her children whose names sound like Hanim and Asma (or Astma) but what struck me was she used the past version by saying "H was the manager and A was the assistant manager" She used the words WAS. Not is. Is this old news for us here?

 

[Lilibet]

I've just watched/listened to the Owner of the land's testiment (she is now retired - why is she testifying??) and she is asked "Who managed the daily runnings of the resort?" the answer was naming two of her children whose names sound like Hanim and Asma (or Astma) but what struck me was she used the past version by saying "H was the manager and A was the assistant manager" She used the words WAS. Not is. Is this old news for us here?

The question is in the past tense, referring to the time the Quoirins were at the resort, so that may be why she answered in the past tense. If she had used the present tense that might not be an accurate answer (if managers had changed) because she was asked who “managed” the resort at that time. At least that’s how I hear it. JMO

 

[Ruthbullock]

I have listened to the statement/testimony by the owner.
What stood out was the location where Nora has been found!!! Nora was found West of the Dusun! Not East!
?!*&%!?
So it seems that Nora was found in either Zone 5 or 6!

The water treatment plant is West of the Dusun and Nora was found in the area between the Dusun and the plant.
The owner described that area as having various trails and roads, frequented by locals. Here is a map of the area:

Why is police(?) so focused on the back gate that takes to the East/South East, whereas Nora was found West?

Exactly my thoughts

 

[Ruthbullock]

I have listened to the statement/testimony by the owner.
What stood out was the location where Nora has been found!!! Nora was found West of the Dusun! Not East!
?!*&%!?
So it seems that Nora was found in either Zone 5 or 6!

The water treatment plant is West of the Dusun and Nora was found in the area between the Dusun and the plant.
The owner described that area as having various trails and roads, frequented by locals. Here is a map of the area:

Why is police(?) so focused on the back gate that takes to the East/South East, whereas Nora was found West?

I think perhaps the dogs picked up a scent there. However that would only be of interest if Nora had never walked past the gate, which the parents stated she didn’t do. The owner in her testimony however said she saw the family walk past the gate and leave for another 15 minutes. She did say she didn’t see whether they went left or right, but she saw them come back through 15 minutes later. I identified the back gate as the one towards the very bottom of the map (not the perlang gate)
Ps thanks for all the maps Chiatos, they really help with perspective

 

[Chiatos]

I think perhaps the dogs picked up a scent there. However that would only be of interest if Nora had never walked past the gate, which the parents stated she didn’t do. The owner in her testimony however said she saw the family walk past the gate and leave for another 15 minutes. She did say she didn’t see whether they went left or right, but she saw them come back through 15 minutes later. I identified the back gate as the one towards the very bottom of the map (not the perlang gate)
Ps thanks for all the maps Chiatos, they really help with perspective

I have re-listened to what the owner has said because this "back gate" thing is bugging me even more now that I know(?) that Nora has been found West from the Dusun.

[40:00] Mrs. Todd mentioned clearly that the family went 'out through the Perling gate'. And 10 to 15 minutes later, the family came to the (Perling) pool.
We can deduce two things from this:
- the Perling gate is visible from the pool
- the family couldn't have gone very far outside the gate and be able to come back in 10-15 mins. They must have stayed very near to the gate.

The "Back gate" under scrutiny by the media and by police must indeed be the gate at the bottom of the map, as you say.
"The gate with no name."

When Sebastian gave his testimony, the spot "T" was mentioned specifically (and if I'm not mistaken he called it the back gate). Spot "T" is the Perling gate, and not the gate under scrutiny.

The mystery still remains. How did Nora end up West? In that area with various paths, trails, roads? A palm plantation?

 

[Ruthbullock]

I have re-listened to what the owner has said because this "back gate" thing is bugging me even more now that I know(?) that Nora has been found West from the Dusun.

[40:00] Mrs. Todd mentioned clearly that the family went 'out through the Perling gate'. And 10 to 15 minutes later, the family came to the (Perling) pool.
We can deduce two things from this:
- the Perling gate is visible from the pool
- the family couldn't have gone very far outside the gate and be able to come back in 10-15 mins. They must have stayed very near to the gate.

