Found Deceased Malaysia - Nora Quoirin, 15, from UK, special needs, missing on vacation, Seremban, 4 Aug 2019 #7

[Skigh]

It’s all so tragically sad, but whatever happened to Nora I don’t think the resort should be sued. They chose that place knowing full well it was remote and rustic, they can’t have expected the sort of security you’d get at a larger complex. Surely that was all part of the charm. Back to nature.

I totally agree. There were plenty of videos and reviews, so they could have been in no doubt about the facilities the resort offered.
I feel desperately sorry for them,but suing the resort,in my opinion, is not fair .

 

[Chiatos]

More than 20 years ago an 11 year old Dutch boy (Nicky Verstappen) went missing from his tent at night while camping with other boy scouts.

His body was found at a distance of about 1,5 km.

He had disappeared without his shoes. His feet showed no traces of having walked that distance. Police understood immediately that must have been abducted by someone.
He was however, wearing his underwear and pyjama (inside out).
And it was his clothes that led to the perp, 20 years later. His clothes kept the dna traces of the perp.

If it wouldn't have been for his clothes, the perp perhaps wouldn't have been found.
Although police was pretty sure he couldn't have walked there by himself.

But we must assume that Nora did? At night? Her feet?
No clothes, no traces...

 

[Zuleika]

I understood it’s more the window catch of the property that wasn’t paid attention to that’s the reason for sueing .

 

[Zuleika]

I understood it’s more the window catch of the property that wasn’t paid attention to that’s the reason for sueing .

 

[Officer Dibble]

More than 20 years ago an 11 year old Dutch boy (Nicky Verstappen) went missing from his tent at night while camping with other boy scouts.

His body was found at a distance of about 1,5 km.

He had disappeared without his shoes. His feet showed no traces of having walked that distance. Police understood immediately that must have been abducted by someone.
He was however, wearing his underwear and pyjama (inside out).
And it was his clothes that led to the perp, 20 years later. His clothes kept the dna traces of the perp.

If it wouldn't have been for his clothes, the perp perhaps wouldn't have been found.
Although police was pretty sure he couldn't have walked there by himself.

But we must assume that Nora did? At night? Her feet?
No clothes, no traces...

Thanks for sharing this, you raise some very good points

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I understood it’s more the window catch of the property that wasn’t paid attention to that’s the reason for sueing .

Yeah I get that, but still don’t think it’s entirely fair.

 

[Zuleika]

But doesn't the whole case of a deceased Nora hinge on that window as a means for her to have got out of the property ? A case of "if only "?[ it hadn't been ]
Or an abductor to have gained entry ?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

But doesn't the whole case of a deceased Nora hinge on that window as a means for her to have got out of the property ? A case of "if only "?[ it hadn't been ]
Or an abductor to have gained entry ?

If there was absolute proof someone entered through the window and kidnapped her, and that that was a tangible risk, then maybe. But you can’t legislate for someone leaving a building of their own accord. You can’t legislate for a teenager not screaming her head off while getting abducted.

I’ve stayed in similar resorts in Malaysia and neighbouring countries, and 100% security is not an expectation. For example, I always put valuables in a waterproof bag when I went out to the beach or wherever (could even take it into the sea) rather than risk leaving things like money and passports at the accommodation. I do not do this in larger, more equipped hotels. This was not a European standard modern complex with locks/safes/security/cctv.

I had hoped Nora’s parents brought this negligence case as a means to force it to a court inquest and thorough legal investigation, rather than because they truly believe that the resort deserves to be punished. I do not subscribe to the blame/claim culture of the west. Different world, different experience, different expectations.

It is completely tragic what happened. But if someone took Nora, it is that persons fault, not the Dusuns. Again, my opinion only.

 

[Cherwell]

I thought I read somewhere that the main outside door was left unlocked anyway - or am I mistaken?

 

[HongKongPhooey]

If there was absolute proof someone entered through the window and kidnapped her, and that that was a tangible risk, then maybe. But you can’t legislate for someone leaving a building of their own accord. You can’t legislate for a teenager not screaming her head off while getting abducted.

I’ve stayed in similar resorts in Malaysia and neighbouring countries, and 100% security is not an expectation. For example, I always put valuables in a waterproof bag when I went out to the beach or wherever (could even take it into the sea) rather than risk leaving things like money and passports at the accommodation. I do not do this in larger, more equipped hotels. This was not a European standard modern complex with locks/safes/security/cctv.

I had hoped Nora’s parents brought this negligence case as a means to force it to a court inquest and thorough legal investigation, rather than because they truly believe that the resort deserves to be punished. I do not subscribe to the blame/claim culture of the west. Different world, different experience, different expectations.

It is completely tragic what happened. But if someone took Nora, it is that persons fault, not the Dusuns. Again, my opinion only.