The "Back gate" under scrutiny by the media and by police must indeed be the gate at the bottom of the map, as you say.
"The gate with no name."

When Sebastian gave his testimony, the spot "T" was mentioned specifically (and if I'm not mistaken he called it the back gate). Spot "T" is the Perling gate, and not the gate under scrutiny.

The mystery still remains. How did Nora end up West? In that area with various paths, trails, roads? A palm plantation?

I am enjoying your analysis, could the sighting by the water treatment plant now be more viable in your opinion? I’m still trying to locate the areas that have been discussed in the past ( as I was just guessing in my head before I saw the map on the testimony). Within the questioning, there seemed to be some mumbling by one of the lawyers about wandering around the bottom of the resort via road, but there were roadblocks set up, although I don’t know how quickly and where the locations of them were.
My thoughts on the roads- there was CCTV on the main gate, so any vehicles would have had to drive past there and would have been seen. Lots of the roads weren’t passable to the left (and is marked on the map as impassable) of the main gate. The road swung round and down passing the temple to the back gate ( and I think this is the route they think Nora took) which could have been done in a vehicle or walking

 

[Ruthbullock]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Crime scene investigator says teen’s body only had scratch marks, insect bites when found, no serious injuries observed otherwise | Malay Mail
A little bit more detail from today’s testimony from CSI witness about where the body was recovered from and what evidence was collected-

 

[kittythehare]

So far the inquest has proven
-Nora did not have the physical ability to reach the place where her body was found.
ast week, Michael Reeves, Nora's former head teacher at Garratt Park School in Wandsworth in south-west London, told the inquest she "wouldn't have the confidence to walk off on her own", because she had "balance issues" and it would be "unimaginable" for her to climb fences.
Intruder was not an impossibility, resort's owner tells Nora Quoirin inquest








-The Sora house was accessible to an intruder.

YET
He also explained how his team failed to find any physical evidence within a 100-metre radius of the body, but that soil samples had been taken from beneath the body and surrounding areas for comparison later on.

Udiasoorian added: “We tried our best to collect evidence at the scene, whether it was cigarette butts or anything else, but there was nothing there except the body which we saw.

“That is why we collected the soil samples for the purpose of comparison if an arrest was made.”
Nora Quoirin found by police lying in foetal position in stream, inquest hears
How is this possible?

 

[Officer Dibble]

The question is in the past tense, referring to the time the Quoirins were at the resort, so that may be why she answered in the past tense. If she had used the present tense that might not be an accurate answer (if managers had changed) because she was asked who “managed” the resort at that time. At least that’s how I hear it. JMO

Interesting. I still don't see it that way but could be possible

 

[Officer Dibble]

Nora Anne Quoirin inquest: Crime scene investigator says teen’s body only had scratch marks, insect bites when found, no serious injuries observed otherwise | Malay Mail
A little bit more detail from today’s testimony from CSI witness about where the body was recovered from and what evidence was collected-

Poor Nora

 

[kittythehare]

Here is a link to earlier inquest livestream.
It's 99.999% Malaysian and no translations are available.
Saving it here for the sake of the case completeness.

 

[Lilibet]

Interesting. I still don't see it that way but could be possible

It’s certainly intriguing.

 

[insearchoflight]

The question remains... if an intruder abducted Nora.. why?

No evidence of sexual assault, no evidence of murder, no evidence of physical harm.

So what then? They took her just to safely leave her near the waterfall to die?

Open to theories, but still I can’t jump the fence on this one that Nora simply left on her own and succumbed to the elements.

She couldn’t have made it, near impossible. That’s just it exactly, she didn’t. She didn’t make it, she is deceased so she was unable to survive on her own in the jungle.

I understand that her physical ailments made everyone believe that it’s near impossible for her to have left on her own and maneuvered to where she was found. Yes I agree, near impossible. But people have been known to accomplish extraordinary things when faced with death.

I just struggle to find a motive to kidnap a teen with special needs, not harm them, not assault them, not murder them, but carry them (not easy) through the jungle to leave them to die of stress.

 

[Chiatos]

Here is a link to earlier inquest livestream.
It's 99.999% Malaysian and no translations are available.
Saving it here for the sake of the case completeness.

Good idea kittythehare!

 

[Chiatos]

The question remains... if an intruder abducted Nora.. why?

No evidence of sexual assault, no evidence of murder, no evidence of physical harm.

So what then? They took her just to safely leave her near the waterfall to die?

Open to theories, but still I can’t jump the fence on this one that Nora simply left on her own and succumbed to the elements.

She couldn’t have made it, near impossible. That’s just it exactly, she didn’t. She didn’t make it, she is deceased so she was unable to survive on her own in the jungle.

I understand that her physical ailments made everyone believe that it’s near impossible for her to have left on her own and maneuvered to where she was found. Yes I agree, near impossible. But people have been known to accomplish extraordinary things when faced with death.

I just struggle to find a motive to kidnap a teen with special needs, not harm them, not assault them, not murder them, but carry them (not easy) through the jungle to leave them to die of stress.

IMO there are 3 possibilities. In random order:
- Nora went independently and by herself
- Someone took her there
- A combination of both (= doesn't differ much from number two)
There could be a number of reasons for numbers two and three: superstition towards her handicap, malice towards the resort, ransom purposes or other purposes summed up by the parents

 

[kittythehare]

IMO there are 3 possibilities. In random order:
- Nora went independently and by herself
- Someone took her there
- A combination of both (= doesn't differ much from number two)
There could be a number of reasons for numbers two and three: superstition towards her handicap, malice towards the resort, ransom purposes or other purposes summed up by the parents

Well we know, if we are to believe expert testimony and witness testimony that it would have been impossible for her to get there by herself. I do believe them. Why not?

I'm interested in your third point, well made.
I hadn't considered superstition. I will now. Thank you.

Malice towards resort is a possibility.

It makes no sense at all, yet it happened.
And a child, Nora, is dead.
Some how. Some way.
Awaiting British pathological report and testimony... but I doubt it will provide a rationale and we will be forever speculating.

 

[Chiatos]

Apparently(?) there are two water treatment plants near the Dusun:
- East from the Dusun and towards the touristic waterfall of Berembun; Berembun Forest Reserve, Negeri Sembilan - Rainforest Journal
- West from the Dusun; SAINS / Ngoi Ngoi (see map I have posted yesterday)

 

[Chiatos]

The spot where Nora's body has been found was known to the owner. Mrs. Todd had walked there several times.
Now I'm asking myself: the waterfall hike offered by the resort, is it the hike to the East, towards Berembun, or is it a hike towards the West?
See: Into the jungle at The Dusun, Seremban - Happy Go KL

This is the very same spot (see the sign on tree trunk and the very same rocks) where search and rescue team members have been combing the jungle:

'Retrieving Nora Quoirin's body no easy task' | New Straits Times

 

[Chiatos]

A description of the spot -West from the Dusun- where Nora was found:
After being informed of the discovery of the body at 1.57pm on Tuesday, search-and-rescue (SAR) team members got into several vehicles, including fourwheel-drives, and rushed to the location some 2.5km from the resort where she was reported missing on Aug 4.

However, the jungle track became too narrow for the vehicles and the team had to continue on foot, walking another 500m along slippery and steep slopes, made more treacherous by roots and stones.

A member of the team, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the team had to wade through two deep streams.

... the body would be winched out on a helicopter to save time. This was because carrying her body through the treacherous terrain would have taken some time.

'Retrieving Nora Quoirin's body no easy task' | New Straits Times

 

[Ruthbullock]

Apparently(?) there are two water treatment plants near the Dusun:
- East from the Dusun and towards the touristic waterfall of Berembun; Berembun Forest Reserve, Negeri Sembilan - Rainforest Journal
- West from the Dusun; SAINS / Ngoi Ngoi (see map I have posted yesterday)

IMO, but it could be scaling, and I still can’t locate the area well on anything I use, the water plant on the west looks too far away from the resort to be where she was spotted (possibly) by the worker. She would have been very close to her final resting place, too early on .
Not much help and just as guess- I need an ordinance survey map.