I totally agree re the window not being to blame. That would assume too many coincidences that would have had to align for a random abduction.

An abductor being in the location. Abductor chancing the window and finding it unlatched. Nora being submissive and silent. Siblings not waking when the abductor carried Nora down the spiral staircase. Parents shutting their bedroom door due to an outside light. Parents not waking from a deep slumber. Abductor getting away with Nora, unseen and unheard.

I know we have discussed many variables to all of these points. We can debate whether Nora had gone down to the loo for instance, but again that timing would have to be precise coincidence.

If it was carefully planned, following intense observation (a few hours?), an insider who knew about the window, maybe it would play a bigger part - I cant see this though. What motive and who?

My thoughts are no further forward at this point. I wonder if the inquest is unlocking any answers for her family? Can only hope so.

JMO

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I hope so too, HKP. It’s a real head scratcher and my opinion changes regularly. I’m just surprised they haven’t found evidence to sway the conclusion either way, but from what we’ve heard I think it’ll have to be an open verdict.

 

[Cascadia Mount]

If there was absolute proof someone entered through the window and kidnapped her, and that that was a tangible risk, then maybe. But you can’t legislate for someone leaving a building of their own accord. You can’t legislate for a teenager not screaming her head off while getting abducted.
Agree. They knew it was a rustic place and ruining this business won't bring Nora back.
I’ve stayed in similar resorts in Malaysia and neighbouring countries, and 100% security is not an expectation. For example, I always put valuables in a waterproof bag when I went out to the beach or wherever (could even take it into the sea) rather than risk leaving things like money and passports at the accommodation. I do not do this in larger, more equipped hotels. This was not a European standard modern complex with locks/safes/security/cctv.

I had hoped Nora’s parents brought this negligence case as a means to force it to a court inquest and thorough legal investigation, rather than because they truly believe that the resort deserves to be punished. I do not subscribe to the blame/claim culture of the west. Different world, different experience, different expectations.

It is completely tragic what happened. But if someone took Nora, it is that persons fault, not the Dusuns. Again, my opinion only.

 

[Cascadia Mount]

It's impossible to rule out sexual assault because of lack of evidence. There are a lot of forms of sexual assault that would not leave physical marks

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It's impossible to rule out sexual assault because of lack of evidence. There are a lot of forms of sexual assault that would not leave physical marks

Very true. Though I much prefer the "there is no evidence of..." version for Nora's sake. That said, it would of course provide a possible motive.

 

[Zuleika]

I hope so too, HKP. It’s a real head scratcher and my opinion changes regularly. I’m just surprised they haven’t found evidence to sway the conclusion either way, but from what we’ve heard I think it’ll have to be an open verdict.

Yes , I think an open verdict is most likely .

 

[Cascadia Mount]

Yes , I think an open verdict is most likely .

I think so too. It seems like they are just repeating information that was already released. If the British pathologists had discovered something that contradicted the first autopsy the Quoirins would probably not have needed to wait for an inquest. Very sad.

 

[Cascadia Mount]

I'm from the West Coast of the United States and it's pretty common for families to go camping and stay at retreats/resorts with just cabins--kind of like the Dusun. So at first it didn't seem noticeable to me that the place was unsecured. It does now.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Can I just check this is the renamed and revamped Sora House? If so, it looks like the windows got replaced to non-opening versions (on the right, picture 4)

Tapir House

 

[Chiatos]

Can I just check this is the renamed and revamped Sora House? If so, it looks like the windows got replaced to non-opening versions (on the right, picture 4)

Tapir House

Yes it's the same house. The owners were going to refurbish it and had planned to replace the windows.
And they renamed it (I also would have done if I were them).

 

[Chiatos]

Nicky: no absolute proof
In the case of Nicky there was no proof of someone having entered the tent.
No proof of Nicky having been snatched from the tent.
No proof of Nicky having been snatched outside the tent.
His group mates never heard a sound and didn't wake up.
When they woke up in the morning they realised that Nicky was missing.
There had been no known precedents at that camp site.
The coroner at that time, found no absolute proof that Nicky had been abused sexually.
The coroner at that time, was not able to determine the exact cause of death.

Nicky: red flags
Nicky's bare feet in combination with the distance at which he had been found was a red flag.
His underwear and pyjama were inside out.
Partial DNA traces were found on his underwear and pyjama, but insufficient to form a profile and even so to find a match.

Nicky: the traces found on his clothing
Only almost 20 years later a dna profile could be reconstructed by means of new techniques (enhancement).
Large scale dna investigation brought police to identify the perp.


Back to Nora: cause of death has been found to be an ulcer etc., of course it must be.
But there seem to be some similarities with the case above. I honestly can't believe that Nora walked all that way barefoot without having any traces on her feet.